View source for Testwiki:Village pump (technical)/Archive 43

{{Wikipedia:Village pump/Archive header}}

== Something funny going on ==

I've noticed at the [[Communist Party of Great Britain]] article. It seems to miss out an entire paragraph of text in the 1940s and 1950s section. The text appears when you edit, but dissapears when you save it or look at a preview.

The text in question is suposed to be: (I've had to use <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki> because it does the same thing here)

*<nowiki>The party's membership peaked during 1943, reaching around 60,000<ref name="To Build A New Jerusalem"/>. Despite boasting some leading intellectuals, especially among the [[Communist Party Historians Group]], the party was still tiny compared to its continental European counterparts. The [[Communist Party of France|French Communist Party]] for instance had 800,000 members, and the [[Italian Communist Party]] had 1.7 million members<ref name="To Build A New Jerusalem"/>. The Party tried, unsuccessfully, to affiliate to the Labour Party in 1935, 43 and 46.</nowiki>

*<nowiki>In 1951 the party issued a programme called ''The [[British Road to Socialism]]'' (officially adopted at the 22nd Congress in April 1952), which explicitly advocated the possibility of a peaceful reformist transition to socialism - but only after it had been personally approved by Stalin himself<ref>Geoff Andrews, ''Endgames and New Times,'' Lawrence and Wishart, 2004, p 74, p 90</ref>. The importance of this document is that it implicitly renounces the revolutionary purpose for which the party was founded in the first instance. The BRS would remain the programme of the CPGB until its dissolution in 1991 albeit in amended form and even today is the programme of the [[Communist Party of Britain]] which claims political continuity with the CPGB.</nowiki>

But when you save it or preview it, it appears:

*<nowiki>The party's membership peaked during 1943, reaching around 60,000<ref name="To Build A New Jerusalem"/>. Despite boasting some leading intellectuals, especially among the [[Communist Party Historians Group]], the party was still tiny compared to its continental European counterparts. The [[Communist Party of France|French Communist Party]] for instance had 800,000 members, and the [[Italian Communist Party]] had 1.7 million members<ref name="To Build A New Jerusalem"/>. The Party tried, unsuccessfully, to affiliate to the Labour Party in 1935, 43 and 46.''</nowiki>

*In 1951 the party issued a programme called ''The [[British Road to Socialism]]'' (officially adopted at the 22nd Congress in April 1952), which explicitly advocated the possibility of a peaceful reformist transition to socialism - but only after it had been personally approved by Stalin himself<ref>Geoff Andrews, ''Endgames and New Times,'' Lawrence and Wishart, 2004, p 74, p 90</ref>. The importance of this document is that it implicitly renounces the revolutionary purpose for which the party was founded in the first instance. The BRS would remain the programme of the CPGB until its dissolution in 1991 albeit in amended form and even today is the programme of the [[Communist Party of Britain]] which claims political continuity with the CPGB.

Anyone know what's going on? [[User:G-Man|<font color="blue">G-Man</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:G-Man|<font color="#00BFFF">?</font>]]</sup> 21:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:One of the refs was missing a closing <code></ref></code> tag -- now fixed. BTW, the standard format is for the refs to come after the punctuation (periods, commas etc) - a bunch of those need to be fixed in this article.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 21:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::Actually, there is no requirement for the reference to be after the punctuation, rather, usage should be consistent within an article. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Well there should be! Punctuation after the refs looks ugly and is certainly non-standard for print media, in my experience.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 21:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::::I prefer ref then punctuation myself, but it's not one of my pet peeves (of which, devoted readers, you may have noticed I have many). [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 21:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I see, a simple little thing like a missing / huh! Thanks. [[User:G-Man|<font color="blue">G-Man</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:G-Man|<font color="#00BFFF">?</font>]]</sup> 22:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

:See [[WP:EFAQ#REFTAGERR]]. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 15:08, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

== Altering block lengths ==

Has anyone ever proposed an extend/shorten block function? It is a fairly often occurrence to see an admin unblock a user just to block them again. I think it would be a useful function and not that hard to implement. - [[User:Icewedge|Icewedge]] ([[User talk:Icewedge|talk]]) 05:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

{{phab|12080}}.  It's been fixed a couple of times, but there were problems and the fixes got reverted. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 14:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

== Problem/hack/unseen... for so long? ==

{{resolved}}
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ESCB&action=history shows the last change as 10:42, 24 May 2004, but [[ESCB]] appears strange. All the best.
:Strange how?  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 20:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
::[[ESCB]] is a standard redirect to [[European System of Central Banks]].&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 20:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
::For a little while it appeared as stolen, as if to be shown as a form of a userpage. Maybe I can bring back from my cache the former looks of it. It would speed things up if someone provided the path of firefox's cache on winXP.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/78.30.153.144|78.30.153.144]] ([[User talk:78.30.153.144|talk]]) 20:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::It was just template vandalism on [[Template:Central banks of the European Union]], I think.  [[User:Alai]] shot it down pretty fast, nothing to see here.  {{mono|:-)}}  --[[User talk:Grey Knight|<span style="color:#0000ff;">Grey Knight</span>]] [[User:Grey Knight|<span style="color:#777777;">⊖</span>]] 21:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
== Line break before #switch ==

Because there's a line break that occurs before a #switch, I'm having trouble creating a reliable template that returns a colour, as having a pound sign at the beginning of a line causes an unordered list.  For example:
<pre>{| style="color:{{#switch:|#FF0000}};"
|-
| Test
|}</pre>
becomes
{| style="color:{{#switch:|#FF0000}};"
|-
| Test
|}

I found that putting nowiki tags around the pound sign works (e.g. <code>&lt;nowiki&gt;#&lt;/nowiki&gt;FF0000</code>) but I'm wondering if there is a more concise solution for the line break. —<font face="Verdana">[[User:LOL|LOL]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:LOL|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/LOL|C]]</sub></font> 05:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:This is a common problem, it can be circumvented by using {{TL|!}} in pace of the bar. - [[User:Icewedge|Icewedge]] ([[User talk:Icewedge|talk]]) 06:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:: I can't seem to get it working with {{tl|!}}; could you please demonstrate the solution by modifying the example above? —<font face="Verdana">[[User:LOL|LOL]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:LOL|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/LOL|C]]</sub></font> 07:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

<pre>{| style="color:#{{#switch:|FF0000}};"
|-
| Test
|}</pre>
{| style="color:#{{#switch:|FF0000}};"
|-
| Test
|}

Is that something like that you want? &mdash; [[User:Chandler|chan]][[User_talk:Chandler|dler]] &mdash; 07:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:That would work for hex values but not for named colors e.g. <tt>color:red</tt> would fail if a "#" is added. It would not be unreasonable for a switch statement to contain a mixture of these. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 12:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:: I've definitely considered putting the pound sign outside the switch, but I'd have to make changes to the template by converting all the HTML colour names to hex and modifying the pages that transclude the template.  However, if that's the only solution besides the inconcise <code>&lt;nowiki&gt;#&lt;nowiki&gt;</code>, I'd prefer to do that.  Thanks all for the input. —<font face="Verdana">[[User:LOL|LOL]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:LOL|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/LOL|C]]</sub></font> 16:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::If you change all the colors in the template to hex and put the pound sign outside of the switch, you shouldn't have to make any changes to the pages using this template, as far as I can see. --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 20:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You could use something like <tt style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">style="color:rgb(255,0,0)"</tt> and no "#" would be needed. This format would also be easier for users unfamiliar with base-16 but I have no idea whether IE supports it. Let me know if you don't see red. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 17:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

:IE7 supports it, I have no idea of earlier versions though. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 19:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't use <code>rgb(255,0,0)</code> because it doesn't work in <code><nowiki><font color="rgb(255,0,0)"></nowiki></code>.  It turns out that there's even a line break at the transclusion of the template, so <code><nowiki>#{{#switch:|FF0000}}</nowiki></code> also produces the ordered list.  As hopefully the best solution at present, I've removed the pound sign from the template and added pound signs to the transcluding pages. —<font face="Verdana">[[User:LOL|LOL]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:LOL|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/LOL|C]]</sub></font> 00:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

== Categories and Special:PrefixIndex ==

Hello, I have a couple of questions.

*When using Special:PrefixIndex, are there any other search functions available? In particular, is it possible
** to search for all pages with a certain category?
** to search for pages without any category?

*When listing the pages in a certain category, is it possible to sort them other than alphabetically? For example, in order of page creation date.

Thanks in advance. [[User:Msgj|MSGJ]] ([[User talk:Msgj|talk]]) 08:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:* Try [http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php Cat Scan] on the tool server. (sometimes slow) --[[User:Apoc2400|Apoc2400]] ([[User talk:Apoc2400|talk]]) 19:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

== Off-site sandbox ==

I was wondering if there were any good alternatives to Wikipedia itself for off-site sandboxing? Wikipedia too frequently stalls when loading a page (have to hit refresh), or is slow in other regards when making frequent rapid edits. Can anyone recommend a good place, or even software that resides on a user's local hard disk? Compatibility with Wikipedia's templates is a plus. Thanks! [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 22:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:The MediaWiki software that Wikipedia runs is freely available; you could easily download and install it on your own website, or even run it on your own computer (with some configuration). Just click the "powered by" button at the bottom-right of any page. [[User:EVula|EVula]] <span style="color: #999;">// [[User talk:EVula|talk]] // [[User:EVula/admin|<span style="color: #366;">&#9775;</span>]] //</span> 22:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I was hoping for something more newbie-friendly. I'm not that techno-savvy. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 22:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

== Should media wiki prompt when categorizing images here, where the images are on commons ==

I was looking at new image pages[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ANewPages&namespace=6&username=], and noticed that many of the images are where a user has categorized an image that is on commons here, so the image page only consists of a category. There are also some instances where it is just basic testing or vandalism. Is there any way to have the user prompted before adding a description or category to a non-existant image? I was also thinking this might be something for a bot and a template notice. I've been sandboxing a template notice based on {{tl|Un-commons}}  at one of my sandboxes ([[User:Optigan13/Sandbox 2]]). -[[User:Optigan13|Optigan13]] ([[User talk:Optigan13|talk]]) 05:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
== What's in a (ref) name? ==

Hello everyone.

Sometimes, when editing an article and, more specifically, adding references, the <code>ref name</code> instructions trip me up. Namely, I tend to type <code>refname</code> instead of <code>ref name</code> in both of the pieces of code where the words <code>"ref name"</code> are needed, which means that the article has these big error messages or has some code in it or something, meaning that I have to go back and look through it again and see what went wrong.

My request is this. Could you change the list of Wikimarkup instructions so that <code><refname = "x"> ... </ref></code> and <code><refname = "x"/></code> also work, just like <code><nowiki>{{Reflist}}</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki><references/></nowiki></code> both work? [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 09:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:I'm guessing the devs will say no. The idea is to be XML compatible I suspect. (I already find it annoying enough that it allows you to not include " around the actual name. Also, {{tl|reflist}} is just a template that includes <code><nowiki><references/></nowiki></code>. The two situations are not comparable. --[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 01:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
::What do you mean? I did use quotes, didn't I? [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 08:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, but you didn't have to. Allowing <code><nowiki><ref name=foo></nowiki></code> to work is bad XML. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 09:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Well for better or worse we also allow quotes to be omitted for other tags like <tt><font color=red>&lt;font color=red/&gt;</font></tt>, but I did notice that this is tidied up by the software (quotes around "red" are absent in the wikitext but present in the rendered html). — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 17:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
::::And besides everybody knows that [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes|quotes in ref tags are bad juju]] [[Image:Smiley.svg|15px|]]. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 17:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Well, guys, look, Wikipedia is about imparting knowledge to its readers, right? And, hence, the easier its editors' jobs are, the better. Moreover, Wikipedia does not set out to teach people XML (as far as I'm aware), and if you're a purist, there is nothing stopping you using the more orthodox commands. [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 18:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not going to happen.  It's all very well to suggest allowing all sorts of weird syntaxes to be forgiving of mistakes, but there are conceptual costs too.  Every alternative way you allow of doing things creates that much more confusion.  People will see <nowiki><refname></nowiki> and assume it's invalid, try to fix it, and only then realize that both ways are valid.  There's a lot of merit in having only way way to do things.  It makes things simpler and gives people fewer things to learn.  Having many obscure constructs that do the same thing, even in the name of being forgiving of errors, is worse than having a single well-known construct that does one thing.

Moreover, the way this is set up internally currently requires matching start/end tags, and does not allow tags like <nowiki><x=y></nowiki> (only <nowiki><x y=z></nowiki>).  This would not be very trivial to do. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 14:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

:: It would be trivial to set up a {{tl|rename}} tag which did something similar to this though, <tt><nowiki>{{refname|foo|blahblahblah}}</nowiki></tt> resolving to <tt><nowiki><ref name="foo">blahblahblah</ref></nowiki></tt>. Comments? [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 14:59, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

::: You'd actually have to use [[Help:Magic words#Formatting|#tag syntax]], but it <span class="plainlinks">[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Anomie/Sandbox4&oldid=227927993 could be created easily enough]</span>. I don't really see the point though, especially since you have to remember to use "2=" (or "c=" in my version) whenever your content contains an equal sign. I guess with the named parameters it could make the wikitext slightly easier to read if #tag would have to be used anyway. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 00:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:OK, thanks for the feedback, guys, and I can see where you are all coming from so this proposal can be scrapped. [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 18:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

== Bug: revisions/pagesizes/pagerendering/wikisource not matching up, resulting in blanking or page replacements ==

Did [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Popular_Culture&oldid=227950332 this edit] accidentally blank the page?  It showed up in the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Popular_Culture&action=history page history] as 14,490 bytes (edit @ 03:45, 26 July 2008), but when I load that revision, it's blank.  The revision I reverted to is not blank.  Can anyone confirm that the linked-to revision is blank, and has anyone seen similar problems?--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 04:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:Weird. I can confirm that the revision appears blank and has no wikisource despite it showing up in the page history with a size of 14,490 bytes. I don't know why this is happening. —[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|reply]]) 04:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:: Weird indeed! I'd call this one a bug. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 05:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Another instance [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hadiqa_Kiyani&diff=prev&oldid=227949863]. Check the editor's history. A long string of good faith additions using HotCat, and in the middle of the string you get a blanking. 4 minutes apart in time from Goose's edit.

:::I saw yet another instance, but don't remember where. Notice that servers have been playing up a lot on the last 12 hours or so, constantly go into read-only mode. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 05:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:::: Yep, could very well be related to the recent problems with the servers. It's not unusual to visit Wikipedia and have to wait a minute or two for the page to load. However, I've recently (in the past 24 hours) been receiving the "this page will not load" errors IMMEDIATELY, which means that the servers have been offline for a few seconds at the very least when I was visiting. Which is a huge problem. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 06:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Something weird is happening. Go to the page [[Fairy Queen]]. It looks fine...but now click the edit button. Instead one gets the wikisource for the [[Blue Angels]] article. What's going on? —[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|reply]]) 04:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:I had a similar problem at [[Crystal_Lake,_Newton]] with what became an old revision of the page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crystal_Lake%2C_Newton&oldid=227957504]. -- User:Docu

::It looks fine to me. The article mentions the Blue Angels a few times so perhaps that's the text you saw that helped you mistakenly identify the article? <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 05:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

::::It looks fine ''now'' because [[User:Slakr]] reverted my edit which apparently caused MediaWiki to bug out. But look at that 23:35, 25 July 2008 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&oldid=227955783] edit of mine: reported page size of 901 bytes in the page history, but that revision is clearly far larger than 901 bytes and is bizarrely a copy of the [[Blue Angels]] article, even though I was just trying to add a few words to the article. And if you look at the diff, it looks like I attempted to replace the article with the Blue Angels article. And I'm not sure what you mean by "the article mentions the Blue Angels a few times"; the Fairy Queen article ''doesn't'' mention the Blue Angels, except in the buggy revision. —[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|reply]]) 09:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:::The previous version of the [[Fairy Queen]] article is at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&oldid=225360051]. Given what happened at Crystal Lake, I don't think Loaellian overwrote it with a version of [[Blue Angels]]. -- User:Docu

::::Definitely not.  The edit history shows his version as about 900 bytes, but the "Blue Angels" page has more than that in the infobox alone. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 06:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:::::Just to clarify that something very weird is happening, here is what happened: I attempted to add a handful of words to the 02:50, 13 July 2008 revision [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&oldid=225360051] to get the 23:35, 25 July 2008 revision [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&oldid=227955783]; if you look at the reported page byte sizes, 874 and 901, they back up that this is what happened (901 bytes is far, far smaller than the Blue Angels article). However, if you look at the diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&diff=227955783&oldid=225360051] or the revision [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_Queen&oldid=227955783], it looks like I overwrote the [[Fairy Queen]] article with the [[Blue Angels]] article, which is not what I did! —[[User:Lowellian|Lowellian]] ([[User talk:Lowellian|reply]]) 09:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

::::::I had the same problem earlier tonight at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3APikachu&diff=227969847&oldid=227965808 Talk:Pikachu]].  However, I saw the edit I was trying to do show up (along with the rest of the page) and didn't realize that the talk page had been blanked until I noticed another user revert my edit a few minutes later. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Mrrph-mph!]])</sup></font> 09:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#SYSTEM_BUG:_rollback_replaced_a_page_by_an_irrelevant_page_instead_of_reverting|See AN/I for related discussion and diffs]].<span style="white-space:nowrap"><font face="Harlow Solid Italic">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<font size="2px" color="teal"> « Gonzo fan2007</font>]] ''([[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|talk]] ♦ [[Special:Contributions/Gonzo_fan2007|contribs]]) @ ''</font></span> 09:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:Now filed as [[bugzilla:14933|bug 14933: "New revisions occasionally created with wrong text on enwiki"]].  —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 11:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

*Cool, I accidentally on purpose discovered a bug! Just for some extra info, when I initially made [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Popular_Culture&oldid=227950332 this first edit], I did so by clicking the "edit section" button, not "edit this page". I also previewed the page several times before submitting. --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 14:46, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

It should have stopped happening now. The corrupted revisions might be able to be recovered after we find someone to fix the damaged server (maybe not on a Sunday). -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 21:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
:It's still happening: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)&diff=228201285&oldid=228200786]. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 16:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry, I broke that test case. Yes it's disturbing, and I'm looking into the cause, but it's not showing DB corruption in that case. It looks like the anomalous blank revisions are just cache pollution, and will fix themselves when the cache expires in a week. The revisions that show the wrong article are due to database corruption, and will need to be fixed manually. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 13:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

== Link problem: parser? ==

Can someone explain to me why the link in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kermit_the_Hermit&diff=228143583&oldid=228096180 this diff] is not working as I wish it to? It seems to be placing a space after the equals sign in the parser. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 06:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

:You have to urlencode quotes (as well as spaces, plusses if they don't represent spaces, and any other special characers), like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kermit_the_Hermit&diff=228155144&oldid=228143813 this]. --[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 08:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

== [[Cuil]] not showing Wikipedia hits ==

I have been trying the new search engine [[Cuil]] which was produced by former [[Google]] engineers. I have found very few Wikipedia hits in the search results. Am I doing something wrong? Is this just how the search engine works?--[[User:Filll|Filll]] ([[User talk:Filll#top|talk]] | [[User:Filll/WP Challenge|<font color="Green"><small>wpc</small></font>]]) 15:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
:"Too many high-ranking Wikipedia entries in Google" is a complaint that's been bandied about a lot &mdash; directed both here and at Google &mdash; so conceivably they might have built the system in such a way that this doesn't happen so much.  I tried a few queries and got a few results from Wikipedia, so we aren't being blacklisted or anything.  {{mono|:-)}}  --<span style="color:blue">[[User talk:Grey Knight|<sub>tiny plastic</sub> Grey Knight]]</span> <span style="color:#777">[[User:tiny plastic Grey Knight|&#x2296;]]</span> 15:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::We are clearly very highly penalized though, a search for "Prodego" turns up wikipedia mirrors, not wikipedia. <span>[[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]]</span> 17:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

:I'd just chalk it up to Cuil not being a very good search engine.  Whenever I search for something, I tend to get a lot of irrelevant results. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 21:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

== userrights log ==

I'm reasonably confident that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=2006&month=1 this] is not right - since when should none &rarr; none rights changes be logged? What seems to have happened is that the groups promoted to (bureaucrat and sysop) are not recognised for some reason. Something to take to bugzilla? [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 17:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The older sections of the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=&page=&year=2006&month=1 user rename log] are also corrupted. Have there been any recent changes to the way the logs are stored or rendered that could be causign this? [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 17:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The corruption to the user rename log [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&offset=20070827104710&type=renameuser&year=2007&month=8 begins] sometime between 20:23 August 23 2007 and 17:28 August 25 2007. The corruption to the userrights log [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=rights&user=&page=&year=2006&month=8 begins] between 15:13 July 31 2006 and 03:37 August 3 2006. Just dumping detail in here as I find it. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 17:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


:Rights promotions done by bureaucrats used to be shown that way, with a summary of +sysop. Back then, the "from $1 to $2" part did not exist in the local message, it was only used by stewards on meta. This was back when the [[Special:Makesysop]] extension was used. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=rights&page=User:Prodego. The same thing (the logging method changing) happened to the renameuser log. <span>[[User:Prodego|<span style="color:darkgreen;">''Prodego''</span>]] [[User talk:Prodego|<sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk</sup>]]</span> 17:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::See also: [[bugzilla:13889]]. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 22:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
== Template limit ==

I was recently told by two different people that, a) there is a limit on the number templates a page may have (including any templates used internally by other templates) and, b) the wiki will stop processing templates if it takes longer than 30 seconds to evaluate them. Which is true, or are both statements accurate? Also, does the 30 second limit apply to a single template or the sum of all templates in a page? Thanks! [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 23:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

:The template limits are documented at [[Wikipedia:Template limits]]. There are limits on how long a page can take to parse and how much memory can be used in the course of parsing, but I don't know if they are documented anywhere. It's much more common to encounter the template limits first, since their goal is to prevent the most common reasons that a page might be too expensive to parse. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 00:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

::Thank you! I've noticed that [[Chronology of tactical role-playing video games|this]] article takes a long time to load since I switched to using templates for the dates. Here is the message from the HTML source:

::<blockquote>''"NewPP limit report<br/>Preprocessor node count: 196354/1000000<br/>Post-expand include size: 297426/2048000 bytes<br/>Template argument size: 122988/2048000 bytes<br/>Expensive parser function count: 258/500"''</blockquote>

::I was wondering if I am maybe pushing it with regard to template use. Most of the values aren't really near the limits, yet the affect upon page load times is nonetheless considerable. Finally, within the template itself ({{tiw|Vgrtbl}}) I would like to replace some of the common operations with additional templates in order to simplify the source code. What effect will this have upon the above limits? Would you recommend this action? [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 01:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Yes, you are pushing the limits. The important number in your data is the preprocessor node count, which at 196,000 is extremely high. The limit for that node count was reduced once in the past, then made larger again because of some complaints. I expect it will be made smaller in the future (much less than 100,000).  Your 'expensive parser function count' is also high.
:::I would advise you to stop using templates for the dates, and switch back to the previous method. Just because you ''can'' make it work with templates doesn't mean you should, in this case. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 01:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Isn't one of the basic en-wp laws: "use as much templates as possible"? *scnr* [[User:HardDisk|HardDisk]] ([[User talk:HardDisk|talk]]) 01:47, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Templates make maintenance much easier. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 01:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes, of course. In an ideal world we could use them as liberally as we want and never hit any issues. In practice, pages that have long tables with complicated templates in every row can overwhelm the mediawiki parser. So for pragmatic reasons we have to do things other ways, like hard-coding formatting. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 02:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Sidenote: I don't think there is a 30 second limit anywhere. I was able to get that page up to 35 seconds with profiling ([http://p.defau.lt/?2kmCa_TjtYixEaIKiSJm0w seen here]). I think the fist time limit you'll hit is a WMF squid error ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/&amp;amp; looking sort of like this]) if the apache backend or database server hasn't responded within 60 (?) seconds. But that is pretty rare with the new preprocessor/template/parserfunction limits and thumbnail resolution limits designed to stop that sort of thing. You might also hypothetically run out of memory with some thumbnailing or parsing issues, or get a general HTTP/500 error (I did, when trying to save a page with 15,000 unique links), much faster than 30 seconds. --[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 02:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Could you maybe provide some specific optimization tips for this particular template? By turning the ''c'' parameter off in the template I was able to bring the preprocessor node count down to about 175000, but this is not a significant improvement. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 02:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::If there were some way of storing local variables, I could bring down the number of calls to the parser functions considerably (I estimate by 90% in this case). Is there a "local variables" extension installed in Wikipedia? I found one in the WikiMedia help pages, but haven't seen it used here anywhere, so assume it hasn't been installed. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 02:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::No, there's not, and there never will be.  Even if there were, it would be pointless if your sole goal is to cut down on repeated use of parser functions like #if or #ifexist with the same arguments, since evaluating the variable declaration would probably be about as expensive.  You might save something on #expr, I'll grant, if that's your issue. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 17:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm curious as to why you say, "there never will be"? Also, here's an example of one of the conditions:
:::::::::::<code><s><nowiki>{{#if:{{{ 3|}}}|{{#ifexpr:{{#ifeq:{{DATEDIFF2|{{{ 2}}}|{{{ 4}}}}}|0|1|0}}or{{#ifeq:{{{ 2}}}|{{{ 4}}}|1|0}}|/{{Video game release/abbr|{{{ 3}}}}}}}</nowiki></s></code>
::::::::::Maybe you could evaluate whether local variables would be beneficial in this case. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 03:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::Note that the above line of code has changed to this:
::::::::::::<code><nowiki>{{#ifeq:{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{16}}}}}|{{{16}}}|{{#time:c|{{{16}}}}}}}|{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{18}}}}}|{{{18}}}|{{#time:c|{{{18}}}}}}}||}}</nowiki></code>
:::::::::::[[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 04:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::I say "there never will be" because that's the sentiment I've heard expressed by at least one core developer.  At any rate, in that statement variables would indeed be useless for performance.<p>First of all, note that you can make it look a bit nicer, and probably reduce the node count slightly, by using the fact that <nowiki>{{#iferror:A|B}}</nowiki> is the same as <nowiki>{{#iferror:A|B|A}}</nowiki>.  So your code could become just <code><nowiki>{{#ifeq:{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{16}}}}}|{{{16}}}}}|{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{18}}}}}|{{{18}}}}}||}}</nowiki></code>, which removes any repeated expression that you could possibly make a variable.<p>Second of all, #time maintains a per-render cache of return values.  The statement <nowiki>{{#time:c|{{{16}}}}}</nowiki> will be evaluated only once, and <nowiki>{{#time:c|{{{18}}}}}</nowiki> will be evaluated only once, even if they occur many times.  Variables will not reduce that.  They still have to be parsed multiple times to get the arguments and pass them to the correct function, and this increases various limits like node counts, but the same would be true of variables. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 22:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The issue is (mostly) not with regard to the number of repeated expressions ''within'' each line of code; rather it's with the fact that the same line of code, with few changes and with largely the same expressions inside, is used 200 times in the template. Note that the line of code also contains a call to another template, which I failed to show in the example I gave. Here's a more accurate example:
:::::::::::::<code><nowiki>#if:{{{ 3|}}}|{{#ifeq:{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{ 2}}}}}|{{{ 2}}}}}|{{#iferror:{{#time:c|{{{ 4}}}}}|{{{ 4}}}}}|/{{Video game release/abbr|{{{ 3}}}}}}}{{</nowiki></code>
:::::::::::::And, thanks for the tip regarding the #iferror: statement. That was really helpful. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

:(de-indenting) I don't think a variable would be very much faster there either, although it would look prettier.  If it's the same template being called over and over, I don't think it would make any big performance difference.  I'm not an expert on the parser, though. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
::If there is no negative performance difference, and the code is prettier, does that not mean that the benefits outweigh the expenditure? [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 23:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, yes, it would, if variables existed in wikisyntax.  They don't.  The existence of variables presupposes things like a particular order of parsing.  The closest equivalent is calling a template with the desired expression in it, like in [[functional programming]]. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 15:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This whole template should be re-thought. What is the important functionality? I see a number of things that are being done, or might be planned:
*Linking dates
*Formatting dates
*Collapsing dupe dates
*Linking regions
*Sorting
Sorting using template code is a really terrible idea, so if you're doing that, don't. Auto-linking regions is fairly simple and is quite useful, so that's good. Linking dates is ever a controversial practice. Formatting dates is likely beyond the scope of the template - if people can't format the dates consistently, they're likely not going to use the template correctly. This is easy enough for a human to do by hand. Collapsing dupe dates is very cool, but it can definitely be done better. Specifically, you should assume that the person using the template can tell that the dates are the same, and can somehow tell the template this knowledge (e.g., by leaving the date parameter after the region blank). --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 03:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:I thank you for your comments. While, in its current form, the template might not be suitable for long lists or tables after all, the performance hit on an individual article shouldn't be too steep.
:<blockquote>''"NewPP limit report<br/>Preprocessor node count: 372/1000000<br/>Post-expand include size: 1703/2048000 bytes<br/>Template argument size: 998/2048000 bytes<br/>Expensive parser function count: 1/500"''</blockquote>
:The point is to unify the template so that it uses a single syntax in every case. Currently, the standard template for this purpose requires that it be applied in one of four or five different ways to achieve the same results.
:Also, I was hoping you might provide more guidance along the lines of the use of local variables to store temporary values, as per the request above, as that will have an markedly greater impact than the suggestions you provide. I would appreciate any information in this regard. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
::[[m:Help:Calculation#Length_of_expressions]] says something about providing some of the functionality that variables offer.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] ([[User talk:Patrick|talk]]) 10:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

::I don't know where your last report came from, but the article in question is getting worse instead of better:
:::<blockquote>NewPP limit report<br/>Preprocessor node count: 200998/1000000<br/>Expensive parser function count: 258/500</blockquote>
::This really should be changed to a more efficient setup. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 17:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:::The quoted values were for a single instance of the template with two dates and regions passed as parameters. The count is still high, though using your suggestions I was able to lower it considerbaly. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]])

=== Improved ===

I spent a few minutes making the templates more efficient for [[Chronology of tactical role-playing video games]].  The results:
<blockquote>
NewPP limit report<br/>
Preprocessor node count: 31260/1000000<br/>
Post-expand include size: 153476/2048000 bytes<br/>
Template argument size: 73840/2048000 bytes<br/>
Expensive parser function count: 0/500<br/>
Served by srv60 in 8.341 secs.
</blockquote>
I think the main culprits were some sorting code, and [[Template:ISO_3166-1]], which is much too expensive. Here are a couple tips if this comes up again:
* Don't use parser functions to sort. Expect users to sort the input.
* Don't make a template that does the same thing to each entry or pair of entries in a variable length list. Instead, use the same template over and over, once for each entry or pair of entries.
* Avoid nesting templates very deeply - if needed, rewrite templates to avoid it.
* Avoid the ifexists call when possible - don't use them just to avoid redlinks to  pages that will probably be created at some point.
&mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 19:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
:You're right, [[Template:ISO_3166-1]] (or, rather [[Template:Video game release/abbr]] which makes use of it) was the main culprit. By making it less likely for the template to be called, I was able to reduce the count (see [[User:SharkD/Sandbox2]]) to the following:
:<blockquote>Preprocessor node count: 69863/1000000<br/>Post-expand include size: 404395/2048000 bytes<br/>Template argument size: 153574/2048000 bytes<br/>Expensive parser function count: 258/500</blockquote>
:Removing the "expensive parser function count" is the next main priority.
:Note that your version is missing one of the main features added for the express purposes of sortable tables: the date should appear in YYYY-MM-DD format within <code><nowiki><span style="display:none"></span></nowiki></code> tags, as discussed in [[Template talk:Vgrelease]]. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 02:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
::Since only the year was typed into the page source, how do you get the month and day for the long date? &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 02:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I was anticipating the article possibly listing the full dates instead of just the year at some point in the future. Also, the template wasn't designed to be used merely in a single article.
:::As for your individual points:
:::*The template was designed to make automated input feasable. I.e., another template was supposed to be able to input values without having to handle different cases specially. I've since learned that parser functions are too expensive for this to be an advisable design goal.
:::*I'm not sure what you mean here. I've externalized repeated functions as much as I was able (which, incidentally, seems to conflict with your next recommendation).
:::*This is an unfortunate case.
:::*I wasn't using them to avoid redlinks, per se. Rather, I was using it to determine whether the inputted date was a four digit year or a full date. I'll work on finding a better way of doing this.
:::[[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 02:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

::I think the issue here is entirely the conflict between clean design goals on one side and efficient use of mediawiki on the other. What I meant by the second point is that <nowiki>{{template1|A|B|C}}</nowiki> is more efficient as <nowiki>{{template|A}} {{template|B}} {{template|C}}</nowiki> if it operates on each input separately and has a variable length input list.  Your sandbox version is down to 16 seconds to parse, which is much better than the original version. The time is at the very bottom of the html source. Until an actual server admin (I'm not) complains about the ISO template, your version is already an improvement over the one you originally had, so if you prefer that one I'm in no position to complain. I was just looking to see how lean I could make the page with the same user-visible output; I got it down to 9 seconds. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 02:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::I'll keep tweaking it. I've thought of two more optimizations that I haven't implemented yet. If, after the modifications are completed, the loading times are still inordinately long, then I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that efforts along these lines are futile. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 03:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:I managed to bring the totals down to these:
:<blockquote>Preprocessor node count: 62798/1000000<br/>Post-expand include size: 439473/2048000 bytes<br/>Template argument size: 119961/2048000 bytes<br/>Expensive parser function count: 0/500</blockquote>
:However, if I leave the "Expensive parser function" as it was before, I can bring the preprocessor node count down to 50350. Which is more significant, 258 "expensive functions" or 12448 preprocessor nodes?
:Also, how do I pipe the <code><nowiki>|</nowiki></code> character in an expression or condition? I tried wrapping it in the nowiki tags but received an error. Also, I looked for but could not find a template for this use, like there is for table rows (e.g., {{tl|!-}}). Thanks! [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::That is not possible, the number of parameters in a template call is determined by parsing the explicit braces and pipes. so this cannot depend on a condition inside the template call.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] ([[User talk:Patrick|talk]]) 08:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
::::That's too bad. As an afterthought, I don't think it's possible in any of the other programming languages I've used, either. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::Many languages support some form of [[varargs]].  MediaWiki templates do not. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
::You can compare the two different versions here: [[User:SharkD/Sandbox/2]], [[User:SharkD/Sandbox/4]]. The load times vary wildly regardless of which page I load. The highest I've gotten is ~20 seconds, the lowest ~2 seconds. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
:::The time to look at is at the bottom of the HTML source. It will say something like:  Served by srv172 in 14.340 secs. That number is the time it took the server to generate the html, and will only fluctuate by a second or two depending on server load. Because of caching, sometimes the page will be served very fast once it is already generated. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 13:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
::::That's the value I've been looking at. I've observed it fluctuating by the amounts I specified. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

===Current version===
I brought the totals down to this:
<blockquote>Preprocessor node count: 46426/1000000<br/>Post-expand include size: 342490/2048000 bytes<br/>Template argument size: 84760/2048000 bytes<br/>Expensive parser function count: 0/500<br/>Served by srv132 in 10.020 secs.</blockquote>
This is roughly three times as expensive as Carl's version, and twice as expensive as the article minus any date templates at all (the original, minus the date templates, had a preprocessor count of 23674, and Carl's version had 31260). This is still pretty good, IMO. There's still a few tweaks planned that should bring the count down a bit more. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 04:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:Down to 41927 nodes. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 23:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I've been theorizing why the "served" times vary so greatly. It's possible that the time varies with each server. Is there a way to force a page to be served by a particular server, such as like the "?action=purge" command? [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 23:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

A few reasons.  First of all, and most importantly, the template might be cached.  In that case, it won't have to be parsed.  You can avoid this with action=purge.  Second of all, there might be some effect from which server it hits, yes, since the application servers used are not necessarily all identical (I'm pretty sure they're not).  Third of all, your request is being executed in parallel on the same server with a large number of other requests, and how much load those requests are putting on the server at the exact moment your request is processed can affect the outcome.  You can try running the request a number of times and taking an average, then disregarding small fluctuations in the average. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 15:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I've glanced at the template briefly.  My suggestion would be that you should stop using #time altogether.  It's really not necessary for people to be able to input the date in Unix time or as "last Tuesday" or any of the other formats #time supports.  (Try it yourself: <code><nowiki>{{#time:Y-m-d|last Tuesday}}</nowiki></code> -> {{#time:Y-m-d|last Tuesday}}.)  I doubt the template's users would mind at all if they had to enter it strictly as YYYY-MM.  This would probably reduce the runtime to a second or less, I'd guess. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 15:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== Request ==

Hi, the portuguese wikipedia community made a [http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vota%C3%A7%C3%B5es/Guia_de_edi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_na_cria%C3%A7%C3%A3o_de_novos_artigos_por_an%C3%B3nimos votation] and it was consensus to adopt this [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Wizard-Introduction wizard] that's already [http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Artigos_novos/Guia-Introdu%C3%A7%C3%A3o translated], could you please make it start to appear for non registered people that want's to create an article? --[[User:Jack Bauer00|Jack Bauer00]] ([[User talk:Jack Bauer00|talk]]) 00:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:If you're inquiring about the Portuguese Wikipedia, we don't have any control or say in their processes here at the English wikipedia. If you're proposing a similar process here, I'm afraid it's been discussed at length, on multiple occasions, and the consensus at this time is not to permit anonymous users to create articles. Sorry, [[User:Ultraexactzz|UltraExactZZ]] <sup> [[User_talk:Ultraexactzz|Claims]] </sup>~<small> [[Special:Contributions/Ultraexactzz|Evidence]] </small> 02:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::No, we were just asking advice about implementing the wizard in the portuguese wikipedia. We don't want to change anything here. [[User:GoEThe|GoEThe]] ([[User talk:GoEThe|talk]]) 10:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:::My apologies, I mis-read that. [[User:Ultraexactzz|UltraExactZZ]] <sup> [[User_talk:Ultraexactzz|Claims]] </sup>~<small> [[Special:Contributions/Ultraexactzz|Evidence]] </small> 11:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
::::No worries, I made a request at [[:mw:talk:developers]]. [[User:GoEThe|GoEThe]] ([[User talk:GoEThe|talk]]) 12:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:::: Your best bet would be [[:mediazilla:|Bugzilla]], though. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 19:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
::::: Except that there's no clear technical request here, unless it's "enable page creation for unregistered users but only via the wizard", and that would not be trivial to do cleanly at all.  And anyway that wouldn't work too well with the page creation log, since we still have no log_user_text . . . —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 19:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== Duplicate images ==

Is there a way to browse images with duplicates, like [[:Image:Arc fragata caldas.jpg]] (look in '''File links''')? I am confused as to why this doesn't add the image to a category, like [[:Category:Duplicate images]]. That'd be really helpful as people like me could just go through and clean up. If such a category does not exist, can it be created? ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 09:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:It's possible to generate a list (appears to be about 1300 pages) via this Google search: <code>site:en.wikipedia.org intitle:image "exact duplicate"</code>.  (After the initial search, which returns only a couple of pages, click to get the full list).

:Also, what looks like a template-created message about an "exact duplicate" isn't in fact a template (if you check the edit history of the image description page, you'll not see any edit that created it.  Rather (I'm fairly sure) it's something the software adds, because (relatively recently) a [[hash total]] is being calculated for each image.  I'm not sure why the software doesn't add a category as well, but of course that would complicate matters if the category is incorrect, is renamed, etc.  Still, it might be helpful, as you note.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 12:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

:The mediawiki software could be modified to add these to a category whenever it adds the duplicate image message. Unfortunately, I believe it isn't possible to do without a software change. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 12:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

::A new Special: page listing duplicates might be easier? --<span style="color:blue">[[User talk:Grey Knight|<sub>tiny plastic</sub> Grey Knight]]</span> <span style="color:#777">[[User:tiny plastic Grey Knight|&#x2296;]]</span> 07:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Ideal, probably. Good idea, how do those happen? ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 07:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Someone writes them.  In this case it would likely be just another QueryPage.  It should be fairly easy to write, but the query will be expensive (scan of image table), so it's not going to be updateable in real time.  Commons people don't get enough love, though, so I think I'll write one up now ― I'm sure they have a tool somewhere that already does this, though. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 19:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== Ohm sign; Omega; and problems with the former ==

The Ohm Sign character "[[&#x2126;]]" (U+2126) and the Capital Omega character "[[Ω]]" (U+03A9) look very similar.  Indeed Ohm Sign exists in Unicode to allow for round tripping of with legacy code that uses both characters, with the Capital Omega being the preferred character to represent ohms.  Indeed, if one types in the Ohm Sign character directly "[[Ω]]"  It appears that MediaWiki is obligingly automatically converting it at some stage into a Capital Omega, so how did I get that red link earlier?  Well, that's because that first link is using a character reference, as is used by the article [[ISO/IEC 6937]].  You'd think the problem would be simple to fix, just fill in the redlink with a redirect.  No can do, because that same magic that MediaWiki does, causes any attempt to edit it to edit instead Capital Omega.  (Which may also account for why that redirect to [[Omega]] has three separate occurrences of being changed to point to [[Ohm]] and then being reverted.)  I could easily enough tweak [[ISO/IEC 6937]] to get rid of the red link in that article, but how many others might be in other articles now and in the future?  I can't even use what links here to find out as even if I type in the correct URL by hand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/%E2%84%A6 ) the autocorrection that MediaWiki is so obligingly providing gives me gives me instead the page of what links to Capital Omega!!!

I'm not particularly desirous of adding an account for myself at MediaZilla, as I like to keep the universe of accounts I've established small and memorable, which is why I'm posting this here instead of there. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 01:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

:I see that you don't use the unicode character entities for both examples, so I thought I'd test them here: &#x2126;  &#x03a9; . They look identical to me on Windows/IE7 using whatever font is specified as the default. I think it's a browser/font issue, as Wikipedia doesn't alter character entities. One workaround is to use LaTeX (see [[WP:MATH]]) to generate the ohm sign. The times font uses characters that are highly distinguishable. For example: <math>\omega \Omega</math>. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 02:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

::MediaWiki (or, I suspect, actually [[PHP]] which it runs on) does convert the Ohm sign (U+2126) to a capital Omega (U+03A9) under various circumstances.  I suspect it happens whenever MediaWiki actually tells PHP to treat the string as [[Unicode]]; most of the time it just passes data around as ([[UTF-8]] encoded) [[octet (computing)|octet]] strings.  Same, incidentally, happens with the [[Ångström]] sign and capital "Å" and the [[Kelvin]] sign and the capital "K".  That last part actually caused me to accidentally [[mw:Extension:Title Blacklist|blacklist]] all titles containing the letter "K" some time ago: for details, see the discussion at [[MediaWiki talk:Titleblacklist#Two odd inclusions]].  —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 02:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
:::BTW, which font is the default for English Wikipedia? I've looked at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], but can only find definitions for special cases. I also haven't been able to access the stylesheets listed in the HTML source. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 03:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
::::The default font is "sans".  This will be whatever you have configured as your default sans-serif font in your web browser.  If you haven't changed it, it will probably be Arial on Windows, but it will be different on other platforms.  On [[GNOME]], my default is just called "Sans" as far as I can tell (although I suspect it's secretly called something less generic and I just don't know how to figure out). —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 19:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:::MediaWiki is what does [http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/includes/normal the Unicode normalization].  PHP 5 has no native Unicode support ― that will only come in PHP 6. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 19:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

::Under most fonts, they will look the same and even when they don't (<span style="font-family:'MS PMincho'">&#x2126; &#x03a9;</span> <tt>&#x2126; &#x03a9;</tt>) they look very similar, but I wasn't complaining about the appearance but the unalterable redlink. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 04:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I've submitted this for you as [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14952 bug 14952]. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

== Proposal to disable hotlinking - question ==

There is a proposal to disable hotlinking for all Wikimedia projects, but the question was raised if there was a way to see how much bandwidth is actually given up to hotlinks. If anyone knows a way to find out, aside from filing a bug (which I did), could you please comment [[Meta:Babel#Proposal_to_disable_hotlinking|here]]. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 23:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Just so readers know, Tim Starling has answered there.  (Answer: probably not worth blocking for bandwidth-saving reasons.) —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 20:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

== Deprecation of {{tl|video}} and the multi-video templates ({{tl|multi-video start}} et al) ==

I've worked through all the articlespace transclusions of these templates and replaced them with image tags which do the same thing. This simplifies the code and unbroke a lot of articles which had half-broken tables littering their "Media" sections. All these templates still see common use in other namespaces, but I'd like to start the ball rolling in deprecating them. Is this the right place to have that discussion? [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 10:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

:[[WP:TFD]], I think.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 16:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
== How can I printout Wikipedia pages with links in blue color? ==

Please tell me how I can printout (hardcopy) a Wikipedia page onto paper with links in blue color ?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Brittanics|Brittanics]] ([[User talk:Brittanics|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Brittanics|contribs]]) 22:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:<nowiki>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=article_name&printable=yes</nowiki>
:[[User:Geni|Geni]] 22:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::Actually that's how to ''remove'' the blue -- as I understood it, Brittanics ''wanted'' the blue. So if you have a color printer, you can just print the page from your browser. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 22:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::: Recent browsers actually print following the @media: print rule in the CSS, so that doesn't work. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 23:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Hmm, seems to be a good question, then. Anyone have a solution? --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 01:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:::It's moderately tedious, but if you have Microsoft Office 2007, and you copy+paste, the links will be in blue. As will the references. It's at least one way to do it. '''[[User:Seresin|seresin]] ( [[User talk:Seresin|¡?]] )''' 01:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:Surely there's some way to override link-color-disabling in user CSS.  Can't be arsed to find out how, though. ;-) --[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 07:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If your browser supports inline @media, try in your [[Special:Mypage/monobook.css|monobook.css]]:
<syntaxhighlight lang="css">
@media print {
  html > body a, html > body a:visited,
  html > body a.external, html > body a.external:visited,
  html > body a.extiw, html > body a.extiw:visited,
  html > body a.new, html > body a.new:visited { color:blue !important }
}
</syntaxhighlight>
If not, you could do some javascript at [[Special:Mypage/monobook.js|monobook.js]]:
<syntaxhighlight lang="javascript">
if(document.location.href.indexOf('printable=yes') != -1) {
 var rule = 'html > body a, html > body a:visited, '
 + 'html > body a.external, html > body a.external:visited, '
 + 'html > body a.extiw, html > body a.extiw:visited, '
 + 'html > body a.new, html > body a.new:visited { color:blue !important }'
 appendCSS(rule);
}
</syntaxhighlight>
--[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 07:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== Wikipedia Mobile ==

Why do not we do something as m.en.wikipedia.org which will help getting contents at lower brandwith. (i.e only article intros will be viewed). It will proove a good Idea.--<font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;cursor:busy;">[[User:DualHelix|Double ]] </font>   [[User talk:DualHelix | Helix]] 09:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
: See [[Wikipedia:WAP access]]. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== Random number generation ==

Is there some extension that enables using random numbers? I.e. something like RND(6) to get a random number between 0 and 5. I'm using
<nowiki>{{#switch: {{#expr: {{#time: U}} mod 6}}</nowiki> at the moment - which kinda works but obviously isn't random. [[User:CaAl|CaAl]] ([[User talk:CaAl|talk]]) 14:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:{{tl|rand}} isn't random either, but it seems to be what's used. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 15:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks. That seems to be a fancier version of what I did in the above. No need to change anything then :-) [[User:CaAl|CaAl]] ([[User talk:CaAl|talk]]) 19:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:::Also, see [[User:Misza13/Random]].  (When in doubt, check [[WP:EIW|the editor's index]].) -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:Since you can't get truly random numbers without lo-fi input, your best bet might be something like <tt><nowiki>{{#expr:{{#md5:{{WP:AN/I}}}} mod 6}}</nowiki></tt>. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 21:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
::<nowiki/>#md5? Wut? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 22:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:::It's a joke, but a hash function would have a few niche uses. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 22:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

== Sorting tables by the arrows at the top of the column ==

Hi, I was just looking at [[List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita]], and tried to sort the table by the Rank column, but when you use the arrow at the top of the column to do that, you get the ranks sorted by 1, 101, 102, 103, etc., and 2 down below everything starting with a 1.  Is there a way to fix that?  <font face="jokerman">[[User:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:green">Corvus cornix</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:Corvus cornix|<span style="color:Green">talk</span>]]''</sub></font> 21:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
:Use one of the sorting templates, like {{tl|nts}} or {{tl|smn}}, per [[Help:Sorting]].  — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 21:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:I didn't have any problems when I tried (FF2, Mac OS). What are others experiencing?  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, {{tl|nts}} should do.  See [[2002 Commonwealth Games]] for an example.  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 21:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:If a column contains any cells with non-numerical data, the others which are numbers are interpreted as strings for purposes of sorting. The current hack is to use something like <tt><nowiki>{{sort|008|8}}</nowiki></tt> which basically puts invisible text to the left of the data. You would of course have to assign a number (either "000" or "999") to values like "—" and "<small>N/A</small>". — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 21:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

:: IIRC, it actually looks at the contents of the cell in the first row to pick numeric or string comparison, which is why some tables seem to sort numerically sometimes and textually other times. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 23:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
== External editors ==

I'm trying to set external editors up but I'm afraid they are really giving me a headache. I created [[:User:It Is Me Here/monobook.js]] as per the [[:m:Help:External editors|help]] page and my thingy now looks like [http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/7/29/f_Monobookm_2d714d7.jpg&srv=img26 that], but when I click the '''ee''' button, I just get the option to open some weird file that my PC doesn't recognise. I would like to use IE7 to edit Wikipedia if possible; if not, then FF3. Also, is it possible to rename the "ee" button to, say, "external edit" or something? [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 08:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

:A [[web browser]] is not a [[text editor]].  "External editors" means text editing programs like [[emacs]] or [[vi]], for example.  As for editing in FF3 or IE7, it's not clear what you mean - when you're viewing a page with a web browser, and you click "edit this page" or an "edit" link, you ''are'' editing using that web browser (unless you set preferences to edit using an external editor).  Did you have something else in mind when you said you want to use FF3 or IE7?  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 16:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

::No, no, I would like to use external programs to edit things (like using Word to edit pages, Inkscape to edit SVGs and GIMP to edit all other images), but I don't understand how to do that, unfortunately. [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 17:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

:::You can't edit images or other media files at Wikipedia; you need to download them to your computer, edit them there, and upload them.  The "external editor" option is ''only'' for text.  And you still haven't explained what "using IE7 to edit Wikipedia" means, if it doesn't mean clicking on "edit this page" and seeing an edit box.  Does IE7 have some sort of built-in text editor (search and replace, multi-clipboard, etc.) that isn't well advertised?  Can you provide an example of using IE7 (or FF3) to edit other type of web pages or files, that demonstrates what you have in mind? -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 19:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Well I was thinking of setting my WP account / copy of IE7 so that pressing '''ee''' opens a page in an appropriate text editing program that has normal bold etc. buttons so that you don't see lots of Wiki markup when editing but see instead more-or-less normal text.

:::::Returning to your comment that ''I just get the option to open some weird file that my PC doesn't recognise'', I think that you're being asked, at that point, to select a specific text editing program (in IE7, there should be a "Find" button). Do you actually ''have'' a text editing program on your computer?  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
::::::Indeed - upon clicking the '''ee''' button, I get [http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/7/31/f_Externaledim_f3fb924.jpg&srv=img37 this], and clicking the '''Find''' button just links me to some Microsoft site which tells me that Notepad and something called "Microsoft Picture It!" can open the file. As far as I know the only text editing programs I have installed are Word 2007 and Notepad. [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 19:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

== Lupins popups and the demise of query.php ==

As mentioned [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-July/038835.html here], query.php is scheduled to die the 25th of august. I have a [[User:TheDJ/apipopups.js|replacement for popups]] that adds support for api.php. I suggest that we replace both [[User:Lupin/popups.js]] and [[MediaWiki:Gadget-popups.js]], with my new version (i'll prepare both versions) august the 10th so that we are in time. I would really appreciate it if some more users would test my replacement code before that time. --[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 11:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

How about you get it made a Gadget so it's easier for people to try out? —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 18:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:There is a popup gadget already: [[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups]] under Preferences > Gagets. In fact, I thought it was Lupin popups which I used to have.  &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<span style="color:navy;">'''Mattisse'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 18:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
::Good idea actually. Let's add an apipopus Gadget, so people can test. thx for the suggestion.

== Article uses old version of image ==

The current version of [[Holes (novel)]] uses the correct image; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holes_%28novel%29&direction=prev&oldid=229061462 this version] uses an old version of the image. The only difference in wikicode is the image size. (I changed the size to get it to update the image. It did not help to purge the article or make a null edit.) This seems to be a bug. —[[User:TEB728|teb728]] [[User talk:TEB728|t]] [[Special:Contributions/TEB728|c]] 18:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
:Purging the image fixed it; I don't know why. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 20:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

== Theora ==

foundation-l asked for some comment on Theora with Firefox 3.1a2pre and its support of <video> and I figure this might be a good place.  Besides the known bug of closing a tab won't stop audio it seems that with larger videos like [[:Image:HardDisk1.ogg]] the buffering is very poor and leads to you getting one frame per second with no way to pause while it loads. [[User:Grenavitar|gren]] [[User talk:Grenavitar|グレン]] 19:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

== "Unable to proceed" ==

{{resolved}}

Whenever I try to rollback an edit, this is what I get:

"There seems to be a problem with your login session;

this action has been canceled as a precaution against session hijacking.

Please hit "back" and reload the page you came from, then try again."

What could the problem be? [[User:CountyLemonade|C]][[User talk:CountyLemonade|L]] — 23:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
: I think it means you logged yourself out in another window/tab. Log out and log back in, that should fix it. [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 23:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
::Tried that, but the same thing shows up - [[User:CountyLemonade|C]][[User talk:CountyLemonade|L]] — 00:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

This is happening to me too. I asked at [[WP:HD]], but I'll cross-post here too. <span style="font-family:Forte;">[[User:Perfect Proposal|<span style="color:blue;">Perfect Proposal</span>]] [[User talk:Perfect Proposal|<sup style="color:orange;">Speak Out!</sup>]]</span> 00:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
: Me too. Not a cookie problem (cleared cookies prior to logging back in). [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 00:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::Okay, I'll watchlist WP:HD to see what comes up there :) [[User:CountyLemonade|C]][[User talk:CountyLemonade|L]] — 00:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
(ec) The same thing has just showed up on my computers. I had two IEs open, but I don't know if it's the case. Anyway, I used [[WP:UNDO]]. [[User:Admiral Norton|Admiral Norton]] <sup>([[User talk:Admiral Norton|talk]])</sup> 00:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, I'm using UNDO as well; it just doesn't have the cachet of using the oh-so special "rollback" feature :) [[User:CountyLemonade|C]][[User talk:CountyLemonade|L]] — 00:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I also asked the same question at [[Wikipedia talk:Rollback feature#Unable to roll back]].  I'll direct it here.  <span style="color:DarkGray;">...</span> [[User:discospinster|<span style="color:DarkOrange;">'''disco'''</span><span style="color:DarkOliveGreen;">'''''spinster'''''</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:discospinster|'''<span style="color:DarkGray;">talk</span>''']]</sub> 00:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I was afraid the rollbacker group somehow went missing, but it shows up at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=Admiral+Norton&group=&limit=1 Special:ListUsers]. Must be some weird bug. I hope it'll have been fixed by tomorrow. [[User:Admiral Norton|Admiral Norton]] <sup>([[User talk:Admiral Norton|talk]])</sup> 00:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
: [[:bugzilla:14997|Bug 14997]]. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 00:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm having the same problem. I hope it gets resolved. [[User:L337p4wn|L337<font color="black" size="2px"></font>]]'''*'''[[User talk:L337p4wn|P4wn<font color="yellow" size="2px"></font>]] 00:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Admins have been notified ([[WP:AN#Rollback is currently down]]). Not sure whether discussion will come here or whether we'll have more cross-posting... [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 00:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:A recent change to MediaWiki broke it This is cross-wiki, too. The smaller wikis will be getting hammered. This levels the playing field for the vandals. '''[[User:Enigmaman|<font color="blue">Enigma</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Enigmaman|<b><sup>message</sup></b>]]'' 01:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:: It's already fixed, we just need to wait for the change to become live (which it evidently hasn't yet). [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 01:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Until then, God help us, we're at DefCon 1. Ugh, you really take Rollback for granted sometimes - [[User:CountyLemonade|C]][[User talk:CountyLemonade|L]] — 01:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

*<big>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Enigmaman It's working again!]</big> '''[[User:Enigmaman|<font color="blue">Enigma</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Enigmaman|<b><sup>message</sup></b>]]'' 01:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Redirect fixer]] ==

Can anyone figure out what when wrong with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PLC%CE%B3&diff=228632689&oldid=110677299 this] automated edit by [[User:Redirect fixer]]?  -- [[User:Edgar181|Ed]] ([[User talk:Edgar181|Edgar181]]) 17:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
: API messing up again? Either that or something went terribly wrong with the bot/whatever it is. [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 17:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fielding_positions_chart&diff=next&oldid=43880273 Here is another one]. Looks like a copy of [[User talk:Acroterion]]. -[[User:84user|84user]] ([[User talk:84user|talk]]) 19:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

At least 12 redirect fixer edits today were broken. --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 20:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:Hmn... is it even possible to block the account, given that it is basically a shell for a MediaWiki process? Clearly there are bugs here that need to be addressed. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 21:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:: See the long discussion at [[User_talk:Gimmetrow#WP:GO]].  [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<span style="color:green;">Georgia</span>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 21:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:::As far as I'm aware, the account is unblockable. If it's causing issues, [[bugzilla:|file a bug]] like you would for any other MediaWiki issue. Be sure to include relevant diffs. Cheers. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Filed: {{phab|16976}} [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 21:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

:It's not related to [[#Bug:_revisions.2Fpagesizes.2Fpagerendering.2Fwikisource_not_matching_up.2C_resulting_in_blanking_or_page_replacements|this bug above]], is it?--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 21:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This should stop happening now, hopefully. Apparently it was editing from srv104, which is inaccessible by ssh and had the incorrect DB configuration. I've firewalled it on all the database servers. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 02:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
: I went back this morning and reverted about 25-30 [[User:Redirect fixer|Redirect fixer]] edits; in case this problem ever occurs again, the methodology was to search through that user's contributions for pages where it was the last editor [i.e., "'''(top)'''" appears at the end of the contribution item], and where the text of the page did ''not'' contain "#REDIRECT", which indicates an error since any page that this "user" edits should by definition be a redirect.  --[[User:R'n'B|Russ]] [[User talk:R'n'B|(talk)]] 13:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Idiotic Wikipedia code turns fact into fallacy ==

In the mark-up of the [[South Island]] article, the statistics box says "ethnic groups". Why does this show up as "Indigenous people"? This bizarre piece of coding needs to be changed. In an earlier version of the article, the editor had stated, correctly, "ethnic groups = Māori, European". This showed up, incorrectly, as "'''Indigenous people''' Māori, European", and a subsequent editor quite reasonably re-edited it to "ethnic groups = Māori", so that it would read, "'''Indigenous people''' Māori". Less reasonably, s/he pointed out the previous editor's "error" in the edit summary.<p>
[[User:Koro Neil|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil|talk]]) 04:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:The parameter name was "ethnic groups" but the caption was "indigenous people". Someone didn't know the difference when they added this option; I've changed the caption to read "ethnic groups" which is what people will probably mean when they write "ethnic groups = ...". [[User:Pegasus|Pegasus]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Pegasus|&laquo;C]]&brvbar;[[User talk:Pegasus|T&raquo;]] 07:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
::Cheers, Pegasus. [[User:Koro Neil|Koro Neil]] ([[User talk:Koro Neil|talk]]) 09:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I agree it's best to not limit it to indigenous people but the documentation has said so since January 2007 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_Islands&diff=next&oldid=100312305] (still says so), and I wonder how many of the current uses follow that. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 12:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

::::As there is nothing written anywhere why the option should be restricted like that, I updated the documentation as well. [[User:Pegasus|Pegasus]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Pegasus|&laquo;C]]&brvbar;[[User talk:Pegasus|T&raquo;]] 09:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Section link in edit summary broken ==

{{resolved}}

The '→' section links in automatic edit summaries are no longer working for me. They point to the relevant page, but not to the section. This occurs <s>everywhere</s> almost everywhere the links appear (watchlist, history, contribs, recent changes, etc.), whether logged-in or -out, and on FF, IE, Opera and Safari (all WinXP). This has only been affecting me for a few hours, but [[User:Fuhghettaboutit]] [[WP:RD/C#Going to a section of page is not functioning|reports]] having experienced it for the last two weeks. Any ideas? [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 00:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
: It worked for me yesterday. Is it a possibility that it has something to do with the recent demise of rollback? [[User:Calvin 1998|Calvin 1998]]&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Calvin 1998|t]]-[[Special:Contributions/Calvin 1998|c]])</sup> 00:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::Probably. Opinion on Bugzilla seems to be that the same revision broke both. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 00:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

*I came here to report the same thing. For example, the section link in this diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29&curid=3252662&diff=229133477&oldid=229133296] goes to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/. [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]]  [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 00:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

*: [[:bugzilla:14995|Bug 14995]]. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 00:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
*:Oops, forgot to check diffs. That happens for me too. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 00:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Fixed. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 01:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:I don't thnk so. This diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29&curid=3252662&diff=229138465&oldid=229138143] leads to this link "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/#Section link in edit summary broken". [[Special:Contributions/Will_Beback| ·:· ]][[User:Will Beback|Will Beback]]  [[User talk:Will Beback|·:·]] 01:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::Now the watchlist/contrib links are broken in a new way: the first character of the section title is missing. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 01:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I came here to say the same thing. The link URLs from clicking watchlist section links use %20 instead of the proper _ (underscore.) [[User:Grandmasterka|<font color="red">Grand</font>]][[User talk:Grandmasterka|<font color="blue">master</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Grandmasterka|<font color="green">ka</font>]] 06:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:Just came here to post the same thing. Good thing others have noticed. -- [[User:RattleMan|RattleMan]] 09:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::Me too. It's also failing to encode correctly other characters (actually, it doesn't seem to be encoding anything). See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29&diff=229137425&oldid=229137170], if you click to reach the correct section, it uses the anchor "Unable to proceed", but the correct anchor is .22Unable_to_proceed.22 I bet that it also has problems with apostrophes and other punctiation characters. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 13:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I fixed part of this last night, Rotem fixed the rest in {{rev|38356}}.  Don't know when it will go live. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 15:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:Should be all fixed now. :) --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 17:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Importing article histories ==

Is there currently any way to import the history of an article from another-language Wikipedia? ([[Special:Import]] does not seem to be working; see [[Help:Import#Wikipedia-specific help]].) {{tl|translated}} allows for some attribution in the form of linking to the version of the article that was translated, but it does not transfer the contributions history. Thanks, –'''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])</sup> 15:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:If this feature is disabled it should probably remain so until all SUL-related name conflicts are resolved. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 16:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:(ec)Full history imports are disabled here (IIRC) because they cause very complicated GFDL issues.  Although the problems are reduced by SUL, the biggest problem is that contributions can be assigned to users who do not exist, or users who share a username with someone on another project may be credited with edits that they didn't actually make (effectively plagiarism).  {{tlx|translated}}, while sub-optimal, at least avoids these issues. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 16:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::What about making a [[Help:Dummy edit|dummy edit]] so as to include links to the userpages of contributors (that is, typing "Contributors: [[:de:Benutzer:User 1]], [[:de:Benutzer:User 2]], ..." instead of "Contributors: User 1, User 2, ..."). Would that be an acceptable method of attribution, when combined with {{tl|translated}}? –'''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])</sup> 16:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Anything's better than nothing - {{tlx|translated}} is more user-facing than attribution-based. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 16:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::::OK, thank you. –'''[[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|Talk]])</sup> 16:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Administration of Wiki Accounts ==

Hello,

I've just installed MediaWiki on a server at work, and I'm wondering where I can find documentation on how to secure the Wiki by only allowing one account to be able to edit anything on the site. Thanks in advance.

- Amin  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.249.3.98|216.249.3.98]] ([[User talk:216.249.3.98|talk]]) 17:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I think you mean you want to disable account creation and disable anonymous edits in LocalSettings.php:
<pre>
$wgGroupPermissions["*"]["edit"] = false;
$wgGroupPermissions["*"]["createaccount"] = false;
</pre>
:Of course if anybody has created an account before you disabled account creation, you will need to either block those accounts or disable their editing like this.
<pre>
$wgGroupPermissions["user"]["edit"] = false;
</pre>
:More options can be found at [[mw:Manual:User rights]]. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 18:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::[[mw:Manual:Preventing access]] is a pretty good read as well. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 22:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

== Request ==

Request: can the degree symbol ([[wikt:°|°]]) be added to the repertoire of tiny blue characters available below the edit screen when editing a page? Thank you, [[User:Badagnani|Badagnani]] ([[User talk:Badagnani|talk]]) 21:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:It's already there? <tt>Insert: – — … ‘ “ ’ ” <span style="background:#F5FAFF;">°</span> ″ ′ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · §</tt> --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

OHH, way up top! I didn't even see those. You're good! [[User:Badagnani|Badagnani]] ([[User talk:Badagnani|talk]]) 21:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
== Toggle tech--help on the commons ==

re: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Maps_in_Spanish
In large commons categories on the commons, particularly the Maps by languages "List categories" (like the link given) it would be very useful to be able to toggle the magic word <nowiki>__NOGALLERIES__</nowiki> on or off... like the templates which toggle between show and hide (Collapse).  (I've just temporarily installed one on that page)<br/>
# A template which could be "defaulted" to do either and toggle to the other state would be truly good.
# A script adding a tab or some such to do the same on any category page would possiblly be even more useful to me personally, and to others which work there and here as well.

Any help in one or both of these "wish list" endeavors would be truly appreciated. If this has a rapid resolution please ping me [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/user_talk:Fabartus here this evening!] Thanks // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 23:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

:Commons has it's own village pump; that's the best place to discuss changes to that website: [[Commons:Commons:Village pump]].  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 15:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

::Gee, ''I asked for '''how-to''', and I get the blindingly obvious.''' Ahem. The last I looked there were hundreds of script savvy computer science trained editors here and a very relatively few comparatively there... or perhaps you know of a VPT there I'm unaware of? Anyone else? // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 16:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::: You can ask for a script at [[commons:Commons:Bots/Requests]]. I have a bot for use here at enwiki, but I would never use it on the commons, as I don't know enough about their policies; I hope that other enwiki bot operators would agree. -- [[User:Eugene van der Pijll|Eugène van der Pijll]] ([[User talk:Eugene van der Pijll|talk]]) 16:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

::::As an experiment I've written [[User:Splarka/togglegallery.js]], which so far only toggles it '''on'''. Well, it sort of does. For every Image: link on a __NOGALLERY__'d category page it (when you click it in the toolbox) inserts an &lt;img&gt; tag. It uses batched (50 at a time) API queries to perfectly generate a thumbnail of the specific width (or smaller if none larger). It is based on [[User:Splarka/galleryimagelist.js]] which does something similar to [[Special:ImageList]]. I haven't written the '''off''' yet, but it should be a simple matter of just removing all image tags on the page and hiding the space they took up. You can test it by adding to your commons monobook.js:
<pre style="overflow:auto;">
if(wgCanonicalNamespace == 'Category') importScriptURI('http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Splarka/togglegallery.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript');</pre>
::::--[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 10:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
<div style="width:95%">
:I appreciate the good faith unfresh answer... '''but did you finish here...?'''

:::''(BTW-John B: There are maybe 60-70 regular editors on the commons... and most only contribute images. If anyone is interested in either category or template support work, talk to me or Rocket000 over there for ideas of what can be done. If you have language skills outside english, Rocket000 implied we're really short of translations there in lots of needs. I say "We're" for it's a foundation project, AND so is this. We should all be contributing a bit there and timesharing anyone with editing skills here can figure out the category system there and contribute by helping sort the images all the wiki's dump there--and the auto-categories on BOT moves really suck most times... it's constantly putting images in root categories... which needs hands to move.)

:Your post on my talk implies something finished in both modes. So, did you finish here? // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 20:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::You tell me. It now has both an 'on' and 'off' mode, but they are not opposite sides of the same coin. One removes galleries (and replaces with a list), and one turns a list of links to Image: namespaces into a sort of gallery. To emulate exactly what <nowiki>__NOGALLERY__</nowiki> does in javascript would be a bit DOM-heavy/slow, this is faster and clean ... if not exactly the same in appearance to adding/removing <nowiki>__NOGALLERY__</nowiki>. I consider it "done", but you'll have to test it and see. To test it, go to [[commons:Special:Mypage/monobook.js]] and paste in
<pre style="overflow:auto;">if(wgCanonicalNamespace == 'Category') importScriptURI('http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Splarka/togglegallery.js&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript');</pre>
::(or copy [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Splarka/monobook.js&oldid=13156640 mine]) and then purge your browser cache. Go to a category with <nowiki>__NOGALLERY__</nowiki> and look for a link in your toolbox sidebar, and do the same for one showing a gallery. --[[User:Splarka|Splarka]] ([[User_talk:Splarka|rant]]) 07:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

== Mystifying display of page title ==

I have just accessed [[Wikipedia:Template messages/User namespace]] for the first time in months, and not only does the page title at the top display as ''Wikipedia:template messages/User namespace'' (note the lower-case ''t''), but the browser's history, the tab, and the title bar all refer to it as ''title'' (more accurately, ''title - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia''). Quite odd indeed... I have checked the page and there is nothing in the syntax to suggest such an effect (by the way, the ''title'' is replaced with the full name in edit mode, though still with lower-case ''t'' both on the page and in the browser). It's probably one of the transcluded templates, but they all look innocent. I've purged the page, and then bypassed my cache; nothing has changed. [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 21:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:It's transcluding {{tl|wronguser}}, which uses a JS hack to change the page title. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 21:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::And {{tl|lowercase-user}} is making that t lowercase. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 21:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::: I see. (These templates slipped under my radar.) Isn't there a way to circumvent this problem? The former doesn't display anything, but the latter should be kept up to date, and this seems pretty hard to do that without transcluding the template. Any ideas? [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 21:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. --[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] ([[special:contributions/Random832|contribs]]) 23:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

== Union / Intersection operations ==

This must surely have been suggested before but is there a way of doing intersections and unions of article groups listed under categories and what-links-here. For instance I would love to replace the long lists of movies with cockroaches at [[Cockroach#Popular_culture]] with a piped wikilink to something that produces the intersection of category:movies and what-links-here for cockroaches. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 14:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
:Found the material on this [[Wikipedia_talk:Category_intersection|here]]. [[User:Shyamal|Shyamal]] ([[User talk:Shyamal|talk]]) 16:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

== Global bot policy ==

The [[meta:Bot policy|global bot policy]] at meta has recently been finalised, and en.wiki is required to 'opt in' to any associated global rights.  All comers are welcome to participate in '''[[Wikipedia talk:Bot policy#English Wikipedia opt into the global bot policy for interwiki bots|the discussion]]''' at [[WT:Bot policy]].  [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 21:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
== Page redirecting to external unaffiliated site ==

A user asked a question at the [[Wikipedia:Help desk#External Namespace question|help desk here]] regarding being redirected to an external site when searching for [[Golem: It!]], intending to be taken to the article [[The Golem: It!]]. As he/she explained, clicking on the first link (or using the search bar with go), takes one directly to a page at an external and unaffiliated site, <nowiki>http://golem.linux.it/index.php/It%21</nowiki>. I'll let you tech gurus explain this one.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] ([[User talk:Fuhghettaboutit|talk]]) 11:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:It appears to be a function of entering Golem: into the search box. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 11:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:Golem: is listed as an interwiki at [[meta:Interwiki map]] [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interwiki_map&diff=prev&oldid=238414]. I don't know why it's there, or whether it's a good thing, but that is the reason for the redirect. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 11:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

== Moving pages. ==

I really want to add pages to my watchlist '''manually''', when pages are moved the moved page gets automaticlly to my watchlist, I'm sick of having to remove unneeded pages from my watchlist because of move. Now what I am suggesting is an option in "My preferences" where I can choose "Automatically add moved pages to the watchlist" and disable that. Is there any chance that can be done? [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 15:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:My page moves settings already give a click box to select adding it to the watch pages, including the talk. Perhaps yours is being over-ridden by a different setting. My default used to be Add any page I edited to the watch, but is now set to I'll manually add such pages... (however that's worded)... suggest trying that. // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 15:56, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::The point is that when ''someone else'' moves a watched page, you end up watching both the original and new titles. This is in general a good thing (who wants to stop watching a page just because someone's changed the title to use and endash?) but makes pagemove vandalism more annoying. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 16:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::What would be nice would be a clearer definition of when a pagemove is 'reverted' - and when a page move is reverted (ie after vandal pagemoves) the pagemove target ([[HAGGER]] or whatever) should be removed from all the watchlists it was automatically added to.  Kind of complicated to implement, I expect, though. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 16:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::::It is enough for me to see on my watchlist "Page X moved to Page X" and I want to decide for myself whether or not I wanna watch the moved page. Of course this is not only if the page move gets reverted, I also often have to remove pages from my watchlist that used to be the title. I wanna do it manually, not automatic. [[User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] ([[User talk:TheBlazikenMaster|talk]]) 16:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
== Reflist with 2 columns ==

{{lts|Reflist}} doesnt work with multiple columns in all browsers. I need a format with only 2 columns. Is there any already made, that works in all browsers? If not, can anyone help me make one? thanks [[User:Ark25|Ark25]] ([[User talk:Ark25|talk]]) 15:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:What browser are you having problems with?  There has been some discussion about on the template talk page— you should comment there so we can see what issues you have. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 18:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:: The discution took place many times about the same issue. It doesnt work in IE and Opera. So it's not much use I open the same discution again, as the conclusion is "it will work sometime later". I am looking for another template, with only 2 columns, but anyways I will move my comment on the {{tl|reflist}} talk page. [[User:Ark25|Ark25]] ([[User talk:Ark25|talk]]) 01:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:::It also doesn't work in Safari on WinXP. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 13:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:::For previous discussion about this problem, see [[Template talk:Reflist/Archive 2008#Multiple columns deemed bad]]. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 14:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::::This is a general problem with the mozilla extension, like SVG, '''most browsers don't support it, not just some.''' Such tech frills ought be waited upon... If it doesn't work in IE5, shouldn't be used imho. // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 17:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::::TEMPLATE WISE ADMIN NEEDED HERE STAT -- [[Template_talk:Reflist#Editprotect_request_2008-08-01]] <g> (Why do I feel like an Nurse on a PA system?) // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 19:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::IE5 was released 9 years ago and as a 0.07% market share [http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2]. I think it's pretty safe to not support it. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 19:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Reflist with more than one column does not work on the current IE, or on several other browsers either. I think it is lunatic to have a feature (and such an important one at that) which degrades the Wikipedia experience for so many readers. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 19:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I think it is something like 75% for all IExx - none of which support the multi-column reflist. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 19:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I know that multicolumn layout is not supported in the current version of IE - I was just pointing out that it's impractical to try and support ''every'' browser ever made. I don't think that having multicolumn layout in Firefox and Safari but not in IE and Opera is a big deal, since I'm pretty sure there's no good way to give IE and Opera multicolumn support from our end. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 20:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Multicolumn doies not work properly in Safari on WinXP either. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 20:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::I'd have to agree with RTD here... most visitors to Wikipedia who use IE have never (and likely will never) view it in any browser ''besides'' IE, so they'll never know the refs are supposed to be multicolumn. And it's pretty hard to miss something you never knew about... ;) As for Opera... well, it's probably the visitor's choice to be using it, so if they know about the reflist layout and it bothers them that much, they can either live with it or use FF or another browser that supports multicolumns. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 20:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::So why bother having multiple columns anyway? They don't display as multiple columns for most users, and for some they break the links between a refnumber in the text and the reference itself. "Wikipedia - the encyclopædia which doesn't display properly for most users" [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 20:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::Can you show me an example of multicolumn references breaking something? —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 22:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Yes, here it is (as featured in the archived discussion linked above) [[:Image:Safariscreenshot.PNG]]. As you will see, the little letters from references get displaced (reference 7), and (which I cannot illustrate from a screenshot) when one clicks on a ref number in the article text, it does not take one to the reference, but rather to where the reference would be if the reflist was in one column. [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 22:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

If the columns don't display right in (some versions of) Safari, it would be a simple matter to remove the -webkit vendor-specific rule.  Safari should then ignore the columns, just like IE. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 17:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:While multicolumn references are a bad idea in general (it's annoying to scroll through, causes wrapping problems with long words and URLs, and is very unfriendly to small screens), there is nothing obviously wrong with [[:Image:Safariscreenshot.PNG]]. The window has scrolled down as far as possible, bringing the reference into view as requested. This is no different from the result of linking to a reference in a single-column list that's near the end of the page. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 01:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::See DuncanHill's remarks above.  First of all, the backlink letters for reference 7 are clearly wrong: if you look, you'll see that they're overlapping "Obituary" in external links, and are missing from the reference itself (there's just a gap).  By the same token, he says that clicking the <sup>[7]</sup> in the text brings you down to that line in External links, not to the proper place. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Clock offset ==

I have already indicated the time offset I would like in my Preferences and it shows the correct offset and correct subsequent time there, but my clock in the top right-hand corner of my Wikipedia page still shows the default server time without my offset applied. Am I doing something wrong?
Images:
*http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/8/3/f_Time1m_b30592f.jpg&srv=img34
*http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/3/8/3/f_Time2m_178e48e.jpg&srv=img32
[[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 13:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
: As I understand it the clock gadget always shows UTC (server) not your local time.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 16:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::Hmm that's annoying - is there no way at all to change it, then, I take it? [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 20:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The local time is shown on the clock on your PC. The UTC clock gadget is mainly to see what time it is in relation to posts on discussion pages, where the time is always in UTC. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 21:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::::OK, thanks guys. [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 07:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Template self-inconsistent issue ==

Can use a hand from an expert template programmer. History will show the usage was trying to update (suggest at least two tabs), but the base issue is using and example of the template seems to be causing a premature </div> expression. I've tested it using Lorem, against a colored background, and it terminates the color "/div" when it shouldn't. Examining the page source when operating normally, even in the various modes, shows balanced pairs of &lt;div ... /div&gt; as does painstaking counting of pairs inside a text editor.

The only good news is the template (which has a wide distribution) continues to keep working fine on used-on-page inspections, despite a few trial changes as you can see in the history. The only other thing I can think to maybe do is subst the examples I want on a sandbox page, then paste that back in. I'd rather not, as the template is already a long complicated page.

See {{lts|Commoncats}} which generally replaces {commons cat} and {catmore} plus will link multiple categories/articles. Any help on this snag will be truly appreciated. // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 13:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

* Side issue question: Is there a public domain editor compatible from XP out there that will highlight HTML BLOCK ENDS, show mismatches and so forth like some C/C# editors will show nesting issues? /// <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]]

::If you don't get any help here, you probably should try [[WP:RT]].  I think that's where the template experts hang out.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 17:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Thinking in a different box ==

There was a discussion on whether [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Babel#Proposal to disable hotlinking on Meta] to disable image hotlinking recently that had some support but went down in flames anyway after a lengthy discussion. The "problem" there was deemed a paper tiger, but there is a real background problem too. <br /><br
/>The underlying problem remains though which I'll state as: '''''How to stop everyone possessed of excessive juvenile attitudes with a camera phone from getting gratification for abusing our tolerance giving them the ability to upload images while overburdening process  here.''''' I cite as a case in point the crap/trash non-content the ''overworked image specialists'' here have to deal with every day on pages like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_July_28 this here], where one finds images like  [[w:image:L_a52308ea3ce487013591352950f22df6.gif |this gem]] and [[w:Image:L_a930bb0bbc17f88fa2b2d73f9fd9cfc4.jpg| This junk]] (This one struck me as a camera phone, almost certainly), and all this kind of stuff and half a dozen other pages I viewed on en.wikipedia images for deletion on the August 1st log are just trash and a burden on the time of people already overburdened... So the questions ([http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Babel#In_summary asked here first], but the page has "died" for now):

# Does the system software, as I infer, already have some sort of edit count "trusted editor" feature already built in... I refer to my impression that "page move" wasn't available as a tab to me in my early editor days, then became available... seemingly (Actually I was told this by an admin, I believe) because I'd been editing long enough.
## as a further indicator, something like this is already present on the system, the tabs on the commons are somewhat different depending on the page one is on, and there are certainly background variables identifying ME when I view a page source on the browser, that have come from the system.
## in short, I think most of the tech for this is already in place, or could be an easy upgrade.<br /><br />
# Would it be possible to add a bit or bits to control image hotlinking, including to our own pages, until the image was vetted and approved.
# Unlike the site discussed hotlinking block of the Meta discussion, the thought is good editors aren't generally uploading such junk, but are instead more like the guy that uploaded the second image above... someone with essentially no significant edits.... he had four or five, counting the deleted image, and I'll let you judge the merit of the one where he created a page that said "Boobs" <g>
## There is one side issue here too... why aren't the anti-vandalism and new page patrolling folks checking new images and warning their uploaders... the guy had already had one image deleted, yet I was the only one that placed a warning on his page. Harumph!
## Even that little effort would help the image specialists, ''a lot'', I suspect...<br /><br />
# In sum, my concept is if the system were set up so people could upload an image, and if they weren't "trusted editors" then they'd have to find such an editor to vet the image, make sure it was categorized properly and so forth, much as we vet images and re-categorize such as Bot transfered images on the commons from here.
# One would hope that any trusted editor, or admin could and would ''continue having the image link disabled'' and immediately nominate it for speedy deletion... reducing said burden already overloading image specialists. (Which I am certainly not!)
# In my conceptual visualization, the image would be something showing as a blue link on the target page, until vetted... then with the proper dotting of eyes and crossing of tees, would show thereafter.
Thanks // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 14:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:Yes, part 1 does already exist, see [[mw:Manual:$wgAutopromote]]. The problem with the rest of the system is, Tim Starling pointed this out on the poll on meta, that the extra processing effort to determine whether or not the image is hotlinked would be on the same level as the bandwidth used by hotlinking, except in this case, you'd be querying the database instead of checking the request information, so it may be more expensive (computationally), but I'm not sure. However, this would still allow images to be hotlinked, if they were approved, so you would only have a fraction of the bandwidth savings. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 15:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::To clarify, I'm not concerned at all with bandwidth savings or costs in this case, but with discouraging such trash images firstly, and secondly unburdening the already way over worked volunteer staff... if that takes an extra ten thousand or fifty thousand a year, it's still a bargain for the foundation overall... and there are offsetting savings. Also, I believe you would be wrong on the computational costs, as a 'permissions bit check' would mean only a few lines of code in the operating system... at most a few microseconds to substitute a boilerplate image and tag a line "Image not yet released by mediawiki" or some such combination.
:: Given your link data, the cost becomes a check when the image is uploaded... with some kind of block bit set to indicate it's not been vetted. Again, not much processing time for a "one of per image" situation. So I'll take that as a first indicator that the overall scheme is technically feasible. Thanks. Anyone else have two cents on this? // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 15:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The big cost is not on upload (we already have to check usergroups there) or when someone comes to approve the image (basically the same as newpages patrol), those are one-time events, so cost would be minimal. The cost would be checking whether or not each image is approved whenever the server gets a request for it. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Am I being that unclear? ''That'' is the cost... '''all those man-hours''' because we have an overly-liberal always assume [[WP:AGF|AGF]] policy in place that is being victimized to play pranks... ''did you see'' the length of that list page of'' 'delete these image proposals' <u><big>for just one day</big></u>'', forsooth! Doesn't THAT needless work bother you&mdash;especially knowing that it falls on the heads of relatively few of us? This is other people's time were allowing to be wasted... [[leisure time]] DONATED in a thankless task... I'm trying to ''lighten that burden'' for it's the [[Right Thing]] and needs done. (We're all underpaid after all <g>) Those folks are just less appreciated than most... and encouraging the backlog to be continually renewed is the current process. // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 17:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::The larger and more in-your-face you make comments, the less likely people are to read them.  Bold and italic are invariably more than adequate. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 17:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Except, A) This won't significantly reduce the work, it will actually create ''a lot'' of work initially unless existing images are grandfathered in, this doesn't physically stop people from uploading the images, they'll still have to be tagged and deleted or sit in unapproved-purgatory forever. B) Any technical solution has to be approved by the CTO. If it will have a major impact on performance, it likely won't be done, short of intervention by the board of trustees. C) Nobody's forcing people to patrol these images, if they don't like it, they're free to stop at anytime. D) This would require policy changes anyway, why not start with, as Simetrical says below, with a change to the CSD criteria, or trying to recruit recentchanges patrollers to patrol the upload log, as is done on commons? E) You talk about donated ''time'', where do you think the ''money'' for the servers comes from? The only required costs from having these images is bandwidth, storage space, though there is the possibility of copyvios as well. If people don't want to patrol these images, they don't have to. That cost is totally optional. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 19:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't think this calls for a technical fix.  I think it calls for an expansion of speedy deletion criteria for images. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 17:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:Concur on that... ''as a fix'' but not as a 'feature'  and changing just Speedy-D... that puts it all on the admins. The other path is some kind of two man rule, or one man rule check, which can ease the load on admins. // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 17:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

::There should be no problem with load on admins.  As far as I've heard, there are currently not serious issues with admin task backlogs.  If any develop, that problem should be fixed by making more people admins.  In practice, a CSD of "image has no reasonable encyclopedic purpose" should be enough to cut out most of the trash very efficiently.  Say, any image may be deleted if it's been posted for at least a day, is used in no articles, and seems to have no possible encyclopedic use (or for Commons, no possible educational/academic/etc. use). —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

;An alternate proposal <!-- thread short enough to keep together I deem --->

These are just some quick notes, not a full proposal, it would probably need a bit more work to be workable, but its a bit more lightweight than the above one:
:Veteran image patrollers are pretty well trusted and I would bet that having the image patroller and the deleting admin checking the image before deletion in many (most?) cases is just a waste of time.
#Change the CSD image criteria to allow for quicker deletion of obvious crap images.
#Create a new user right/group that only allows deletion/undeletion in the image (talk) namespaces and give it to the experienced image patrollers. This would require far fewer software changes and would have minimal impact on performance, if any.
#:OR
#Create an adminbot that deletes images tagged by approved patrollers. This would require no changes to MediaWiki at all.
--<font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 19:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

4. Wait for the DeleteQueue extension, which will allow separate granting of the right to review image deletions. &mdash; '''[[User:Werdna|Werdna]]'''&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;''[[User talk:Werdna|talk]]'' 23:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:Which may or may not end up existing, may or may not end up getting enabled, and even if it does will be who knows how far down the line.  If it's a problem now, work out a solution now that will work for now.  Don't just wait for months or years for a technical fix.  A great record sweeping technical fixes have: several years for CentralAuth, and we're still waiting for a new image backend.  DeleteQueue sounds great, and it will possibly obsolete any solution decided on now ― eventually. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

::So the change that easiest to implement is ''Change the CSD image criteria to allow for quicker deletion of obvious crap images.'' And the suggested criteria is something like this {{indent}}{{Bull}}(a) over 24 hours old; {{indent}}{{Bull}}(b) not linked to an article; {{indent}}{{Bull}}(c) does not appear in any way{{indent}} to be intended to improve Wikipedia (does not appear to be an image that could be used in an article, nor something else useful, such as a screenshot for an instructional page).  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 17:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

::: OIC, well, I can see having two is a waste... didn't think the community would be so practical, in truth. Soo...
::: '''Support''' most anything along these lines with two reservations... '''1)''' Obvious crap images shouldn't be allowed to hang around '''more than an hour''' if they can be shot on site. '''2)''' Mandantory requirement to tag uploaders page with notice. No exceptions. {{indent}} Delete with permissions per or one of Mr.Z-man's '''2''' or '''3'''' suggestions. (The Bot with approved list sounds really nice.)  So either my two man rule... one tags {{tl|speedy prank image}}, one agrees and closes a deletion... (The former involves non-admins, if they wish. Sorry to be solicitous of Admins time [I'm solicitous of EVERYONE's time, as Jimbo can attest! <g>], but don't ''you guys generally do enough thankless repetitive editing?'' I'd prefer you stay interested in articles edits, myself.){{indent}}Other than that, keep the 24 (or shorter) hour criteria as well so if an admin spots an aged one, it can be killed ASAP. One other alternative path: User check, if made an edit after uploading it... shoot on sight! [or give two hours or something]... if these are legitimate at all, they will be for a user page. If it can't be identified as content that might be user page material... BANG!

:::* Key Point, the longer such pages are allowed to remain... the more rewarding it is for a group of youngsters  goofing off together to laugh about such. These days, phones are even accessing wikipedia... so need to cut cycle time on this as much as possible per "parenting 101" and general psych advice. (Note the NFL/MLB won't telecast misbehaving fans these days... same reason... encourages others.) {{indent}}Can always also tag the user page with ''If you're intentions were to use Image:ZKST*SL@#NSY in an encyclopediac article or user page, contact the below signed administrator after installing the image in a legitmate article or user page... ''something like that''... which iirc, could be monobook.js extension tool made edit, I think to subst the warning/notice template.  // <b>[[User:Fabartus|Fra]]</b>[[User talk:Fabartus|<span style="color:green;">nkB</span>]] 18:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Animation help ==

Good day. I have a question: Why is the animation below not showing correctly in a gallery?
<gallery>
Image:Geneva mechanism 6spoke animation.gif|The animation
</gallery>
<small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Lykantrop|Lykantrop]] ([[User talk:Lykantrop|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lykantrop|contribs]]) 18:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

: Seems to be fixed after puring the image pages here and at Commons (which causes the software to regenerate the thumbnail). [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Thanks! It is fixed, but I do not understand how. What means "''puring the image pages''"?--[[User:Lykantrop|<small>'''<span style="background:Black;color:White"> &nbsp;LYKANTROP&nbsp;</span>'''</small>]] <big>[[User talk:Lykantrop|<FONT COLOR="black">✉ </FONT>]]</big> 08:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::That's a typo for "purging", as in [[WP:PURGE]].-[[User talk:gadfium|<span style="font-family:cursive; color:#808080;">gadfium</span>]] 09:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Allright, got it, cool, thanks, have a nice day!--[[User:Lykantrop|<small>'''<span style="background:Black;color:White"> &nbsp;LYKANTROP&nbsp;</span>'''</small>]] <big>[[User talk:Lykantrop|<FONT COLOR="black">✉ </FONT>]]</big> 10:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Wrong cite ==

In [[Advance-fee_fraud#The_victim_becomes_a_criminal]]. footnote No. 60 does not go to the proper citation. The message says it goes to No. 59, but it actually goes to the bottom of the page. Can somebody fix it? Sincerely, [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 21:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:[[Advance-fee fraud#cite note-59]] works correctly for me. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 00:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::What browser are you using? --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 01:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I am using Safari 3.1.2. This is the link which shows up when I click on footnote No. 60: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_fraud#cite_note-59" Sincerely, [[User:GeorgeLouis|GeorgeLouis]] ([[User talk:GeorgeLouis|talk]]) 07:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
: Are you complaining about the fact that the fragment in the link is "cite_note-59" rather than "cite_note-60", or are you complaining about the bug in Safari where Safari miscalculates the anchor positions of references in the second column? If it's the latter, discussion is currently underway at [[Template talk:reflist]] which will probably result in the removal of the Safari-specific instruction for displaying multiple columns until Apple fixes the bug. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== How large is the wiki database ==

Just curious, how large (in bytes) is the wikipedia database?  I searched but could not find an answer to this question.  The only thing I could find was the amount of articles in English.  Thanks.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.251.111.31|70.251.111.31]] ([[User talk:70.251.111.31|talk]]) 03:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Given the nature of Wikipedia, pinning an exact number of bytes would be an exercise in futility. The number would constantly fluctuate. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Mrrph-mph!]])</sup></font> 06:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

:Since there hasn't been a successful database dump in a long time, nobody can say for certain.  At a rough estimate, I'd say 500 GB for the complete text history of the English Wikipedia; 4 TB for all editions of all projects.  I think that images account for another 4 TB or so, but they aren't stored in the database. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 09:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

== Accidental save to a redirect's Talk page. ==

Hi! I just tried to save an edit to an existing section of [[Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)]].  Instead it got saved to [[Wikipedia talk:Notability people]] (no ()s), creating it.  [[Wikipedia:Notability people]] is a redirect to [[Wikipedia:Notability (people)]].  I clicked the [edit] link for the section on (what I thought was/must have been?) [Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)].  In the history of the firefox3 tab, where I was editing, after a few  "previews" that the target address switched from "... {people)" to just "... people" and stayed that way!?  There were several RO locks while I was previewing. <br>
(I blanked the new talk page, with edit summary.) <br>
How could this have happened?  Did I screw up?  Thanks.  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 18:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
<br>P.s.  Why does an edit preview need an unlocked database?

:I redirected [[Wikipedia talk:Notability people]] to [[Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)]].  I don't know why the database needs to be unlocked for a preview.  -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 20:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:: I think the preview function saves your edit to a temporary database and then reads it back like a normal page (if this is true, it would make sense to me). I don't know if this is true though. — [[User:OranL|OranL]] ([[User talk:OranL|talk]]) 23:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Nope, it just doesn't distinguish very well between transitory lag-based locking (in which case it's probably just fine to show an edit screen or a preview, just not to save it) and ongoing maintenance, which locks the whole editing process. It might be nice for us to improve that. :) --[[User:Brion VIBBER|brion]] ([[User talk:Brion VIBBER|talk]]) 23:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
== Table/Sections problem ==

Hi. Can someone see what's happening in [[User:Mosca/Sandbox]] on Internet Explorer 7? (in other browsers works fine). Look at sections lines, in the first example they are above table. In the second example they are fine. If I remove the image in the first example or remove the following text:
<pre>
''beak can be '''between''' yellow or green depending on the subspecies''
</pre>
it works fine. "Example 3" uses {{tl|Taxobox}} and have the same problem.

'''Note:''' this happens only in Internet Explorer 7 in window resolutions inferior to 1350px (width). You can see another example in [[:pt:Coruja-buraqueira]] (Portuguese Wikipedia). [[User:Mosca|Mosca]] ([[User talk:Mosca|talk]]) 00:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

:Looks fine using [[Mozilla Firefox]] 3.0. Can you help us out and tell us what the difference in the code is (if any)? − [[User:Twas Now|'''Twas ''Now''''']] <small>( [[User talk:Twas Now|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Twas Now|contribs]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Twas Now|e-mail]] )</small> 05:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::As I said, that page its fine in others browsers. I tested on Firefox 3.0.1, Internet Explorer 6, Opera 9.51 on Windows XP x64; and Safari 3.1.2 and Firefox 3.0.1 on Mac OSX 10.5.4. In all of them works fine except on Internet Explorer 7 (note: in version 6 its fine). To see the problem you must see [[User:Mosca/Sandbox]] (test page) or [[:pt:Coruja-buraqueira]] (real example) on Internet Explorer '''7''' in a Window with 1280x960px or less of resolution. This problem was reported on Portuguese Wikipedia. I thought It could be our local CSS, but it happens on english Wikipedia too, even with a simple table (see test page). [[User:Mosca|Mosca]] ([[User talk:Mosca|talk]]) 16:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::: IE7 seems to have several bugs related to italic text and floats.[http://www.google.com/search?q=ie7+italic+float+bug] In this particular instance, it seems to be triggered by having italic text at the end of a line which is sandwiched between two floats. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 17:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::::I made an update to [[User:Mosca/Sandbox]], adding Example 4 (good) same as Example 1 (bad) with italics but without <code><nowiki>[[Image:Burrowing_Owl_Florida.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Florida Burrowing Owl]]</nowiki></code>. Removing the image solves the problem too. Is there any workaround for this in [[MediaWiki:Common.js]] or [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]? It's not very important but should be corrected. [[User:Mosca|Mosca]] ([[User talk:Mosca|talk]]) 18:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Images behind text ==

I was trying to create an simple gradient that I could use behind some text on my User page, but I can't figure out how to get the image to be displayed behind the text. It just moved the text down to the next line after the image. I looked through the Help space on Wikipedia and on Meta, but I wasn't able to find anything that talks about this issue. Does anyone know a way to make this work? — [[User:OranL|OranL]] ([[User talk:OranL|talk]]) 23:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:You can use CSS positioning, I suppose. Kinda dirty, but it should work.
<div style="position:relative;">
[[File:Olive baboon1.jpg|200px|border]]
<div style="position:absolute; bottom:0; left:140px; width:200px; font-size:140%; font-weight:bold; color:#000;">
O hai.
</div>
</div>
:If you want more information, Google around for a bit with the term "CSS positioning." --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:: Aha! Thank you for the help! — [[User:OranL|OranL]] ([[User talk:OranL|talk]]) 17:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::: P.S. After you told me how to do that, I found [[m:Composite images|this page at Meta]] talking about how to do this very thing. Thanks for showing a good example though. It was very helpful! — [[User:OranL|OranL]] ([[User talk:OranL|talk]]) 20:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Coodinate problem ==

Does anybody know why when you click on the coordinates in an article it returns "Fastcgi Protocol Error". An example is [http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kelowna_International_Airport&params=49_57_22_N_119_22_40_W_type:airport here], which may come up as a HTTP 500 error in IE. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] [[User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Have a gorilla]] 04:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:Posted too quickly. I found [[Template talk:Coord#Fastcgi error now in Coord display]] and [[Template talk:Infobox nrhp2#Latitude/longitude links aren't working]] and a qucik check of [[Coloma, California]] would seem to indicate that the coord template is the problem. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] [[User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Have a gorilla]] 04:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:After checking out various templates it appears that none of the coordinate templates ([[:Category:Coordinates templates]]) other than the geolinks-country ([[:Category:Geolinks templates]] work. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] [[User_talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Have a gorilla]] 04:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::Extensive discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Fastcgi error]], including the section immediately below that one.  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 13:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Inbuilt timeline ==

I was wondering, is it possible to somehow incorporate the [[WP:MAGIC|magic word(s)]] for "current date" and the timeline? As you can see from [[Template:MedComChair]], I haven't had any luck to date. Cheers, [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 08:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:Instead of using <tt>&lt;timeline> ... &lt;/timeline></tt>, use <tt><nowiki>{{#tag:timeline| ... }}</nowiki></tt>. That will allow magic words to work inside the timeline tag. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 20:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:MedComChair&diff=prev&oldid=230087467 <3]. Thanks so much! [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 23:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
== WP Logs ==

Are the web logs available that show the browsers that access Wikipedia? --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 11:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:This information is stored, and can be accessed on a per-edit basis by [[WP:CHECKUSER|checkusers]] (that is, they can see what browser was used to make an individual edit!), but it is not available publically due to privacy concerns.  Do you, by any chance, want to see some compiled statistics to construct something like [[:Image:Usage share of web browsers.png|this]] for pageviews to en.wiki?? If so, consider me fully behind the idea... if not, consider it suggested {{mono|:D}} [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 12:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

::That is exactly what I wanted.  Looks like it pretty much matches market share.[http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=114] Thanks.  This is for the discussions at [[Template talk:Reflist]] --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 13:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::The link ''is'' market share.  It's not Wikipedia-specific. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Thanks- I misunderstood that. I need the Wikipedia browser usage. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 16:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Wikipedia basically only keeps detailed information about ''edits'', and that is only available to checkusers. If you're asking about details for ''page views'', the answer is that the volume is so huge (Wikipedia - across all languages - ranks something like the 8th-most viewed domain) and there is no one using the details, so it's discard fairly quickly (somewhere between a day and a week), and isn't available without a [[subpoena]], because of privacy concerns (as in, who is reading what?).  (The Wikimedia Foundation has occasionally made sampling info available to researchers, I believe, but I'd guess that they removed any info - like the full IP address - that could have privacy implications.)  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 16:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::That's not really true.  There are Squid access logs that are kept, at least sampled ones, for some period.  They aren't made publicly available in full, but some kinds of summaries are available.  [[User:Midom]] would probably be the one to ask, since I think he's the one who keeps them. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 18:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
See '''[[MediaZilla:15059]]'''! --- Best regards, [[User:Melancholie|Melancholie]] ([[User talk:Melancholie|talk]]) 16:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:I did find [[Wikipedia:Browsers]], but that was last updated in 2004. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 21:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== "Search in history" ==

Am I going crazy, or is this new? Is it possible (through some javascript wizardry, or otherwise) to move it to the bottom of the page? It's kindof distracting. –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 01:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:Well, you might be crazy, but the feature is new. It was added on August 1 (see [[rev:38404]]). It currently doesn't have an ID, making hiding it using CSS difficult, but an ID was added in [[rev:38605]], which, if not reverted, will be live in a few days or less. As for JS solutions, try [[WP:US/R]]? --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 05:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
=== Page History format ===

<small>Copied from Help Desk for further help, by Franamax [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 08:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)</small><br />
People would now recognise that ever since a couple of days ago there is now a search item at top of each page's history to filter the date and year just like user contributions. Is there anyway through scripts or anything at all that can change this, whether it be delete it or maybe move it to the bottom of the page? Is this at all possible? Thanks, sorry for my 'me knowing nothing' in regard to these sort of things. '''''[[User:Da monster under your bed|<font color="darkblue" face="Tahoma">Monster Under Your Bed</font>]]''''' <sup>([[User_Talk:Da monster under your bed|talk]])</sup> 08:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:Aggh, I can make it disappear (see [[User:Franamax/monobook.css]]) but it leaves a big blank spot. And I hadn't even noticed until I read this. Maybe better asked at the [[WP:VPT|technical]] help desk? [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 08:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::You're looking for
<syntaxhighlight lang=css>
#mw-history-search {display: none;}
</syntaxhighlight>
::[[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 09:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Wheee! Thanks for the help. When I learned CSS, we cut the stylesheets out of cardboard. Also I only read the first three pages. Thanks. :) [[User:Franamax|Franamax]] ([[User talk:Franamax|talk]]) 09:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Do we have someplace where these snippets are listed? --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 12:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*Sexy, thanks! –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 18:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:Thanks Franamax and thank you for the script Happy-melon! :) '''''[[User:Da monster under your bed|<font color="darkblue" face="Tahoma">Monster Under Your Bed</font>]]''''' <sup>([[User_Talk:Da monster under your bed|talk]])</sup> 07:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== All pages being "protected from being created"? ==

Hi. I am not sure if this is the best place to enquire, but: I keep being told that "the title X is protected from being created", seemingly regardless of what X might be. Help! [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 09:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)<br/>PS Creating categories seems to work.

: I'm getting this when trying to move templates (which I know is one of your favourite pastimes). There definitely doesn't appear to be salting on the new titles. Specifically, {{tl|infobox Dogbreed}} → {{tl|Infobox Dog breed}} is refusing to work. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 10:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Working again. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 11:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::* So it is. Thanks. [[User:Sardanaphalus|Sardanaphalus]] ([[User talk:Sardanaphalus|talk]]) 11:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:This could be the result of some recent [[MediaWiki:Titleblacklist]] tampering. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 20:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::For a while, the blacklist prohibited any pagemove to a title containing the letter "p".  Might this have been what you were running into? --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] ([[User talk:Carnildo|talk]]) 22:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== Re: history search ==

Hi!  It's wonderful the way wikimediawiki just keeps improving all by itself.  Magic! <br>
Would it be possible to do a string search in (a subset of) the historical revs of an article?  I have often run across an old vandalism but didn't know what the original text/intent was.  Finding it required a search through the history.  Tedious!  That's what computators are for.
If one could search (a la "grep -c vandalism") then it would be trivial to spot the first occurrence of the string thence the original text. <br>
Such a search could be optioned to stop at the 1st non-occurrence, for just this case and to save load.  <br>
Thanks.  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 19:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:http://wikipedia.ramselehof.de/wikiblame.php –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 20:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
::WOOHOO!! WP* is the coolest.  There has GOT to be a link to this on the History page!  Better, a link to a WP/WM page with lists of History utilities.  Thanks!  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 23:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I've added a link to [[MediaWiki:Histlegend]].  I'm not sure if it'll stick because it's an external link that doesn't point to the toolserver, but it is definitely a valuable tool. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 14:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Great!  Thanks!  It's unfortunate that it's lost in the boilerplate, though.  I'm glad to know it's there now, just yesterday I was looking too css that block away and got distracted!  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 16:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== Add new magic word ==

<nowiki>{{PAGENAMENODISAMG}}</nowiki> or something similar. This would act like <nowiki>{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki> but would only return the page name to the last word before the first instance of a '(' i.e it would return Seán French  from [[Seán French (1890-1937)]] or John Horgan from [[John Horgan (Cork politician)]] [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 23:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:If you're linking to the page, the [[WP:pipe trick|pipe trick]] is sufficient. Typing <nowiki>[[Foo (bar)|]]</nowiki>  in edit mode will give <nowiki>[[Foo]]</nowiki>. [[User:Pegasus|Pegasus]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Pegasus|&laquo;C]]&brvbar;[[User talk:Pegasus|T&raquo;]] 02:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::The pipe trick doesnt work with <nowiki>{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki>[[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 07:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Arguably, a more general pipetrick parser function would be the better solution. &mdash; '''[[User:Werdna|Werdna]]'''&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;''[[User talk:Werdna|talk]]'' 12:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::Maybe so which is ever easier [[User:Gnevin|Gnevin]] ([[User talk:Gnevin|talk]]) 13:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== Page Errors ==

Why do wikipedia pages show a lump in IE8. It is quite fine in FF3.Do i have to install any plugin for ie8 to see them right ? My ff3 crashes when i browse wiki pages Unlike http://knol.google.com I aso Emulate IE8 to IE7...but no change :-(
<br /><b>;-) By [[User:DualHelix|127.0.0.1]] ( [[User_talk:DualHelix|<font color="LimeGreen">Report</font>]] ) </b><b>[ <sup>[[Special:Contributions/DualHelix|Evidence]] </sup>| <sub>[[User:DualHelix/AB|Block]]</sub> ] On :: </b> 12:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:Not to answer the question directly, but I note that [http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/default.mspx IE 8 is currently a beta (non-stable) version]. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 14:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

::Define "lump".  I have been playing with IE8B1 and have not seen any new issues. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 21:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== OS ==

On Which Unix / Linux does WP work. (Distribution Name)<br /><b>;-) By [[User:DualHelix|127.0.0.1]] ( [[User_talk:DualHelix|<font color="LimeGreen">Report</font>]] ) </b><b>[ <sup>[[Special:Contributions/DualHelix|Evidence]] </sup>| <sub>[[User:DualHelix/AB|Block]]</sub> ] On :: </b> 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:Wikipedia is a ''website''; it requires no plug-ins on installation or special software. Basically, if you can install a web browser like Firefox on a Unix/Linux system, then you can read and edit Wikipedia. (Your question is basically similar to asking about operating systems that [[Google]] works on.  Google works when you have a working web browser.  Wikipedia works when you have a working web browser.) -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 14:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

::If you're asking about the infrastructure of the servers that Wikipedia uses, [https://wikitech.leuksman.com/view/Main_Page Wikitech] is a good place to start. The [https://wikitech.leuksman.com/view/OS_differences OS differences page] answers your question. Ignore any certificate erros you get when visting the above [[HTTPS]] pages. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 14:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::''(ec)''To be fair, the Wikipedia database is stored on, and the wikipedia website is hosted from, a set of servers that run Unix (IIRC). So there is merit to the question. [[User:Happy-melon|<b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>]]‑[[User talk:Happy-melon|<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b>]] 14:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:::See [[Wikipedia:FAQ/Technical#What software is used to run Wikipedia?]] which will lead you to [[m:Wikimedia servers|Wikimedia servers]]. --—<i><b>—&nbsp;[[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray;">Gadget850&nbsp;(Ed)</span>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Gadget850|<sup style="color:darkblue;">talk</sup>]]</b> - </i> 15:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The servers used to serve Wikipedia and its sister sites run exclusively on [[Linux]].  Currently [[Ubuntu]] is favored, but there are lots of old [[Fedora Core]] machines, and apparently some [[SUSE]] variants too according to those links.  Most of the toolserver servers run [[Solaris]], though, and of course there are desktops in the office that run Windows, Mac, etc. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 18:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:[[m:Wikimedia servers]] is incorrect, there are no servers running SUSE. Albert did a long time ago, but it was reinstalled with Fedora Core, before it was eventually decomissioned. Also, the FreeBSD test on isidore was removed long ago, replaced with Fedora Core and then Ubuntu. Everything at pmtpa is running either FC or Ubuntu. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 01:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== A new page in my userspace about page history ==

See [[User:Graham87/Page history observations]] for, among other things, an demonstration that cut and paste page moves are very bad and can have permanent consequences. That page is also a good indication that I need to get a life. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 14:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

:I only skimmed the contents of your page, but is anything at your page not covered at [[Help:Moving a page]] that should be? − [[User:Twas Now|'''Twas ''Now''''']] <small>( [[User talk:Twas Now|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Twas Now|contribs]] • [[Special:Emailuser/Twas Now|e-mail]] )</small> 20:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

::The way I do page history merges of large pages wasn't covered anywhere. I've added a note about it at [[Help:Moving a page#Merging page histories of pages with many revisions]] and [[Wikipedia:How to fix cut-and-paste moves#Merging page histories of pages with many revisions]]. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 01:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
== Change DATE from monthname year to year-month ==

I've raised a [[Template_talk:DATE#Use%20ISO%208601%20formats|question]] about changing the {{tlx|DATE}} from the format ''monthname year'' to ''year-month'' so it addhere's to the only accepted international standard [[ISO 8601]] and the de facto standard used in (nearly) all template date parameters here at en-wiki. Today the {{tlx|DATE}} is extensively used by {{tlx|fact}} for filling out the <code>date=</code> parameter. Should {{tlx|DATE}} be changed to {{tlx|DATE2}} or should {{tlx|fact}} use the ISO 8601 compliant {{tlx|DATE2}} directly? [[User:Nsaa|Nsaa]] ([[User talk:Nsaa|talk]]) 07:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
:I'm a proponent of using the ISO-8601 date format. It makes dates so much easier to compare. However changing the {{tl|DATE}} template is too risky. Instead making {{tl|fact}} refer to {{tl|DATE2}} would definitely be an improvement. &minus;[[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] ([[User talk:Woodstone|talk]]) 07:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

::I've raised a question about changing the fact, s it uses DATE2 here [[Template_talk:Fact#Use_DATE2]]. Probably some bots needs to be updated(?) [[User:Nsaa|Nsaa]] ([[User talk:Nsaa|talk]]) 07:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

:::I've made a request [[Wikipedia:Bot_owners%27_noticeboard#quick_question_re:_templates_template:DATE.7C_and_template:DATE2.7C|here]] to see if I can figure out which bots are affected.  once that information comes, I'm happy to make the change - doesn't look too difficult on the face of it.  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 03:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't see why we need to change to suit someone else's standards; however, if this proposal is carried out, please make sure that ''all'' the date-based categories are renamed accordingly (for example, [[:Category:Wikipedia articles needing style editing from August 2008]]). --[[User:R'n'B|Russ]] [[User talk:R'n'B|(talk)]] 10:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::It's not proposed to suit someone else's standards. As far as I have seen the ISO format is used for (most of the) date parameters in templates here at en-wiki and is a [[de facto]](?) standard on the project. [[User:Nsaa|Nsaa]] ([[User talk:Nsaa|talk]]) 15:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

::::The bot [[User:SmackBot#Current_tasks]] uses it and all the templates listed under #4: {{tl|wikify}}, {{tl|orphan}}, {{tl|uncategorized}}, {{tl|uncatstub}}, {{tl|cleanup}}, {{tl|unreferenced}}, {{tl|importance}}, {{tl|expand}}, {{tl|merge}}, {{tl|copyedit}}, {{tl|fact}}, and {{tl|not verified}}) and as Russ points out the category must be renamed ([[:Category:Wikipedia maintenance categories sorted by month]]) [[User:Nsaa|Nsaa]] ([[User talk:Nsaa|talk]]) 15:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Template problem (switch always forces new line?) ==

Can someone fix this?  Look at [[User:Wknight94/KCChiefsColorStyle]].  No matter what I do with the transcluded template, [[User:Wknight94/TeamColor]], I always get a new line in between the "color:" and the color code.  It's as though the <nowiki>{{#switch:</nowiki> statement always returns with a new line at the beginning.  What gives?!  Known issue?  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 20:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:The problem isn't the switch, it's that the # character is being interpreted as a ordered list. One option is to have the template output something like <code>color: #xxxxxx</code> instead of just <code>#xxxxxx</code>. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 20:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::That's what it was doing.  But, in another case, a template took only the color as a parameter.  But I can't get the carriage return out of there.  style="color: white" doesn't work if there is a carriage return between color: and white.  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 21:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Use a format like this, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Wknight94/TeamColor&diff=230275912&oldid=230275761] , change "white" to "ffffff", and remove all the # symbols from colors inside the switch. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 21:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::::I see what you're saying but I actually have a second problem.  I need the first template to return "color: white" and then the second template to return just "white".  In some cases I need the first, in others I only need the second.  Rather than duplicate every team in both, I was going to have the first template return "color:" plus the results of the second template.  I modified my example a bit to more closely fit my original problem.  See the new [[User:Wknight94/TeamColorStyle]] intermediate template.  Some places may want to use [[User:Wknight94/TeamColorStyle]] but some - like {{tl|Tnavbar-header}} - may need only the color component, "white", not the full "color: white" string. —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 21:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::How do you feel about the solution at [[User:CBM/Sandbox2]], tested in [[User:CBM/Sandbox]]? &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>([[User:CBM|CBM]]&nbsp;·&nbsp;[[User talk:CBM|talk]])</small> 21:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::Okay, maybe I'm brain dead.  Explain again why yours is working and mine isn't?!  The switch is actually ''evaluating'' the # in the results of each case of the switch statement?!  That seems bizarre.  Why isn't it just macro-substituting it the way I want it to?  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 22:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Oh yeah, look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:CBM/Sandbox2&diff=prev&oldid=230287146 this].  It works.  Wow, that's annoying.  But thanks for the help!  :)  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Definitely a known issue. I recommend reading the advice at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 43#Line break before #switch]]. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 15:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== subst with MagicWords ==

Hi!  Is there a way to get the functionality of <nowiki> {{subst:PAGESINCATEGORY:cat}} </nowiki>?  Thanks.  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 05:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:That's already possible. For example, <nowiki>{{subst:PAGESINCATEGORY:Contents}}</nowiki> produces 16. Is that what you mean? --- [[User:RockMFR|RockMFR]] 05:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::So it is.  Must have tyoped.  Thanks.  [[User:Saintrain|Saintrain]] ([[User talk:Saintrain|talk]]) 20:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Odd blue link ==

Anyone know why [[:Image:Infineon_Raceway.gif|this deleted image]] has a bluelink ? - [[User:Peripitus |Peripitus]] [[User talk:Peripitus|(Talk)]] 07:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:It's on [[Wikimedia Commons]]. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 07:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
::I feel silly now - that was obvious - [[User:Peripitus |Peripitus]] [[User talk:Peripitus|(Talk)]] 07:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== After-move advice is incorrect ==

As I understand it, now that [[bugzilla:4578]], "Page moves should not create double redirects", has been implemented, per [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-07-28/Technology report#New features]] and [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-July/038751.html this posting at Wikitech-L], double redirects <s>are largely a thing of the past</s> should be significantly fewer.  (It's possible to tell the software to let a double redirect be created, by unchecking a box before doing a move, but it seems fairly obvious that few editors will do that.)

But the "Move succeeded" page still says ''Please check whether this move has created any double redirects, and fix the most serious ones. ... A bot will fix the rest within a few days.''  That seems incorrect. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 14:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:For reference, it's at [[MediaWiki:Movepage-moved]]. [[User:PeterSymonds|PeterSymonds]] [[Mediawiki talk:Movepage-moved#Don't rely on bots|responded]] to an {{tl|editprotected}} with a wait-and-see, but that was a while ago now. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 14:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks. I see that Peter posted on the 28th of July, saying to wait "a week or so".  (And I've corrected my first posting here; as can be seen at [[Special:DoubleRedirects]], double redirects are not yet a thing of the past. But I did check a few on the list, and none seemed to have been created by a move; I also tested the MediaWiki software by moving a user page a couple of times, and it performed as expected.)  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 17:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== Special:Search repeated link in boilerplate ==

I hereby inform you that search results like

 Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Carmel apple in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

  • Start the Carmel apple article or add a request for it.
  • Search for "Carmel apple" in existing articles.
  • Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title.

Contain a repeated link: of the four links, the first and third are
the same. Please compact this template to not mention the same action
twice. [[User:Jidanni|Jidanni]] ([[User talk:Jidanni|talk]]) 17:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:The text is from [[MediaWiki:Noarticletext]], not from a template. And you already posted about this at [[MediaWiki talk:Noarticletext#repeated links]], in September 2007, and were not able to get any support for a change. -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 17:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

== "Placename dropping" in captions without saying where the place is ==

Know what bugs me the most? People who put [[Teaser trailer|teaser]]s like

<nowiki>
[[Image:Water Flash.JPG|thumb|right|Water reflecting light in [[Crissy Field]]]]
</nowiki>

in an article, causing people to have to click to find out where in
the world "Crissy Field" is.

There ought to be a law/policy/encouragement saying that no fair
"place [[name dropping]]" like that without also mentioning more of an
anchoring location, e.g., Crissy Field, England, etc. [[User:Jidanni|Jidanni]] ([[User talk:Jidanni|talk]]) 01:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

: I don't think that this is the right forum for that kind of proposal; in fact, the best place would probably be the appropriate MOS page at [[WP:MOS]]. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 01:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
== <s>Deadlocking</s> Things being generally slow and interrupted lately ==

Is it just me or has the database been locking awfully frequently the past week or so? Is there some reason behind this? <s>In other news, I'll buy a pony for anyone who can simplify the code in {{tl|Anarchism sidebar}} without altering its visible output.</s> [[User talk:Skomorokh|<span style="font-family:Garamond; color:black;">Skomorokh</span>]] 03:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

:Locking or deadlocking? They're two different things. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] ([[User talk:Tim Starling|talk]]) 05:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
:: "Locked until the slave servers catch up to the master" (or words to that effect) is a lock message I have seen somewhat frequently in the past week or so.  I think that is maybe what he is referring to.  --<span style="color:blue">[[User talk:Grey Knight|<sub>tiny plastic</sub> Grey Knight]]</span> <span style="color:#777">[[User:tiny plastic Grey Knight|&#x2296;]]</span> 17:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the technical language from a non-tech. I' getting an awful lot of "Database locked", "changes from last X seconds may not show up on your watchlist", "Wikipedia has a problem" and "Wikipedia error" messages in the last two weeks. I assume this is a problem with the Wikipedia side of things rather that with mine. Is there a reason for this, I am wondering? Is this impression shared by others?[[User talk:Skomorokh|<span style="font-family:Garamond; color:black;">Skomorokh</span>]] 10:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
:I have noticed this occuring more frequently than usual recently. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 12:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
::Me too! [[User:Deamon138|Deamon138]] ([[User talk:Deamon138|talk]]) 21:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
:::I think everyone has noticed this. If I were to guess, it's that money isn't flowing as freely as it was before. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 04:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

== How can I see only the pages that directly "links here" ==

I am working at a meta template. For example [[Template:ombox]]. After editing it, I want to see how it affects the pages that contain it. So I push the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Ombox "What links here"] link. Then I get a list with a few thousands pages. Now, it's quite unlikely I will have the time to check all of those pages to see if my modifications are ok. So I need to see a list of templates that directly use "ombox", not all pages that use it indirectly. Is there any way for getting that list? [[User:Ark25|Ark25]] ([[User talk:Ark25|talk]]) 10:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

:No, not without checking the page text. There's no difference between transcluding a template directly or by transcluding another template that in turn transcludes the same template. --[[User:Erwin85|Erwin85]] ([[User talk:Erwin85|talk]]) 10:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

:: Ooops! there is the option to select "namespace". It's ok now, sorry. [[User:Ark25|Ark25]] ([[User talk:Ark25|talk]]) 11:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

:::Just to make it clear for other readers of this section: Right, when on the "What links here" page, select the "Namespace: Template" and click "Go", that shows only the templates that use the meta-template, thus you don't see all the articles that use it. That also gives you any redirects to the template and any template /doc pages that link to the template, but that is usually just a handful and can be pretty interesting to see.
:::--[[User:Davidgothberg|David Göthberg]] ([[User talk:Davidgothberg|talk]]) 11:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

== Random number ==

Is there a parserfunction or some variable that can return a random number? I'm trying to implement a template that returns one of several messages and intend getting the random number mod x, where there are x messages, to decide which one to use. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 13:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:We had this discussion recently: [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 43#Random number generation]]. {{tl|rand}} amd [[User:Misza13/Random]] are both available. [[Portal:Middle-earth/Random-article]] uses a similar approach. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 13:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

== Connection problems to normal site (secure site OK) ==

<s>Hi all - having problems connecting to the main site (en.wikipedia.org).  Connection times out / Page Load error.</s>

Tracert to en.wikipedia.org is fine (200.80.152.2), and it pings back OK.  I can access and login through the secure site, but it's quite slow, and the images are broken (referencing the normal site I assume).  Trying to access any of the other language sites also times-out.  Connecting through a computer on a different network (ie: iPhone) works fine.

Just trying to track this one down to see if it's a problem with my ISP doing some sneaky-yet-broken "transparent" caching, or if it's related something else (?).  ISP is Telus.net in Canada.  IP is 64.180.100.xxx

Any thoughts?  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Nogami|Nogami]] ([[User talk:Nogami|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nogami|contribs]]) 21:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Proposal: Move main page to a different namespace ==

I would like to propose that we move the [[Main Page]] to [[Wikipedia:Main Page]]. This would offer a number of benefits, including:
* Causing the top-left tab to read "project page" instead of "article"
* Making it easier to make a mass-copy of Wikipedia's articles without picking up project-specific pages like the main page

There would of course be a redirect from [[Main Page]] to [[Wikipedia:Main Page]], and we could even hide the "redirected from [[Main Page]]" notice using CSS, making the transition virtually seamless. The German Wikipedia has actually their main page to the Wikipedia namespace and it is working great for them. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 05:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
:I find illogical that the Main Page be in the article namespace, too, but wouldn't this proposal belong to [[Talk:Main Page]]? --<span style="font-family: monospace; font-weight: 600; color: #00F; background-color: #FFF;">[[User:Army1987|A&nbsp;r&nbsp;m&nbsp;y&nbsp;1&nbsp;9&nbsp;8&nbsp;7&nbsp;]][[User talk:Army1987|!&nbsp;]][[Special:Contributions/Army1987|!&nbsp;]]</span> 09:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It's been proposed a few times, never seems to go anywhere. Doesn't bother me much, but whatever, I could go either way. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 02:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

: This would probably have a lot of opposition and discussion before it went anymore. I don't think it's such a big deal and it doesn't need to be changed. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 07:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

: I disagree with this. The main page is actually part of the encyclopedia, even though it contains a lot about the workings of wikipedia as well. --[[User:Apoc2400|Apoc2400]] ([[User talk:Apoc2400|talk]]) 19:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

::It will still be part of Wikipedia, just in a different namespace so that the software doesn't think it's an article. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 19:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I think this is more trouble than it's worth. I don't count either of those arguments as particularly convincing- knocking up some coding to change the tab to read something different (I'm fairly sure it used to read something else anyway) shouldn't be too difficult for someone who regularly plays with that sort of thing. As for the other issue- if someone is going to the trouble of copying our millions of pages, I don't think it would be too much trouble for them to filter out those that they don't want. In any case, that's hardly our concern. As for an argument for keeping it as it is- don't try to fix what isn't broken. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 20:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
**We tried coding things specially around the main page, and the developers rejected it. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ANstab-main&diff=217955007&oldid=215091279] and [[:bugzilla:14267]], which was closed as WONTFIX because any way we do it it just comes down to being a hack. Moving the main page to the Wikipedia namespace, on the other hand, is a much more elegant solution that shouldn't upset the developers. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 20:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
*<s>'''Support'''</s><small> change to support for "Portal"; see below</small>. I don't know how hard it is or whether it's really worth it; that's something that would need to be evaluated. But I do think it's clearly the right thing to do, if costs are not considered. Titles in article space are supposed to be about the concept (or at least ''a'' concept) standardly referenced by their names. Outside of a specifically WP context, no one considers ''Main Page'' to refer to the topics treated on the main page. So having it by that name in article space is incorrect. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 20:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
::What name space is say WP:NOPV in?[[User:Geni|Geni]] 20:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
:::Wikipedia space. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 20:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Hmm missed that change. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=CAT&namespace=0 this lot then].[[User:Geni|Geni]] 20:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Is this important?''' Both of the advantages cited above are (in my mind, anyway) pretty trivial (regarding the second, since the Main Page is, to my knowledge, the only "non-article" page in mainspace, I have no idea what else would incorrectly be caught by a "mass-copy", and in any case this proposal won't fix those other pages).  So, yes, I'll concede that the Main Page belongs, in a theoretical sense, in projectspace, but is this really worth all the time and energy it will take - assuming it will be successful - to make the change?  Perhaps we could work, instead, on something else - say, the hundreds of thousands of stub articles, or all of the [[CAT:M|maintenance]] backlogs?  -- <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:15px;">[[User:John Broughton|John Broughton]] </span>  [[User talk:John Broughton |(♫♫)]] 21:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
**It will actually take very little time and energy to make the change - moving the main page can be done by any administrator, and [[Main Page]] will be made into a redirect to [[Wikipedia:Main Page]]. To ease the transition, a simple CSS declaration will keep the "redirected from Main Page" notice from appearing. And since the change is so subtle, I suspect that most people won't even notice. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 21:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
***They will also have to change [[Mediawiki:Mainpage]]. [[User talk:Algebraist|Algebraist]] 22:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
****Yes, I know. I probably should have been more explicit about this in my last comment, but still, it's not hard. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 22:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
*****Then there are the subpages, the backup pages, the redirects... Then there will need to be the technical updates (changing what en.wikipedia.org takes you to) updating the various links (such as in the sidebar) and probably other things- I'm really not a techy. Please don't pretend that this is a simple two minute job. Also, it's ironic that you advocate "a simple CSS declaration" after arguing against my advice to use such a thing to change the tab claiming that it is "a hack". [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 09:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
******[[CSS]] is much, much different than [[JavaScript]]. If someone doesn't have JavaScript, then the change won't work at all. If someone doesn't have CSS, they'll just see the "redirected from..." notice and be slightly more motivated to update their links to the main page. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Not broken, no point in fixing''' though if you really want the work of updating ALL of the main page templates, copies, and every page that links to it on all wikimedia projects, and do so ''seamlessly'', I don't see the harm in it either [[User:Modest Genius|<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:maroon;">Modest Genius</b>]] [[User_talk:Modest Genius|<sup>talk</sup>]] 22:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
**Yes, there will be a redirect [[Main Page]] → [[Wikipedia:Main Page]], the "redirected from" text will be hidden, no links will break, and I will help update the links anyway. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 22:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' I think things are fine, no real reason to do all of that. [[User talk:Chillum|<span style="color:green;">'''Chillum'''</span>]] 22:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
**Really, it's not as much effort as you think. Moving the main page is a straightforward process, and in fact has already been done on the [[:de:Wikipedia:Hauptseite|German Wikipedia]]. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 22:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
***It is not broken, no need to fix it. I don't think "Article" space is all that inaccurate, it is like the front page. It's content is article content, it is the result of a project. It is part of our encyclopedic content, not some area for meta discussions or other page only tangentially related to our encyclopedic content. [[User talk:Chillum|<span style="color:green;">'''Chillum'''</span>]] 23:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Question:''' Shouldn't this discussion, ''which seems to be the 50th or so time this '''proposal''' has been debated'', be on [[WP:VPR]] instead? Why is on '''WP:VPT'''? If this proposal has been discussed on-and-off every month for the past few months, it is more than just a mere technical issue you know. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 02:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**I really think it boils down to a technical issue, but all the same I've left at note at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Move main page to Wikipedia namespace]]. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 04:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
***Has anyone put this on [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]]? I didn't see it. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 06:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
****I've left a note at [[Wikipedia:Requested moves#19 July 2008]]. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**Sorry, I had copied the discussion to [[Talk:Main Page]], but forgot to announce that here. --<span style="font-family: monospace; font-weight: 600; color: #00F; background-color: #FFF;">[[User:Army1987|A&nbsp;r&nbsp;m&nbsp;y&nbsp;1&nbsp;9&nbsp;8&nbsp;7&nbsp;]][[User talk:Army1987|!&nbsp;]][[Special:Contributions/Army1987|!&nbsp;]]</span> 08:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' This does make a lot more sense and the ''it ain't broke so don't fix it'' argument is a bit silly, I mean, we could have Wikipedia's user skin looking like absolute crap, usable, but horribly ugly, so ugly that no one would use Wikipedia. It wouldn't be broken, but we'd still want to fix it. —Atyndall <sup>&#91;''[[User:Atyndall|citation]] [[User talk:Atyndall|needed]]''&#93;</sup> 04:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*:That argument is fallacious. The "ain't broke, so doesn't need fixin'" argument is an argument that there is no problem or that the "fix" does not provide a benefit, not an argument that a problem doesn't need improvement. <nowiki>{</nowiki>{[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]<nowiki>|</nowiki><span class="plainlinks">[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Nihiltres log]</span>}<nowiki>}</nowiki> 23:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The Main Page doesn't really belong in the article space.  It would also make a bit more sense for new people to see the first page they go to be titled "Wikipedia:Main Page" (which looks like "Wikipedia Main Page), even if they don't understand the role of the colon.  There wouldn't really be any problems with implementing this, since as others have said there would be a redirect from [[Main Page]] to [[Wikipedia:Main Page]] and the text saying it's a redirect would be hidden.  All links would still work and the Main Page would fit better in the Wikipedia namespace.  -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 05:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**In fact, we could even use a specialized version of [[Template:Wrongtitle]] to hide the "Wikipedia:" and make the page title still appear as "Main Page" to casual users. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 06:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
***BTW, why on Earth is the 'P' in 'page' capital??? --<span style="font-family: monospace; font-weight: 600; color: #00F; background-color: #FFF;">[[User:Army1987|A&nbsp;r&nbsp;m&nbsp;y&nbsp;1&nbsp;9&nbsp;8&nbsp;7&nbsp;]][[User talk:Army1987|!&nbsp;]][[Special:Contributions/Army1987|!&nbsp;]]</span> 08:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**'''Note''' I change my support to [[Portal:Wikipedia]] (see below) -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 16:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Since when has Wikipedia been about ''it ain't broke so don't fix it''? Wikipedia is '''all''' about slow improvement, through minor fixes, cleanup, and reformatting. Ideally, Wikipedia should always be considered "broke", and we should always be fixing it. This is a logical move, and most people won't even need the redirect as simply going to en.wikipedia.org lands you on the main page. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 05:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
::[[:de:Hauptseite]] - See the redirect in action. Neat! ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 05:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Support''' [[Portal:Wikipedia]] even more, as it is even logicaler. Also a great way to introduce readers to the idea of portals. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 17:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - Didn't the upper-left tab used to read "Main page" at one point? I'm sure, because I remember thinking how intriguing it is to see that different from every other page. Don't know why they changed it though. I really don't know what to think, I too could go either way on this one. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 08:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''A simile''': The Wikipedia space is made for editors. Placing the main page into the Wikipedia space forces casual readers into the background of Wikipedia, where they do not want to be. It's like placing the reception desk at a sports club in the manager's office- instead, it should be right in front of the door in an accessible place, pointing people to the facilities they want. Visitors should have to go into the manager's office only if they want to make a complaint or have some business of some sort with the club. Someone who has come along to use the facilities has no business with the manager and has no desire to be in his or her office. [[User:J Milburn|J Milburn]] ([[User talk:J Milburn|talk]]) 09:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**The article space is made for articles. Placing something that is clearly not an article in the article space is counterintuitive. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 19:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', there's not much point in this. The redirect will not be hidden for browsers and other pieces of software that don't support CSS, like mobile devices, old [[screen reader]]s and text browsers. Also, as far as page history is concerned, the title [[Wikipedia:Main Page]] is problematic: it was the original title of [[Wikipedia:Community Portal|the Community Portal]], but now that is very difficult to figure out because of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Main_Page&diff=6448853&oldid=6447261 a page move to a very bad title which can only be undone by developers]. I have filed [[:Bugzilla:13729|bug 13729]] to get the revisions where the page was moved to the Community Portal undeleted. If the move goes ahead, the page move revisions mentioned in bug 13729 should be undeleted and moved to the right place, and [[Wikipedia:Main Page]] and its talk page should be moved to a subpage of [[Wikipedia:Historical archive]], so it becomes marginally easier to follow talk page conversations like [[Wikipedia talk:Main Page/Test#All main pages seem ugly to me|this one]] by just following old links, logs and history. This may seem trivial, but there is no point in losing page history just because of a namespace conflict that wasn't even thought of four years ago. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 16:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**The links will get updated to counter the effects of the page move on screen readers (I'll help with this). And remember that when visiting the site from http://en.wikipedia.org/ users are automatically taken directly to the main page. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 18:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**As for the deleted page history, I agree that it should be moved to a subpage of [[Wikipedia:Historical archive]]. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 19:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - We're going to turn tens (hundreds?) of thousands of direct links into links to a redirect so we can have different text in the little tab (which we can change, and I believe did change in the past, using JavaScript) and to provide a minor convenience to people who download all the articles but don't want the main page (I don't think its been confirmed that most people who do this don't want the main page either)? I really don't see the point. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 18:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**The JavaScript hack was even worse of a hack than the hack the developers rejected. The redirect will be transparent like the German Wikipedia has, and links will be migrated over. And [http://www.answers.com/topic/Main_Page Answers.com], for one, does not want our main page. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 18:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
***As far as I can tell, the JS hack was replaced by a change to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ANstab-main&diff=215077936&oldid=16503565 MediaWiki:Nstab-main], but when this was reverted for performance reasons, the JS hack wasn't put back in. So there was never even a discussion about leaving the tab as "article" AFACT. The JS hack was just a few lines of code, I can't imagine it was causing any issues. The bug was WONTFIX'd because it was deemed unnecessary (by 2 developers) to add such a feature to the core MediaWiki code just for a couple projects like ours, not because it was a horrible hack. As for migrating the links, how is this planned to be done? <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 21:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
****Please reread the last two comments to [[:bugzilla:14267|bug 14267]]:
;Comment #12 From [[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] 2008-07-02 <nowiki>01:02:18 UTC</nowiki>
<pre>
Reusing [[MediaWiki:Mainpage-description]] is definitely the wrong way to go
about this.  Reusing messages is usually a bad idea.  It's perfectly plausible
to want something different in the nstab and the sidebar, e.g., "Back to Main
Page" might be appropriate for the sidebar but not the nstab.  Also, if the
main page is in a namespace whose nstab description is appropriate, say
"project page" or just "page", there's no reason to change it, so any change
should be strictly optional.

Do keep in mind that with the default messages, there's no problem at all.  The
default nstab for namespace 0 is "page", which is totally appropriate for the
main page.  If enwiki wants to create problems for themselves by changing what
namespace 0 is supposed to contain and then refusing to actually stick to their
decision by leaving the main page there, that's not something we need to
consider supporting in software, IMO.  If they think the extra X lines of
JavaScript are superior to adjusting their other customizations, that's their
decision as site admins.  Lots of people do stupid stuff with the software --
we don't have to support it just because it happens to be a big wiki.  In the
software as shipped, this is a non-issue.

Suggest WONTFIX.
</pre>
;Comment #13 From [[User:^demon|^demon]] 2008-07-02 <nowiki>01:11:56 UTC</nowiki>
<pre>
(In reply to comment #12)
> ...If enwiki wants to create problems for themselves by changing what
> namespace 0 is supposed to contain and then refusing to actually stick to their
> decision by leaving the main page there, that's not something we need to
> consider supporting in software, IMO...

I agree with you fully here. Like I said, this comes down to being a hack.

> Suggest WONTFIX.
>

You've convinced me. Marking as such.
</pre>
:::As you can see, the developers clearly viewed adding special behavior for the main page as a hack and furthermore called the JavaScript hack "stupid". JavaScript is not a good solution here because it won't work for screen readers, text-only browsers, and search engines, and it also adds a very large about of overhead compared to changes in page content or changes in MediaWiki.
:::Anyway, I can help clean up the links using [[WP:AWB|AWB]], and if that proves too overwhelming then I can write up a script or a bot to do the job for me. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
::::So a couple people dislike the Javascript hack, instead of not caring, we're going to move the page, then run a script to make thousands of edits to update all the incoming links. I would hardly call a handful of lines of Javascript (which is cached anyway) a large amount of overhead. I'll ask again what I asked before: Have there been any complaints or comments from readers, such as on [[Talk:Main Page]] about the tab? I haven't seen any. This seems like a bit of an imaginary problem. As far as people downloading all of Wikipedia and not wanting the main page, how many are there? I just don't think this is worth the trouble. The benefits are minimal to non-existent, and one of the benefits doesn't even benefit Wikipedia directly. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 23:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
:::::But that's just the thing: you won't have to go through any trouble. [[Main Page]] will continue to work as before, and I will be working to transition the links over to [[Wikipedia:Main Page]] anyway. You just have to sit back and relax.
:::::Another benefit is that moving the page to the Wikipedia namespace would also allow us to create an article at the location [[Main Page]] should the need ever arise. It's not a problem right now, but it could become one in the future. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', the main page belongs in the mainspace along with the rest of the reader-facing encyclopedia pages. Project space is for pages that are related to the internal workings of the project. [[User:Christopher Parham|Christopher Parham]] [[User talk:Christopher Parham|(talk)]] 18:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**It's a technical issue; readers aren't even going to notice... —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 19:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
***zee yellow background is pretty noticable.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 00:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
****What do you mean? —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 06:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*****I believe there are certain configurations to allow the background of project pages to appear a different colour. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 18:56, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', basically agree with Z-man.  And Remember the dot, as much as you insist that this is just a "technical issue," it's a much-debated and very contentious topic here, and I doubt you'll get consensus to make it happen. -[[User:Elmer Clark|Elmer Clark]] ([[User talk:Elmer Clark|talk]]) 20:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**Why is it so contentious? Nothing's going to break, nothing's going to be deleted, and we would pick up a couple of improvements. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*<s>'''Oppose'''</s>. <s>(now '''Neutral''' on [[Portal:Wikipedia]].)</s>Now '''support''' [[Portal:Wikipedia]] following [http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=38730 the implementation of Bug 15007].  Even if we were to move it, it's not a "[[WP:PRJ|project]]" page (i.e., one that deals with the administration of Wikipedia), it's a [[WP:PORTAL|portal]] page.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 22:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
**It's easier to move it to the Wikipedia namespace than to the Portal namespace because it enables us to be more consistent with other Wikimedia projects that do not have a Portal namespace. The German Wikipedia, for example, has their main page in the Wikipedia namespace, and it would be good for consistency if we did the same. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 23:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
***If consistency were our goal, we'd be pressuring de.wiki to move their main page back to mainspace, which is where most Wikimedia projects keep it.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 07:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - without reading earlier post, I can assure you this has been brought up several times, and either rejected or closed as no consensus on each occasion. With all due respect, RTD, this is almost certainly the wrong venue; wouldn't this be better as a(nother) requested move or at VPP? [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 23:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', headache-causing solution looking for a problem. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 01:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' — Not only would this proposal cause a number of technical headaches if implemented (omitted here for succinctness), but it also has questionable benefits: "project page" is not much better than "article" (indeed, I prefer "article" as it introduces the interface nicely for readers) and excluding the Main Page from an article dump is a trivial task. Further, it seems to me to be semantically less correct as well: as Father Goose mentions, Wikipedia-namespace pages are, semantically, for the administration of Wikipedia rather than for Wikipedia's content: the Main Page is much more of a content page regardless of its special status as pseudo-content. Personally I think the ideal would be to make the Main Page a Special-namespace page through an extension of some sort (while still using the name "Main Page"), but that's beyond the scope of this discussion. <nowiki>{</nowiki>{[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]<nowiki>|</nowiki><span class="plainlinks">[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Nihiltres log]</span>}<nowiki>}</nowiki> 03:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' even if it was moved to the project space the title "Main Page" would always have to be a permanent redirect to the new main page just due to that fact that there are millions of on wiki and off wiki links to it and since the title of the page is not viewable except in the url it would really not change a thing. In short its useless work for the devs. - [[User:Icewedge|Icewedge]] ([[User talk:Icewedge|talk]]) 03:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''<s>Support</s> ''[edit: I support SamuelWantman<nowiki>'</nowiki>s alternate proposal, below, instead]''''' - There is nothing encyclopedic about the "Main" page. It is merely there to highlight the accomplishments of the project that is Wikipedia as a whole. If someone were to create a "Most interesting articles about topic X" page, it would quickly get moved from the article namespace. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 03:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
**I've changed my support to the [[Portal:Wikipedia]] proposal, below. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 05:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
***"Not encyclopedic"? Have you even looked at the page? Just because it does not have citations does not mean it is not encyclopedic. I see ''loads'' of encyclopedic information that changes every day. It is, if anything and as was mentioned above, a psuedo-article. In fact, it's almost a preface to articles. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 19:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
****A pseudo-article?  No, it's nothing at all like an article.  It's '''exactly''' like a portal, because that's what it is.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 19:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Wouldn't this make the title say 'Wikipedia:Main Page' rather than 'Main Page'? Isn't that, you know, much uglier than 'Main Page'? &mdash; '''[[User:Werdna|Werdna]]'''&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;''[[User talk:Werdna|talk]]'' 08:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

===Arbitrary break to the first mention of Portal:Wikipedia===

*'''Oppose Wikipedia:Main Page, <s>might</s> support [[Portal:Wikipedia]]'''  I don't think it is a administrative page, so it does not belong in Wikipedia space.  It is the portal to all of Wikipedia, so why not call it that?  -- [[WP:CI|&#x2611; ]]<b>[[User:Sam|Sam]]</b><font color="#CCCCFF">uelWantman</font> 05:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
**You're idea is intriguing, and I think it would be beneficial to, in addition, garner more attention toward portals, as a whole. I think if Wikipedia were refactored to project a more of a "Portal" atmosphere (e.g., wherein visitors' first destination when entering Wikipedia is a portal of some sort), it might be better. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 06:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
***Considering how much support the idea is getting, I have gone on record as supporting my suggestion! -- [[WP:CI|&#x2611; ]]<b>[[User:Sam|Sam]]</b><font color="#CCCCFF">uelWantman</font> 08:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''', but I expect we won't do this until the day we need to have an article about a novel called [[Main Page]]. I encourage every novelist out there to write one to force us to do this move. [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 09:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
*:To make it clear, I support moving out of article space, and don't really care whether the main page ends up in Wikipedia space or in portal space. [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 06:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' It's not an article. Taking it out of article space is long overdue. The "it's not broken" parochialists need to think about those who use our data dumps. — [[User:Hex|<span style="color:#000">Hex</span>]] [[User_talk:Hex|<span title="Hex's talk page"><span style="color:#000">(❝</span>'''<span style="color:#900">?!</span>'''<span style="color:#000">❞)</span></span>]] 10:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The Main Page being in article-space is causing problems; there are more places where the Main Page has to be special-cased than you might think. (For instance: the 'cite this article' link in the sidebar, edit counts, the number of articles has to have 1 subtracted from it to allow for the main page, the namespace tab says 'article' by default unless fixed with JS (and the devs refused to fix it on the server because it would cause too much load), bots will treat the Main Page as if it were an article unless special-cased,  and so on. Besides, think about which deletion process would be used to delete the Main Page: surely, it should be MfD, not AfD!) This isn't a difficult change to make, several other Wikimedia wikis have done it already, and the old name will continue to work (we can put a redirect there). --[[User:ais523|ais523]] 15:26, 21 July 2008 ([[User:ais523|U]][[User talk:ais523|T]][[Special:Contributions/Ais523|C]])
* '''Support''': per ais523. --[[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] ([[User talk:MZMcBride|talk]]) 15:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support [[Portal:Wikipedia]]'''  The [[Main Page]] doesn't really belong in either article space or Wikipedia space (as noted by others).  However being in portal space does seem appropriate.  [[Portal:Wikipedia]] sounds much better than [[Portal:Main Page]] and is exactly what the page would be -- a portal to Wikipedia. -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 16:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' I don't like how [[Portal:Wikipedia]] moves all the content down to accomdate for the <big><big>Portal:Wikipedia</big></big> title. If that could be gotta rid of, then I'd probably support (weakly). –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 02:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
**Done, just [[WP:CACHE|bypass your cache]] and it should be gone. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 03:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
***Kindof nitpicky, but the background is blueish whereas the mainpage background is white. As such the background for "In the news" kinda bleeds together. –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 03:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
****Everything in the Portal namespace has that slight blue tint...perhaps we should simply make all portal pages have a white background? —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 03:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*****I don't visit portal pages enough to make an informed statement on that. –<span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">'''xeno'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Xenocidic|<span style="color:black;">talk</span>]])</span> 03:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*****The color of that specific page can easily be changed from blue to white via CSS.  But yeah, given the fact that a portal is part of the encyclopedia proper (as opposed to the surrounding project), it probably ''is'' a good idea to change the default color from blue to white.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 03:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
******I like the blue color. Please don't change it. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 08:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong support.''' [[Portal:Wikipedia]] is a perfect name that would simultaneously resolve several issues (incorrect namespace, incorrect tab label, and the common complaint that the term "main page" is a misnomer).  It also would help new users to understand our namespace setup (including the fact that only articles should lack a prefix) and draw more attention to the portal namespace.<br />Arguments against a move are based on the incorrect beliefs that the current title causes no problems and that a move would be difficult to handle.  (In actuality, [[Main Page]] would function as a redirect, and a bot could repair all of the double redirects in a matter of moments.)  This really would be a significant improvement, and I don't see any real downside.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 03:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support ''Portal'' ''' It does seem to be a portal, more than anything else.  Really I don't think the main page is quite like anything else; strictly speaking it should probably have its own namespace all to itself, but that might be pushing people's patience. I would note here that I don't really ''care'' about the technical issue the original proposer brought up — I have my own software to write and don't have time to care about MediaWiki internals. I think ''users'' should not see [[Main Page]] as an article, because it isn't about any concept standardly called ''Main Page''. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Question''' - Is there any reason that the redirect notice hasn't been taken off the main page anyways? Because if this change is made, then redirects like [[Portada]] will no longer show as redirects. If we don't want them to show, then why hasn't this already been fixed? If we do, then what do you propose to do about it after the move? ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 04:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
**I'm not sure...it was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3AMonobook.css&diff=169421592&oldid=165978525 removed] last November following [[MediaWiki talk:Monobook.css/Archive 4#Not hiding #contentSub on the Main Page|these notes]]. When we first start transitioning, it would probably be better to simply transclude [[Portal:Wikipedia]] back into [[Main Page]], making Main Page take on whatever content is in Portal:Wikipedia without it being an actual redirect. After a few months and we're sure everyone's comfortable with Portal:Wikipedia, we could make it into a real redirect and the "redirected from..." text would serve to encourage people to update their links to Wikipedia. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 04:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
***Ps. The original AN thread that led me to remove the hiding code is archived [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive107#Link?|here]].  —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 05:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
****BTW, a sysop might want to take a gander through [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Main_Page&limit=500&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1] the current redirects to the MP, as I'm sure a few don't need to be there. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 20:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong support.''' Moving the Main page to portal space also makes a stronger case to use a more inclusive portal design that incorporates aspects of the encyclopedia and the community that develops it. With the proper sprucing up for a consistent layout and palette, the main page redesign proposal, [[Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal/RichardF2|RichardF2]], just as easily could be located at [[Portal:Wikipedia]]. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 16:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per David Levy and Trovatore. At this point, I honestly can't see any further valid objections to this outside of I(DONT)LIKEITs. —[[User:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: blue;">Dino</span>]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: green; font-weight: normal;">guy</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: orange;">1000</span>]] 16:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Question''' - <s>So, it seems pretty clear that a consensus for [[Portal:Wikipedia]] is forming</s>. At this point, what exactly is the rest of the proposal? If I am clear, Portal:Wikipedia will be transcluded on the main page for a period of time, however long is felt is needed to make people comfortable. People will use bots or whatever to convert all the old links to the new links. Then the main page will then be redirected to P:WP. The redirect may or may not be hidden. Did I miss anything? ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 17:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
**Wouldn't a redirect be better than transclusion? [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 17:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
***Not at first, if the idea is a "seamless" transition. If it is transcluded first, then every thing that links to it can be fixed before it is redirected with little headache. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 20:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
**JohnnyMrNinja: No, there is not necessarily a consensus forming. That those who have opposed above the "Portal:Wikipedia" line have not reiterated their opposes below the line does not invalidate their opposition to such a change. <nowiki>{</nowiki>{[[User:Nihiltres|<span style="color:#233D7A;">Nihiltres</span>]]<nowiki>|</nowiki><span class="plainlinks">[[User talk:Nihiltres|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log?user=Nihiltres log]</span>}<nowiki>}</nowiki> 19:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
***Okay, but many of the arguments against the move were negated with the new title, as the main page ''is'' a portal, not an article or project page. My basic point was, a lot of people are now supporting this proposal, but as the proposal has changed, we should clarify what it is exactly. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 20:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. Should've been there in the first place if you ask me. It it's moved there, we could have an article about [[main page]]s.
*Still '''oppose''', as it is still a solution looking for a problem (we can change the tab name for all mainspace articles to "page" and nobody would blink), and per [[Tim Berners-Lee]]'s eloquent reasoning on this [http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI here]. Even if we changed the name of the page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page would need to continue being an access point to the Main Page, negating the possible benefits. [[User:Titoxd|Tito<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[WP:FAC|cool stuff]])</sup> 09:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''- the Main Page does not belong in the article namespace and I don't think it belongs in the Wikipedia namespace either. I think [[Portal:Wikipedia]] is the perfect place. It fits the conventions of Wikipedia perfectly. [[User:Scottydude|Scottydude]]  <sub><small>[[User talk:Scottydude|talk]]</small></sub> 00:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I have to agree with Titoxd on this one, it's just a solution looking for a problem. I like the Portal namespace idea much better than the Wikipedia namespace idea, but I still see absolutely no valid reason to make any changes. As Titoxd also points out, most people will still be using [[Main Page]] if such a change was implemented. All for the sake of changing the tab. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 19:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::"All for the sake of changing the tab"?!  I can only assume that you haven't bothered to read the discussion.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 19:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh I have all of it, but at the end of the day the tab is what it all boils down to and seems to be the only ''real'' benefit (which in itself is ''still'' trivial). I can think of a lot more actual negative effects it would have as opposed to these trivial benefits. I see absolutely no solid reason to change it and that is where I stand on this issue. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 19:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::::Benefits of '''far''' greater significance have been cited.  I'm at a loss as you how you could arrive at the conclusion that this is all about the bloody tab.
::::Could you please elaborate on the "negative effects" that this change would have?  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 19:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Firstly, I don't buy the aforemented benefit that "Portal:Wikipedia" would be less confusing than "Main Page". If I were someone who had never been on Wikipedia before, I would find Portal:Wikipedia much more confusing than the self-explanatory Main Page. Sure, those that dig a little deeper and have a strong interest in a particular subject will come across Portals, but why should casual readers who may just want to look one or two things up have to learn what a Portal (in the Wikipedia sense) is? Main page has the obvious strong connotation that it is basically the main page or index of the English Wikipedia. Also, the fact [[Main page]] would be a permanent redirect says it all to me really. I'm opposed. You cannot sway me on this one. --'''[[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">.:</span>]][[User:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Alex</span>]][[User talk:.:Alex:.|<span style="color:#66CDAA">:.</span>]]''' 19:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::1. You needn't agree with other people's arguments, but you shouldn't misrepresent them.  Your claim that the proposed move would be "all for the sake of changing the tab" conveyed that "changing the tab" is the sole justification behind the proposal.  That's flagrantly false.
::::::2. No one is arguing that readers would instantly gain a better understanding of the page's nature from the title "Portal:Wikipedia" than they do from "Main Page"; we're noting that the latter confuses their understanding of Wikipedia itself (''not'' of this specific page).  For many people, this is their first exposure to the site, and it's rather unfortunate that we start them off with an incorrect page title in an incorrect namespace.
::::::3. I still don't see how "Portal:Wikipedia" is remotely difficult to understand.  No one expects new users to possess immediate familiarity with our "portal" namespace, and no such knowledge is required; "portal" is a common English word meaning "an entrance or a means of entrance."  Why would someone fluent in English not interpret "Portal:Wikipedia" to mean "an entrance to Wikipedia"?
::::::4. I still await your citation of "a lot [of] negative effects" that the proposed move would cause.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 20:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Having the main page hosted in article space never confused me; in fact, I never gave any thought to it until remember the dot raised it as an issue here.  I can see how it causes minor problems for bots and other things that deal with the entire mainspace as a whole, but I doubt it's caused problems for regular users.
:::::::My claim about the page title "Portal:Wikipedia" is not that it's "hard to understand", but that it's awkward and non-intuitive.  I can only think of two cases where the title is a factor, but they're important ones: web search results and bookmarks.  "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" is a good title for a bookmark to Wikipedia's front page; "Portal:Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" is not such a good title.  Yes, people could get used to it, but why choose an awkward title in the first place?  Yes, portal means door, but "Portal:Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" really doesn't say to me "this is the front page of Wikipedia".  "Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" does, and just "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" does even more.  I click on that, I know I'm going to Wikipedia.  I may know that "portal" means "door" (though it has stronger sci-fi/fantasy connotations to me), but if I see that in a page title, I would think, "that can't be the front page... who would use a weird title like that?"  That really would be my first reaction.
:::::::There's probably nothing more we could say to each other about the page title, but let me ask you this: do you actively oppose having the page title be just "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"?  I personally can support the move to portal space, but not if it comes at the price of giving the front page what I consider to be a really strange title.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 08:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

*'''Strong support''' - the main page is a portal; this makes perfect sense! — [[User:Jrockley|Jack]] ([[User talk:Jrockley|talk]]) 02:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Strong support''' either Portal: or Wikipedia:. Just get it out of the articlespace; it's an embarrassment. [[User talk:Skomorokh|<span style="font-family:Garamond; color:black;">Skomorokh</span>]] 11:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''', provided a redirect exists. -- <sub>[[User:Escape Artist Swyer|Escape Artist Swyer]]</sub> <sup>[[User talk:Escape Artist Swyer|Talk to me]]</sup> <sub>[[Special:Contributions/Escape Artist Swyer|The mess I've made]]</sub> 19:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Neutrality''' - caught between the cross-fires of the preservation of the "Main page" title and the conventional correctness of the Portal: space. -- <strong>[[User:Anonymous Dissident|<span style="font-family:Script MT Bold;color:DarkRed">Anonymous Dissident</span>]]</strong>[[User_talk:Anonymous Dissident|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:Gray">Talk</span></sup>]] 10:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - the main reason for doing this seeems to be the convience it offers to other sites that want to mass-grab Wikipedia articles but not the Main Page. I think we should organise the site based on what offers the greatest convenience and familiarity to ''our'' users rather than commercial mirror sites. After all, if having the Main Page in the articles dump is such a problem for them, why can't Answers.com just add <nowiki>"If pages.has_key("Main Page"): del pages["Main Page"]"</nowiki> or the equivalent in whatever language their grab script uses? [[User:Cynical|Cynical]] ([[User talk:Cynical|talk]]) 16:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' "Portal: Wikipedia"; '''Support''' "Wikipedia: Main Page". For one thing WP:MAIN is consistent with the naming conventions for other in-house and Wikipedia-based pages (such as Wikipedia: Village Pump). "Portal" is not a term in wide use in Wiki, and I would even go so far as to argue that despite attempts to make the concept something of widespread use in the world in general, it simply hasn't caught on. I agree with the idea of making the make title more specific, but I feel [[WP:KISS]] should apply. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] ([[User talk:23skidoo|talk]]) 22:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose, as usual.''' As was already mentioned above, this seems to be a perennial solution in search of a problem. This project is, or is supposed to be, ''for our readers'', and I've yet to see any compelling reason this would serve their interests. Should we assume that all people, including thousands of casual, technically unsavvy users, will understand namespaces from the get-go? Do we think many of our readers really give a damn what a silly little tab says? Why break thousands of incoming links? Why is a JS hack to remove the redirect text any better than a JS hack to change the tab text? What does this have to do with building an encyclopedia? &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 21:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

===Also move [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia community]]?===

* '''Comment / expanded proposal.'''  I was thinking.  If it makes sense to move the Main page to portal space, then it really makes sense to move [[Wikipedia:Community portal|Wikipedia:Community ''portal'']] to portal space.  Saying that, now seems to be an excellent time to take advantage of the current [[Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal|Main page redesign discussions]] and pull together these top-level pages into a coordinated redesign.  As a proof-of-concept demonstration, [[Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal/RichardF2]], can be used to illustrate the direction this top-level Wikipedia portal can take. The final version would need consensus on content, layouts and palettes.  Some of the key points follow.
** Move [[Main Page]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia]].
** Move [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia community]].
** Tie the two pages together with a common, tabbed, box and palette style.
*** Use [[Portal:Wikipedia]] as “The encyclopedia” main navigation page.  Its role is to present
**** the primary topical navigation structure for articles as presented by the [[Portal:Contents]] subpages, and
**** the full range of featured, timely and developing content.
*** Use [[Portal:Wikipedia community]] as “The community” main navigation page.  Its role is to present
**** the primary navigation structure for key project pages, and
**** the hub for locating timely project information and resources.
:[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 02:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
**'''Very strongly oppose''' - The Community Portal is not a portal as it intended for editors only. Putting it on the Main Page would be exactly the type of self-reference that we must avoid on the user-side. Regardless, this idea is an ''entirely'' different one than whats going on here, and for the sake of developing consensus please keep the topic on moving the Main Page only. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 03:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
***I can appreciate your position, but I must respectfully assert that attempting to pull together disperate discussions on changing the Main page ''is'' on topic. I made my point and I'll leave it at that. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 03:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
**I also oppose moving [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia community]].  The use of the portal namespace is for perusing Wikipedia's encyclopedic content -- tables of contents, basically.  The community portal is a project page, and is appropriately hosted in project space, regardless of having the word "portal" in its name.--04:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
***I agree, and I suggest (as I did once before) that [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] be moved to a different title in the Wikipedia namespace (without the word "portal"), thereby eliminating the implication that it relates to the pages in the Portal namespace.  How about [[Wikipedia:Community gateway]]?  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 07:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
****If I were going to create a signature portal for Wikipedia with two tabs - one for the encyclopedia and one for the project/community, I would use the style of naming conventions on other tabbed portals.  The second page would use the same language as the tab.  So, this other page would be called either [[Portal:Wikipedia/Project]] or [[Portal:Wikipedia/Community]]. If [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] stays in project space, the new page would have to link/transclude/duplicate relevant sections. If [[Wikipedia:Community portal]] moves to portal space, I would use one of the above subpage names. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 14:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
*****Just a point of clarification. Conceptually, [[Portal:Wikipedia community]] and [[Portal:Wikipedia/Community]] mean the ''same thing'' to me. If this proposal actually got implemented, [[Portal:Wikipedia/Community]] probably is the preferred syntax. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 15:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
****I once read somewhere that the two main ways any web page/site can increase its traffic is to be both an authority and a hub for its core topics.  If that's not the primary function of a Wikipedia portal, then I'm not sure why we bother having any. I really don't care so much about the names of these two pages as I do their functions. If Wikipedia is going to have a signature portal, then it should have a constellation of sections about the encyclopedia and a constellation of sections about the community working on the project, just like every other portal. The primary rational for moving [[Main Page]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia]] IMHO, is to serve that end.  ''That's'' why this expanded proposal is "on topic." [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 14:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
* '''Support [[Portal:Wikipedia]] and [[Wikipedia:Community]].'''  RichardF's proposal makes sense, but while the Main Page is set up like a portal, the "Community Portal" really isn't one, as it is intended for editors and not readers.  Renaming the Main Page to [[Portal:Wikipedia]] will really help to spotlight portals and familiarize new users with them, and renaming the Community Portal to [[Wikipedia:Community]] will prevent confusion over calling it a portal.  [[User talk:The Transhumanist|<i>The Transhumanist</i>]]  02:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support [[Portal:Wikipedia]] and [[Portal:Wikipedia community]].''' per [[User:The Transhumanist|The Transhumanist]], [[User:GDonato|GDonato]] ('''[[User talk:GDonato|talk]]''') 15:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
* '''Comment.''' If the Main page moves to portal space, then it should be designed to serve the ''dual'' functions of a portal - for readers ''and'' editors.
<blockquote>
Portals are pages intended to serve as "Main Pages" for specific topics or areas. Portals may be associated with one or more WikiProjects; unlike WikiProjects, however, they are meant for both readers and editors of Wikipedia, and should promote content and encourage contribution. ...

The idea of a portal is to help readers and/or editors navigate their way through Wikipedia topic areas through pages similar to the Main Page. In essence, portals are useful entry-points to Wikipedia content. — [[Wikipedia:Portal]]
</blockquote>
:[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 16:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose [[Portal:Wikipedia community]]''' [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 08:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
**I didn't give a reason before. I'll add now that I agree with JohnnyMrNinja's reasons. [[User:SharkD|SharkD]] ([[User talk:SharkD|talk]]) 22:06, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Portals are for readers too; they should have encyclopedic content that meets the core content policies. Unless its a portal ''about'' the Wikipedia community as an encyclopedic subject, it should be in Wikipedia-space (though [[Wikipedia community]] is just a redirect, so it still shouldn't get a portal even if there was some encyclopedic content). <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 22:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
* Portal: is a content namespace, and probably should not be used for project purposes. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 21:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

===Why not [[Portal:Main Page]]? ===

That's what some other wikis use (in their own language). (oh, and I '''support''' moving it into the portal namespace in any form) --[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] ([[special:contributions/Random832|contribs]]) 20:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
:It is literally true, and (I think) looks better.  Also, [[Portal:Wikipedia]] puts it right in line with naming conventions. To the uninitiated, [[Portal:Wikipedia]] makes more sense than [[Portal:Main Page]] (it's a portal to the main page?). [[Wikipedia:Main Page]] looks like "Wikipedia - Main Page" or something, so that makes sense. The only reason (that I can see) to favor [[Portal:Main Page]] over [[Portal:Wikipedia]] is for nostalgia. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 20:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

:"Main Page" doesn't comply with our style guidelines, and while "Main page" is an option, many users have commented that this term doesn't accurately describe the page's nature.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 20:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' to all. The main page is just the main page; while technically in article space, I feel it does not belong in any other namespace. Any change that will place it in Portal: or Wikipedia, while still showing the same URL, is non-sensical and changes nothing with regard to the viewer. It also potentially creates headaches when editing. <span style="font-family: verdana;"> — [[User:Edokter|<span style="color: #008;">'''''E''dokter'''</span>]] • [[User_talk:Edokter|<span style="color: #080;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 14:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
**I probably haven't been clear enough - here is how the proposal would be implemented:
**# The main page would be moved to [[Portal:Wikipedia]]. [[Portal:Wikipedia]] would be temporarily transcluded back into [[Main Page]], so that the two pages work identically while we move the links to the main page to [[Portal:Wikipedia]].
**# After the links have been transitioned and everyone is comfortable with [[Portal:Wikipedia]] (perhaps about a month after step 1), [[Main Page]] would be changed to a simple redirect to [[Portal:Wikipedia]].
**So the URL will change like you wanted: http://en.wikipedia.org/ will point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Wikipedia. And when editing Portal:Wikipedia, "Editing Portal:Wikipedia" is prominently displayed, so editing should still be straightforward and not very confusing. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 01:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

===Back to discussing [[Portal:Wikipedia]]===
*'''Support''' - I'm much happier with the new proposal. There are no page history concerns, and, as pointed out on my talk page, once the redirect from [[Main Page]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia]] is implemented, it will affect everyone equally. The move will also increase many people's portal talk edits, which seem to be [[Wikipedia:Song/The RfA Candidate's Song|absolutely essential for passing RFA]]. :-) '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 06:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' I don't think there should be a namespace listed in the page's title on the main page. For instance, Wikipedia would appear on Google as "Wikipedia:Main Space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" which is not friendly at all. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">[[User:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">Gary</span>&nbsp;<b style="color:#02b;">King</b>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Gary King|<span style="color:#02e;">talk</span>]])</span> 06:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*:If you [http://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia google "Wikipedia"], the first link that comes up is just "Wikipedia".  The second is "Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".  That would become "Portal:Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" under this proposal.  I agree that's not the most user-friendly name.  Are there better options?--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 07:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*::Actually, it wouldn't even become that, because when you're just casually viewing the page we have it tweaked to just display "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". This should be much more friendly and intuitive for people bookmarking the page. [[Portal:Wikipedia|Go try it out for yourself]]! —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 16:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*:::I believe that tweak is done via javascript, and Google ignores it.  (See [http://www.google.com/search?q="portal%3Awikipedia+-+wikipedia" this search].) "Portal:Wikipedia" is a good choice from a technical viewpoint, but is still a hideous page name/title.  Unless we can get the page title hardcoded as "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", I'm drifting from neutral back toward oppose on this.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 09:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*::::What's so bad about the title "Portal:Wikipedia"?  I fail to see how it's even slightly objectionable, let alone "hideous."  I definitely would prefer that Google users see "Portal:Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" (an introduction to our portal namespace) instead of "Main Page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" (a title that violates both our naming conventions and our namespace conventions, thereby encouraging users to do so with pages that they create).  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 10:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*:::::I can tolerate it in the URL (URLs are notoriously ugly), but in the page title, it is unnecessary, weird jargon.  You and I may be wikiheads, but the rest of the world is not going to look at a link named "Portal:Wikipedia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", and think, "oh, that must be the front page".  "Main page - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" is reasonably recognizable for what it is, as would be just "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". (However, I doubt Google will parse the page-fixing javascript -- if the devs agree to hard-code a special page title for Portal:Wikipedia, that would take care of my concerns.)
*:::::It's not that users' access to Wikipedia will be disrupted by its front page having a "weird title", but why face them with a weird title at all?  If Microsoft used the name "Portal:Computer" in Windows, they'd be a laughingstock.  (As it is, it took them all these years to finally figure out "My Computer" is stupider than "Computer".)  We shouldn't be introducing users to a weird titling scheme when they just want to browse the site.  We should be trying to show them page titles that make sense to them instead of one that is chosen for our own weird technical reasons.  The fact that the front page is a "portal" or a "specially-handled article" or any other special status within the MediaWiki software is something we want to make invisible to most users.  We might move it to portal space for technical reasons, but let's keep the technical stuff behind a panel.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 10:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
*::::::I strongly disagree with both your assessment of the title and your assessment of what readers should see.<br />I don't regard "Portal:Wikipedia" as remotely "weird."  A new reader won't (and needn't) immediately understand the concept of "namespaces," but it's obvious that such a title refers to a portal to Wikipedia.  (Even if someone is unfamiliar with our specific use of the term "portal," it's a common dictionary word.)<br />I agree that readers needn't be exposed to "technical" stuff, but that isn't what this is.  It's a reader-oriented setup that assists in site navigation.  We ''want'' to introduce readers to our basic naming conventions (or at least ''not'' greet them with a page that doubly misleads them in this respect).  I contend that immediate exposure to the portal namespace would be beneficial and that exposure to the blatantly incorrect title "Main Page" is detrimental.  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 12:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
*:::::::Portal is the namespace I always forget exists. I see portal links everwhere, and it's like water off a duck's back. I have never really looked at one, let alone edited one. I think this naming would bring new people more in line with the idea of a portal being the way to navigate WP, and will bring a lot more attention to Portals in general. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 08:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
*::::[http://209.85.173.104/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&gl=us&q=cache%3AJh0YQ-AtiVsJ%3Aen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPortal%3AWikipedia&btnG=Search Google's cache of Portal:Wikipedia] was made on the 21st, before the title-tweaking code was added on the 23rd. We should wait a while and see if Google's next cache refresh solves the problem. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 22:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Wouldn't it have to be '''Portal:English Wikipedia'''? [[User:Phlegm Rooster|Phlegm Rooster]] ([[User talk:Phlegm Rooster|talk]]) 08:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*:No, that's covered by the en. at the beginning. To people reading and searching in English, this is the only one they really see. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 09:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Portal namespace is "user-facing" and appropriate for a page that provides an overview of encyclopedic pages in article namespace. Naively, newcomers will expect to find our main page in portal namespace, since the main page isn't an encyclopedic article! ([[User:Sdsds|sdsds]] - ''[[User talk:Sdsds|talk]]'') 22:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Is there anything else that we need to consider about moving the main page to [[Portal:Wikipedia]]?  Will it effect Google page rankings?  What templates will need to be changed?  Are there any bots that will be effected?  -- [[WP:CI|&#x2611; ]]<b>[[User:Sam|Sam]]</b><font color="#CCCCFF">uelWantman</font> 23:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' move. This has been debated so many times, and it always seems more like a solution in search of a problem than an actual solution to an actual problem. I even see people arguing above that it's OK to move the Main Page, because we'll leave a permanent redirect and everything will be fine...why move the page at all if a permanent redirect will be left in its place? Call it historical inertia, or whatever you like, but I don't see any real benefit to moving the Main Page. The mainspace is for readers, as is the Main Page; it may not be an article, but its current location works well. I find Mr.Z-man's comments throughout the above sections persuasive, as the supposed benefits of moving the page aren't particularly overwhelming. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 19:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This is definitely looking like we're trying to fix something that isn't broken. It's worked fine for years, hasn't caused any problems, and moving the Main page been discussed numerous times before. [[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 22:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
**The more complete list of benefits is kind of scattered throughout the above discussion. For reference, implementing this proposal would do the following:
***The top-left tab would read "portal" instead of "article".
***People who want to make copies of Wikipedia, such as people who provide computers to schools in Africa that can't get Internet access, would have an easier time separating actual articles from project content which they don't want to copy. Because the content of the main page changes dynamically from day to day, it would take quite a bit of work to make the main page work and keep working on an offline copy of Wikipedia. Thus, since the main page won't actually work by default, it's probably best to exclude it from copies of Wikipedia article content by default.
***The "cite this page" link in the sidebar would be hidden from screen readers and text-only browsers, and the [[MediaWiki:Monobook.css|sitewide CSS]] would no longer have to contain a special declaration to hide it.
***The article count shown at [[Special:Statistics]] would be accurate instead of being 1 higher than the actual number of articles on Wikipedia. <code><nowiki>{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}</nowiki></code> would also be accurate instead of being off by one.
***Statistics about Wikipedia articles would be more accurate and not slightly skewed by statistics about the main page that are likely to get mixed in.
***It would be generally easier to write bots and other automated scripts because developers would not have to worry about having to write special code for the main page, ever.
**I hope this helps clarify things a bit, if nothing else. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 04:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
::That's incredibly weak reasoning. The article count is off by one? It says article at the top of the page? A "cite this page" link exists? I really don't think its much trouble to exclude a single page (the Main page) from off-line versions, so I'm not exactly worried about those schools in Africa receiving copies of Wikipedia with a static Main Page. Seriously. None of these so called "benefits" are the least bit convincing. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 04:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:::It boils down to it simply making it easier all-around to deal with the main page from a technical standpoint. What reasons are there to not switch, since most users won't notice anyway? True, [[Main Page]] will have to stay a redirect for the forseeable future, but in time the redirect will be used less and less until it is only rarely used and can be deleted. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 05:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

:::I agree that some of those rationales are weak, but the proposal itself is quite strong.  The simple fact that we currently greet readers with a page located at the '''wrong title''' (because it doesn't comply with our naming conventions) in the '''wrong namespace''' is reason enough for change.  (This can only mislead users, thereby hindering navigation and increasing the likelihood of pages being created with incorrect titles and in an incorrect namespace.)  That we have the opportunity to expose many more readers to our portals is another tremendous benefit.
:::The only argument ''against'' the proposed move seems that the current setup isn't so bad.  But the mere fact that it's tenable doesn't justify not making an improvement (however modest).  It's clear that it would cause no harm, so what's the problem?  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 20:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

::::No, another argument is that having our "front page" named "Portal:Wikipedia" would be more confusing to the public than having it named "Main Page".  Using a special hard-coded title would counter this problem, at least to my satisfaction, though it's not yet clear if the devs would be willing to do this.  (I remain unconvinced that the javascript-based approach will be adequate.)--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 00:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::Google's cache updated and you're right, Google doesn't process the JavaScript. I've removed the JavaScript and filed [[bugzilla:15007|bug 15007]]; hopefully the developers will give us a better way to do this. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 02:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::[http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki?view=rev&revision=38730 Feature has been implemented].  Woot.--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 02:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

:::::Has anyone other than you argued this, Father Goose?  I respect your opinion, buy you haven't addressed my counterargument that it's the current setup that conveys confusing information to the public (and the proposed setup actually would help readers to better understand Wikipedia).  —[[User:David Levy|David Levy]] 18:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

::::::OK, I've submitted a MediaWiki patch at [[bugzilla:15007]]. If implemented, this patch will enable us to customize the main page's &lt;title> text however we like. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 03:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

::While I don't think this is a reason ''not'' to rename, I do feel that whatever the Main Page is called, it should only be titled "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" as this is the basic entry-point. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 08:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
* '''Support.''' "'''[[Portal:Wikipedia|Portals]]''' are pages intended to serve as "Main Pages" for specific topics or areas. Portals may be associated with one or more WikiProjects; unlike WikiProjects, however, they are meant for both readers and editors of Wikipedia, and should promote content and encourage contribution." — Wikipedia 
:If [[Portal:Wikipedia]] doesn't make sense, then [[Wikipedia:Portal|Portal namespace]] doesn't make sense. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 14:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
* '''Support''' (I think I said this above somewhere as well); the Main Page being where it is at the moment causes lots and lots of little problems, and I can't think of much of a good reason not to move it to the right namespace. (For instance, I wonder how many people put pages in the wrong namespace because they don't understand how namespacing works? Putting the Main Page in the right place would set a good example.) --[[User:ais523|ais523]] 17:19, 4 August 2008 ([[User:ais523|U]][[User talk:ais523|T]][[Special:Contributions/Ais523|C]])
*'''Oppose''' all these proposals. This is just searching for a problem where there isn't one. How anyway is the current location of the Main Page unintuitive to newcomers? [[User:Deamon138|Deamon138]] ([[User talk:Deamon138|talk]]) 20:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' The current location does not help newcomers learn about the different namespaces.  The article namespace, which is what [[Main Page]] is in, is for ''articles'', which [[Main Page]] is not.  Also, several issues have already been brought up that would be fixed by this change.  -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 19:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' The spirit of [[Wikipedia:Avoid self references]] should be reason enough to move the Main Page out of article space. Moreover, it'll help open up awareness of the greater community to casual readers. Myself personally, I wasn't even aware of all this until I clicked on a TfD link one day. --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 02:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' this offers no benefits and as it stands, there are no cons to having the main page where it is. The proposal to move the page and have [[Main Page]] redirect to Wikipedia:Main_Page is just as non-conformist as having the main page in the article space, given that cross-namespace redirects are a criteria for deletion. <span style="font-size:80%;font-family:tahoma;">'''~ Ame<span style="font-family:arial;">I</span>iorate''' <sub>[[User:AmeIiorate|U]] [[User_talk:AmeIiorate|T]] [[Special:Contributions/AmeIiorate|C]]</sub> '''@'''</span> 09:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Several benefits have already been pointed out and discussed.  There are also no reasons for not doing this other than the fact that this is how things are right now (which I do not think is a valid reason).  As for redirecting [[Main Page]] to [[Portal:Wikipedia]] (the current proposal for the move target), this will only happen several months after the page has been moved and a bot has fixed all the current links to [[Main Page]] (until then [[Portal:Wikipedia]] will be transcluded onto [[Main Page]]).  There really aren't any reasons to ''not'' do this, and several reasons ''to'' do it. -- [[User:Imperator3733|Imperator3733]] ([[User talk:Imperator3733|talk]]) 19:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' the gradual move to [[Portal:Wikipedia]], per many of the reasons above.  I agree that there's not overwhelming evidence to support this, but there's no reason for us to annoy bot writers (I can also see a bot writer forgetting about this and causing some issues...though this would probably only happen if the bot was run without approval), give humanitarian workers another thing to keep on their minds, and falsify stat counters (I'm sure the average number of edits to articles is slightly higher than it should be because of the main page, for example) by refusing to move the main page to a more isolated namespace.  People seem to understand that this has to be very gradual&mdash;I doubt the redirect from [[Main Page]] would ever be removed unless something notable called "Main Page" sprung up&mdash;which is good.  I'm sure the majority of users would not even notice the change, since "Portal:Wikipedia" would not even prominently be displayed on the page.  Ideally, the developers would be willing to modify the <nowiki><title></nowiki> tag for us to read "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" as mentioned before, and the page ranking on Google would not be affected.  If nothing else, it would end this perennial proposal. :)  &mdash;[[User:Pie4all88|Pie4all88]] ([[User talk:Pie4all88|talk]]) 22:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - I believe the main page should be moved to [[Portal:Wikipedia]], or if not that then at least somewhere out of the article namespace - simply because the main page is not an encyclopedia article.--'''[[User:HisSpaceResearch|h i s]]'''   <sup>''[[User talk:HisSpaceResearch|s p a c e]]''</sup>   <sub>'''[[Special:Contributions/HisSpaceResearch|r e s e a r c h]]'''</sub> 17:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
:*Actually, considering it now, I like [[Portal:Main]] better than [[Portal:Wikipedia]], because the latter suggests that the portal is full of information about Wikipedia itself, when it's actually full of information about Wikipedia's articles. Either way, though, those are better than leaving the main page in the article namespace, because it is not and will never be an article. I disagree with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" idea - Wikipedia has always been about perfecting and improving itself, and the community tends not to settle for second best in most circumstances.-'''[[User:HisSpaceResearch|h i s]]'''   <sup>''[[User talk:HisSpaceResearch|s p a c e]]''</sup>   <sub>'''[[Special:Contributions/HisSpaceResearch|r e s e a r c h]]'''</sub> 17:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''- Historical inertia rules. :) Have read the discussion and still see no benefit for this move. Only more work and an uglier (longer) url for the main page. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 10:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:*A URL that is 3 characters longer? That makes it ugly? --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 22:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

===Why not simply to [[Portal:Main]]===
It will keep with the existing naming convention for portals&mdash;compare with [[Portal:Contents]]. [[User:Ruslik0|Ruslik]] ([[User talk:Ruslik0|talk]]) 12:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:Y'know, that makes even more sense than Portal:Wikipedia.  Okay, start the poll over again!--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 07:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::[[Portal:Main]] seems inorganic and unintuitive, compared even to [[Portal:Main Page]]. I'd almost rather have it at [[Index.html]]. I do not believe that there is a Portal naming convention guideline (?), but even so I doubt a portal ''about'' Wikipedia would ever exist as that would go against the desire to not be self-referential. ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 08:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:[[Portal:Main]] should be a portal about the [[Main]], a river in Germany. [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 09:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::There isn't a single Portal on Wikipedia about a river. [[User:Neil|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#963"><B>Neıl</B></u>]] [[User_talk:Neil|<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#936"><big><big><span class="Unicode">☄</span></big></big></u>]] 10:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::Yet! ~ '''[[User:JohnnyMrNinja|<font color="#206080">JohnnyMrNinja</font>]]''' 10:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::That is a good point. And why keep the word "main" in the title, except for nostalgia sake? --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 22:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
:::::Without the "Main" in "Portal:Main", it would be "Portal:". The colon there is silly and random. So then it would be "Portal". But that would just be in article space, which defeats the whole point of moving the Main Page out of article space. [[User:Deamon138|Deamon138]] ([[User talk:Deamon138|talk]]) 23:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::::::That's not what I meant, tho it's probably how it sounds. I meant that if we are going move to a portal, why would we need to characterize it as the "main" place to be, when there are clearly many other ways to approach the encyclopedia? Wikipedia is big enough and has enough quality articles that now we need to improve the way we introduce readers into subjects, and portals are the way to do this. --[[User:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkgreen;">Nick</span>]][[User talk:NickPenguin|<span style="color:darkblue;">Penguin</span>]]<sub>([[Special:Contributions/NickPenguin|<span style="color:blue;">'''contribs'''</span>]])</sub> 23:24, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

My two cents: While [[Portal:Wikipedia]] might be stretching our naming conventions a bit, it is certainly not as much of a stretch as having the main page as an article. —[[User:Remember the dot|Remember the dot]] <sup>([[User talk:Remember the dot|talk]])</sup> 04:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

'''Support'' and will someone please hand  Father Goose a [[WP:TROUT]]? How the hell does it make more sense to have a main page as a general article, which violates all rules, guidelines, and common sense, than as a "Portal" to the rest of wikipedia? <font face=jokerman>[[User:Jordan Payne|<font color="Green"> PXK</font>]]  [[User talk:Straight Edge PXK|<font color="DarkBlue"><sup>T</sup> </font>]]</font face>[[Special:Contributions/Straight Edge PXK|<font color="DarkBlue">/<sub>C</sub></font>]] 01:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

:Um, I support moving it to the Portal namespace (especially now that the devs have implemented a customizable "main page" title).  (And in fact I was the first to suggest the Portal namespace.)  I'm still not sure whether I like "Portal:Wikipedia" or "Portal:Main" better, though.  But [[So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish|thanks for the trout]]!--[[User:Father Goose|Father Goose]] ([[User talk:Father Goose|talk]]) 05:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', trivial and unnecessary. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 10:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

=== Make it [[Special:Random]] or [[Special:BlankPage]]===
Why is the community maintaining this ever-changing page anyway? It's binding lots of editor and reader time without contributing anything to Wikipedia. The fact that no proper name for this page can be found emphasizes this. If the user would miss an important link usually found on the main page, that link should be added to the navigation. --[[Special:Contributions/91.96.47.52|91.96.47.52]] ([[User talk:91.96.47.52|talk]]) 19:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


;Archive?

Time to archive. It's 1/2 the page and creating loading errors for me. Should I move it to [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 43]] or [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Persistent proposals]] ? -- [[User:Quiddity|Quiddity]] 23:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
== Mass File Upload with Summary info ==

I still have not ventured into the bot realm so I don't know about writing something that would accomplish this, so bear with me, please.  I am hoping to port a travel orb template with images from another wiki; it consists of about 200 png images of country flags that have been photoshopped behind an orb face, sort of like a small round button.  Uploading these files will take a while by hand, and I wondered if there was a method by which they could be uploaded en masse with the summary text being standardized for them?  The filenames are the country names (not abbreviations), so the process could use the filename (minus .png extension) in the summary.  Any ideas will be appreciated.  Thanks! [[User:Tigey|<span style="background:#38391f;color:Gold">'''&nbsp;Tigey&nbsp;'''</span>]]<sup><span style="font-size:smaller; border:1px solid #000000; background:#FFB66C; color:#FFFFFF;"> [[User_Talk:Tigey|<span style="background:transparent;color:black">&nbsp;Talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span><span style="font-size:smaller; border:1px solid #000000; background:#767942; color:#FFFFFF;"> [[Special:Emailuser/Tigey|<span style="background:transparent;color:white">&nbsp;E-Mail&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sup> 19:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:See [[Commons:Commons:Tools#Upload media|the list of file upload tools]] at [[Wikimedia Commons]]. '''[[User:Graham87|Graham]]'''[[User talk:Graham87|<span style="color:green;">87</span>]] 16:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

:Ahh, My thanks! [[User:Tigey|<span style="background:#38391f;color:Gold">'''&nbsp;Tigey&nbsp;'''</span>]]<sup><span style="font-size:smaller; border:1px solid #000000; background:#FFB66C; color:#FFFFFF;"> [[User_Talk:Tigey|<span style="background:transparent;color:black">&nbsp;Talk&nbsp;</span>]]</span><span style="font-size:smaller; border:1px solid #000000; background:#767942; color:#FFFFFF;"> [[Special:Emailuser/Tigey|<span style="background:transparent;color:white">&nbsp;E-Mail&nbsp;</span>]]</span></sup> 21:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

== Link to [[Special:Newpages]] but a few pages in? ==

I have recently been on [[Special:Newpages]] a lot, partly to add [[WP:CSD|speedy delete]] templates where necessary, and partly do look for potential [[WP:DYK]] candidates. However, I always turn bot and patrolled edits off and have 500 results per page. On top of that, I like to browse [[Special:Newpages]] starting at page 2 or 3 so as to try to avoid speedily deleting pages that have just appeared and which might consequently still be under construction. However, when I copy the URL of such a page - for instance, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:NewPages&offset=20080801212507&limit=500&hidepatrolled=1&hidebots=1 - and paste it again after a while, I can see that it sticks to the same range of results rather than a particular page of results on [[Special:Newpages]]; i.e. the range of articles it shows is static and not dynamic, unlike the main [[Special:Newpages]] page itself.

My question, then, is this: is it possible to have a URL which takes you straight to page 2, say, or page 3 of [[Special:Newpages]] with the filters which I have indicated above applied, and which consequently shows the current second or third page of [[Special:Newpages]] and automatically updates itself? If so, please post that URL here!

Thanks in advance.

P.S.

I had originally posted this over at [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28assistance%29#Link_to_Special:Newpages_but_a_few_pages_in.3F|VPA]] but was advised to repost here given the lack of responses over there.

[[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 18:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not how offsets work.  Offsets are by timestamp, for efficiency reasons.  The offset in the URL you give is 20080801212507, i.e., 2008-08-01 21:25:07.  You can manually edit the offset to be half an hour ago (or whatever) if you like, maybe using a script.  Otherwise, you have to click. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 16:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

:I see - so there's no "&page=x" or anything that you can stick on the end of it? [[User:It Is Me Here|It Is Me Here]] ([[User talk:It Is Me Here|talk]]) 16:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
::No. —[[User:Simetrical|Simetrical]] ([[User talk:Simetrical|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Simetrical|contribs]]) 21:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
==References==
{{reflist|30em
}}