View source for Testwiki:Articles for deletion/2024 Chicago Bears–Detroit Lions Thanksgiving game

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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]).  No further edits should be made to this page.''
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The result was '''redirect'''‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to [[Bears–Lions rivalry]] without prejudice against a selective merge. While I see some P&G-based arguments for retention, most simply mention the game being "historic" or "bizzare", neither of which bestow notability per our guidelines. I agree that the title is not a likely search term, but see no arguments here against retaining the page's history for other purposes, including a partial merge with the proposed target or with other articles. Broad participation here makes it unlikely that consensus will change with another relisting. [[User:OwenX|Owen&times;]] [[User talk:OwenX|<big>&#9742;</big>]] 15:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
===[[:2024 Chicago Bears–Detroit Lions Thanksgiving game]]===
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I'm a die hard Lions fan and that's a big part of my editing, but this game isn't particular special or deserving of a standalone article. The only "remarkable" part about it was a mishap regarding taking a timeout at the end, which is a mishap that happens several times a season. Does not warrant a standalone article and should be deleted.

I obviously understand there was bad clock management, there's no doubt about that, but this is barely more than what routinely happens every single season several times. Games are always cost this way, by miscommunications. There's always going to be sensationalized reporting that happens immediately after a game, that's frankly expected. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 21:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">Note:  This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Sports|Sports]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Illinois|Illinois]],  and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Michigan|Michigan]]. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 21:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)</small> 
* '''Delete''' Not notable, calling this an "infamous NFL game" is absurd. [[User:EF5|<span style="color:#A188FC;">'''E'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:EF5|<span style="color:#A188FC;">'''F'''</span>]]</sub><sup>[[Special:Contributions/EF5|<span style="color:#A188FC;">'''5'''</span>]]</sup> 21:25, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
* Alternatively, I suppose this could be redirected to [[Bears–Lions rivalry]]. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I do not want this page to be deleted. I want it to stay. [[Special:Contributions/2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D]] ([[User talk:2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|talk]]) 22:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' Not a notable enough game. Definite recency bias in this articles creation. This is not one of those games that will be mentioned as an all-timer. The Hail Mary game versus the Commanders, sure, but not this. Maybe it deserves a special mention in the Bears' and Lions' season pages, but nothing more than that. [[User:Eg224|Eg224]] ([[User talk:Eg224|talk]]) 00:07, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::I would rather keep this page. [[Special:Contributions/2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D]] ([[User talk:2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|talk]]) 02:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
*<small class="delsort-notice">Note:  This discussion has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting|deletion sorting]] lists for the following topics: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Events|Events]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/American football|American football]]. '''[[User:Wcquidditch|<span style="color:red">WC</span>''<span style="color:#999933">Quidditch</span>'']]''' [[User talk:Wcquidditch|<span style="color:red">☎</span>]] [[Special:Contribs/Wcquidditch|<span style="color:#999933">✎</span>]] 01:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)</small>
*'''Delete''', with maybe some selective merging to [[Matt Eberflus#Chicago Bears]]. Clearly a case of recentism. [[User:Esolo5002|Esolo5002]] ([[User talk:Esolo5002|talk]]) 02:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''': Historic in numerous ways, leading to the firing of a Bears coach midseason for the first time, getting the Lions to their best start in franchise history, as well as one of the most baffling endings to a game ever, even after a comeback by the Bears. I don't think that recency is the only reason why this was created. [[User:Aardwolf68|Aardwolf68]] ([[User talk:Aardwolf68|talk]]) 07:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

::* {{tq|leading to the firing of a Bears coach midseason for the first time}} – It's certainly not the only reason for the firing, but it is an obvious contributing factor. Let's not act like this  was the only reason it was.
::* {{tq|Getting the Lions to their best start in franchise history}} – This took a number of games to accomplish, this game is not special in that regard, and, simply based on team strengths of schedules and records, this game was not expected to go any other way than a Lions win by most pundits.
::* {{tq|...as well as one of the most baffling endings to a game ever...}} — That's certainly subjective. I'd counter by saying it's not even top 10 for the wild and wacky things that have happened to the Lions.
::* {{tq|I don't think that recency is the only reason why this was created.}} – The game will only ever really be mentioned in the context of Matt Eberflus, it'd be fairly unexpected to have long term coverage.
::To be honest, the rational provided feels more like [[WP:ILIKEIT]] than anything. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 13:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

*'''Keep''': While clock management situations, and disastrous ones at that, are common place in the NFL, theres none quite like this one. 26 seconds to get a play off or call a timeout and they do neither until theres 5 seconds left, in which that is the final play of the game. Add on to that the first mid-season head coach firing in the 105 year history of the Bears and the best start in the Detroit Lions 95 year history makes for a pretty historic game. The Butt Fumble was notoriously memed and ridiculed into oblivion so much that the Wikipedia page for said play still exists, so if you take down this game, the butt fumble would deserve to be taken off this site as well. Not to mention the fact that Chicago also faced off in 2 brutal games against divison rivals Green Bay and Minnesota previous to this game, so the Bears were already known for stuff like this, but this was just absolutely mind boggling and set a precedent on how low it could go. The game was also broadcast on CBS to a nationally televised audience, with all time quotes from Nantz and Romo.  With all that being said, theres no way that this play would soon be forgot like other mismanaged clock situations and i believe that this page should be kept [[User:IBeFlyin|IBeFlyin]] ([[User talk:IBeFlyin|talk]]) 09:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::It was deemed a miscommunication by both the QB and the coach for what it's worth, and those are fairly common, especially by inexperienced coaches and rookie quarterbacks. I don't think the standing of Detroit as a team is particularly relevant, or who Chicago played directly before the game. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 13:24, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::If this game gets memed and ridiculed over time the way the butt fumble has, then there would be a good case for creating a page about this game at that time.  But for now that is [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 15:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' or redirect to [[Bears–Lions rivalry]], where a special mention as a notable game can be included. As the nomination noted, there is nothing especially unique about this game. [[2024 Chicago Bears season]] is a much better place to discuss the impact of various games over the season, while [[Bears–Lions rivalry]] is a good place to speak directly to this game and what happened. [[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]] arguments related to the [[Butt Fumble]] don't hold water, for obvious reasons, but also because, as the nominator noted, poor clock management and miscommunication happens all the time in the NFL. The Butt Fumble was a singularly unique play with few, if any, appropriate comparisons. Although [[WP:RECENT]] makes this difficult to judge right now, it is important to put this game in the context of what is being claimed that makes it notable. Eberflus was historically a bad coach who was likely getting fired at the end of the season either way. Although bad, this game was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the only reason for his firing. The fact that the Bears haven't fired a coach mid-season is more of a flukely TV factoid that doesn't really mean much is the grand scheme of things. And lastly, in the grand scheme of crazy endings, this was definitely absurd clock management, but otherwise was a fairly routine end to the game.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 14:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' and '''do not redirect'''.  Non-notable regular season game.  Teams miscommunicate and run out of time at the end of games multiple times a season.  Likewise, midseason coaching changes are common.  I doubt "2024 Chicago Bears–Detroit Lions Thanksgiving game" or anything similar would be a reasonable search term so a [[WP:COSTLY]] redirect serves no purpose.  Some content can be moved to Eberflus' article or the Bears' current season article. <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #FF8200;">Frank</span>]] [[User talk:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #58595B;">Anchor</span>]]'''</span> 14:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::Adding that there has been no [[WP:LASTING]] coverage of this game in the 13 days since it was played (as of 11 December). <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #FF8200;">Frank</span>]] [[User talk:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #58595B;">Anchor</span>]]'''</span> 13:39, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Honestly the most damning part of all of this {{U|Frank Anchor}} is that we are 2 weeks out and no one is talking about this game anymore.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 14:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This game had a [https://defector.com/matt-eberflus-made-bears-history-in-the-bad-way historic] outcome and while it’s likely Eberfleus is fired anyway, it’s not in a historical way. It was being reported as far as [https://www.lmtonline.com/sports/article/poor-clock-management-on-final-drive-costly-for-19948351.php Laredo] and [https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/poor-clock-management-on-final-drive-costly-for-19948351.php San Francisco]. Coaching malpractice has earned articles before- look at [[2023 Georgia Tech vs. Miami football game]]. It was called [https://www.enforcethesport.com/blog/the-worst-clock-management-in-history “the worst clock management in history”] by some. Absolutely historic.--[[Special:Contributions/38.122.245.52|38.122.245.52]] ([[User talk:38.122.245.52|talk]]) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*:And if we merge it to either [[Matt Eberflus]] or [[Bears-Lions rivalry]] or [[2024 Chicago Bears season]] meaningful information would need to be cut out due to size concerns. Not to mention the Eberflus article is protected until late December. [[Special:Contributions/38.122.245.52|38.122.245.52]] ([[User talk:38.122.245.52|talk]]) 00:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*:The Miami game is also nominated for deletion not a very strong example for keeping this article. [[User:The Juice14|The Juice14]] ([[User talk:The Juice14|talk]]) 22:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' It’s both a historic game for the Lions (being their first Thanksgiving win in 7 years), but also a historic game for the Bears as well (for obvious reasons) and given how coaching mishaps of this magnitude are so rare, along with how widely talked about this game (and the near-unanimous calls for the firing of Eberflus after said game) about the game is, I don’t see how you can delete it at this point, though I do understand the arguments for deletion. :[[User:KDoppenheimer|KDoppenheimer]] ([[User talk:KDoppenheimer|talk]]) 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This was a historic game for both teams. For the Lions, this gave them their best ever start to a season, not to mention their first Thanksgiving win in 7 years. As for the Bears, this caused Matt Eberflus to become the first Head Coach in Bears History to be fired mid season. I see no reason we should delete this. [[User:Carson004|Carson004]] ([[User talk:Carson004|talk]]) 01:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Not to mention I do not see anywhere in that article that would meet deletion criteria for any WP essays, like [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#G12. Unambiguous copyright infringement|WP:G12]] for example. This never broke any copyright rules [[User:Carson004|Carson004]] ([[User talk:Carson004|talk]]) 02:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::It took more than this game for the Lions to have a "historic" start and it took more than one game to get Eberflus fired. Your argument doesn't really hold water. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 13:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Technically it is still historic, so '''YOUR''' argument cannot hold air [[User:Carson004|Carson004]] ([[User talk:Carson004|talk]]) 23:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': I agree that if this WERE to become noteworthy and talked about like the Buttfumble in the future, then this article can be recreated and should stand. As it stands, however, this definitely feels completely reactionary. Definitely can be mentioned on the Eberflus page, but that's as far as it goes imo.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/64.189.135.55|64.189.135.55]] ([[User talk:64.189.135.55#top|talk]]) 03:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Keep''' I want this page to stay since this game was historic. [[Special:Contributions/2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D]] ([[User talk:2601:40A:8400:1820:5D10:B5A6:B02:CF3D|talk]]) 11:06, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Maybe over time this game will get memed like the butt fumble due to the clock management at the end of the game, at which point an article about the game would be appropriate (and at such a time the game may have accumulated a more useful nickname than the title being used here).  But until then there is nothing special about it.  The notion that the game is historic because its Detroit's first Thanksgiving win in 7 years is not a remotely appropriate standard.  And the fact that the win gave Detroit its best start ever is not a reason for keeping either.  Lots of games have given a team their best start in franchise history, and we don't have articles on them and there would be no reason to.  I went to Miami for an example since that one is probably the easiest, given that they had a perfect season in their 7th year as a franchise.  In 1966 they won for the first time in their 6th game, so that made for their best start ever.  As the franchise's first win, that may well be notable, separate from their best start.  They then won 2 more games that season so each of those wins marked the Dolphins' best start too.  Then in 1967, they won their opening game, so obviously that represented their best start.  Wins in weeks 9 and 10 also gave them their best start ever, so in 1967 the Dolphins had 3 wins that represented their best start ever.  Then in 1968, in week 5 they earned a tie putting them at 1-5-1, which was their best start ever.  Their remaining 4 wins that season also produced their best start ever, so in 1968 the Dolphins played 5 games that produced their best start ever.  In 1969 they never had their best start ever.  But that changed in 1970.  Their win in week 3 put them at 2-1 for the season, their best start ever, and each of their remaining 8 wins for that season represented their best start ever.  So they had 9 games in 1970 that represented their best start ever.  In 1971 their win in week 2 put them at 1-0-1, their best start ever, and 7 of their remaining wins represented their best start ever, so they had 8 games that produced their best start ever.  Then we get to 1972.  They of course started 2-0, which was then their best start ever and each of their remaining 12 wins also represented their best start ever.  So 13 games in 1972 produced their best start ever (now some of those games that represented the best start ever for any NFL team and especially the final game that clinched a perfect regular season may well have a claim to notability).  So after their initial season, the Dolphins had 38 games where a win or tie produced their best start ever, and no one cares about or remembers most of them. And that's pretty easy one to go through since they won't have another best start ever until they start 15-0. Other teams probably have more than 38 games representing their best start ever, but even at 38, we hardly need <math display="inline">32 \times 38 = 1216</math> articles about games that almost no one cares about or remembers just because they happen to represent a teams best start ever. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 16:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*:[[WP:WALLOFTEXT]] [[Special:Contributions/38.122.245.52|38.122.245.52]] ([[User talk:38.122.245.52|talk]]) 20:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*::More like a well thought out and explained vote that addresses the silly and non-policy based [[WP:ILIKEIT]] keep votes. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Keep''': Perhaps a bit of a weak one. But there is evidence of [[WP:IMPACT]], whether or not Eberflus was an awful coach, a 105-year first and historic season for the Lions is something. Plus sometimes the wider impact is not felt until end-of-season recaps (yes, yes, [[WP:CRYSTAL]] and all), but this is just borderline enough in terms of wider significance for me. See the AFD for [[Hail Murray]] for a similar article that editors were in a rush to delete and wound up being kept. This was nominated a day or two after its creation, seems like a bit of a rush to me. [[User:Etzedek24|Etzedek24]] <sup><small>([[User talk:Etzedek24|I'll talk at ya]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Etzedek24|Check my track record]])</small></sup> 19:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC) <!--VCB Etzedek24-->
*:@[[User:Etzedek24|Etzedek24]]: Why are you putting so much weight regarding a "historic season for the Lions" on just this one game? There were 10 other wins besides this one. If anything that sounds like information that doesn't belong in its own article. If the Lions win again next week, does that mean that should also be its own article? [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 02:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*::All things considered together satisfy WP:IMPACT for me. I don't particularly think one is more important than the other, it's the confluence of them that takes this over the threshold for me. I even did say that I think it is a weaker keep. No need to be hyperbolic. [[User:Etzedek24|Etzedek24]] <sup><small>([[User talk:Etzedek24|I'll talk at ya]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Etzedek24|Check my track record]])</small></sup> 04:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::Not trying to be hyperbolic @[[User:Etzedek24|Etzedek24]], I'm focused on the fact that a number of people have mentioned the Lions' season as a reason for keeping, when from my perspective, it's entirely irrelevant. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 13:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*:The game was impactful, but only really to the franchises themselves, not to the broader culture of the NFL, as all of the other games with dedicated pages are. Nothing particularly distinctive happened this game, it was memorable but poor clock management resulting in you getting less plays off than intended isn't exactly unique. Dak in the 2022 NFC Wildcard stands out in my memory; that game doesn't have it's own page, it is just described on the season pages and 2022 playoffs page. I feel like the Hail Murray is a particularly misguided equivalency because the play itself was notably distinctive; it was a highlight and a signature play with a unique name. It fits in with the other entries on [[:Category:National Football League games]], this one just does not, it stands out as the least significant unnamed event on the page. The game was primarily just impactful on the franchises. Thus, talk about the significance to the Lions' season on [[2024 Detroit Lions season|the Lions' season page]], the significance to the Bears' season on [[2024 Chicago Bears season|the Bears' season page]]. Talk about that on the [[Bears–Lions rivalry|Bears–Lions rivalry page]]. In my opinion, this game does not warrant it's own page. [[User:TheHaft|TheHaft]] ([[User talk:TheHaft|talk]]) 07:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Strongly Delete''' This article is completely useless and should be deleted as soon as possible. If this article stays, why don't we have articles about other NFL games in which teams set their records?! And also, this article literally makes no sense, because it has no historical significance, Detroit set its record not only because of this match, and the fact that Detroit lifted the curse of Thanksgiving is absolutely insignificant information. According to this logic, Wikipedia should have articles about Damar Hamlin's collapse in the 2022 Bills—Benglas game and Christian Eriksen's collapse in the 2020 UEFA Denmark—Finland match. Obviously, those articles would have been much more important, since it almost took the lives of two people. [[Special:Contributions/212.164.65.158|212.164.65.158]] ([[User talk:212.164.65.158|talk]]) 12:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''(<s>Delete, on hold</s> (see below the relist) pending below discussion, is this notable as the worse NFL clock management of all time?)''', have been watching the discussion and am surprised at it having so many keep comments. Hey man im josh is a Lions fan so there is no bias involved, just a commonsense appraisal of this page from a standpoint of notability. Probably a redirect to the fired coach and maybe a sentence or two mention on his page should be added to cover the topic but keeping the page would lower the bar for stand-alone pages for individual NFL games. The only NFL game I ever attended was the game in which Jim McMahon took over the Bears quarterback position. I missed the first quarter and the only touchdown of this Bears-New Orleans game, a game that George Halas said was the worse football game that he ever saw in his life. I consider it a notable game for Halas' comment alone, and McMahon's beginning his reign, which I knew was significant as I watched it happen, led to a couple of great years for the Bears and was icing on the cake. I haven't attended another NFL game because I saw the worse and that's enough for me. But Wikipedia probably wouldn't accept a page about it. The clock mistakes in this 2024 game are similar, and the bottom of the barrel is sometimes only notable to those who remember being there (for three-quarters). [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 15:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', This is one of the most significant games of the 2024 season. The history of it being the root cause of the Bears firing a head coach mid-season for the first time in nearly 80 years is notable in itself. [[User:Cramerwiki|Cramerwiki]] ([[User talk:Cramerwiki|talk]]) 15:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
::The cause of Eberflus being firing is more than just this game. It is due to his ineffective 14–32 record overall and 4–7 record this season.  In addition, the game immediately before other teams' first mid-season firing of a head coach do not have articles. <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #FF8200;">Frank</span>]] [[User talk:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #58595B;">Anchor</span>]]'''</span> 16:36, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Eberflus was directly fired as a result of the ending of the game. Had they won, sure, he'd be gone after the season anyways, but this is what directly led to it. This will be a significant piece of NFL History. [[User:Cramerwiki|Cramerwiki]] ([[User talk:Cramerwiki|talk]]) 16:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That's pure unsubstantiated speculation. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 17:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Frank Anchor|Frank Anchor]] You are correct.  If a coach getting fired in mid-season after a game makes the game notable then we need an article about [https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/202410060min.htm this game] (and many more), since Robert Saleh was fired after the game.  Maybe there is a scenario where clearly something in that game all by itself got the coach fired, and the game thus became notable - maybe they won the Super Bowl the prior year and in the first game of the season they did something so stupid that they got fired - but even then, discussion of the game and the stupid decision would belong in the coach's article, not a separate article for the game, unless the game itself gets persistent coverage.[[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 17:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Cramerwiki|Cramerwiki]] If the game actually does become "a significant piece of NFL History" then there will be ongoing coverage of the game to establish that, and at that time I don't think there would be much objection to recreating this article.  Until then that is merely [[WP:CRYSTAL]]. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 17:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Regardless of how "historic" a mid-season firing is, I see no reason why [[2024 Detroit Lions season]], [[2024 Chicago Bears season]], and [[Matt Eberflus]] can't adequately cover this. So much of the article is sheer fluff, from the background that duplicates what the season articles can cover, to the routine game summary before the failed final drive, to the wordiness and details of the aftermath and reactions. [[User:Reywas92|Reywas92]]<sup>[[User talk:Reywas92|Talk]]</sup> 17:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The clock management and the massive criticism make this game pass standalone GNG. Significant coverage and the consequences are monumental. [[User:DrewieStewie|DrewieStewie]] ([[User talk:DrewieStewie|talk]]) 19:11, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' There has been some [[WP:BLUDGEON]] behavior on this page, with nominator responding to every keep vote to try to discredit their opinion. Such behavior is disruptive to the discussion and should be taken into account whilst closing. [[Special:Contributions/134.204.117.34|134.204.117.34]] ([[User talk:134.204.117.34|talk]]) 00:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::I've replied to 4 of the 10 keeps, and to a reply someone made on a keep vote, that's certainly not replying to every keep vote as you've stated. 
::If you read the [[WP:BLUDGEON]] essay I believe it's clear that my behaviour does not fit said mold. Feel free to take me to [[WP:ANI]], but I do feel comfortable in stating I have not been bludgeoning the discussion and I resent said accusation, which in of itself, is an attempt to invalidate discussion. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 12:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::{{u|Hey man im josh}}, to bludgeon the accused bludgeoner as well as {{u|DrewieStewie}} who says the play is "monumental", a question. Is this being called the "worse time management in NFL history" in reliable sources? I know it was a time management misplay, but has bad use of the clock and time outs occurred on this scale before? Thanks. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 13:59, 7 December 2024 (UTC) 
::::I’ll check the sources after work since I’m about to clock back in, but as a quick clarification, I stated that the consequences of the play have shown to be monumental, in the positive for the lions and in the negative for the Bears/Eberflus. Clock management has never been this poor at the top level of gridiron football, and the criticism has been extensive and widespread, resulting in these consequences. [[User:DrewieStewie|DrewieStewie]] ([[User talk:DrewieStewie|talk]]) 15:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Thanks. What I'm looking for is not relevance to the teams or the coach, those are of minor notability and no reason to keep, but to possible worse NFL clock management of all time. [[That's not a knife, THAT's a knife|That would be a reason to keep]]. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 15:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]]: I'm not finding an individual incident discussed, in of itself, as being the worst of all time. I'm finding games discussed as such, particularly pointed towards YouTube, but I'm finding a difficulty in finding said coverage because, as I'm sure you know, recent stories typically end up popping up more prominently and there's always sensationalism after games to bait in the clicks. Strange because you would think there'd be lists of the worst individual clock management decisions. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 12:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::{{u|Hey man im josh}}, there have been mentions and comments about this being one of the worse, and yes, there should be a list or Hall of Shame somewhere. This RM has been wrongly contested on the basis of team and coach history, when it seems to me it should all hang all fall on the 'worse time management' notability (where it is probably at least a contender). [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 13:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::@[[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]]: Oh I'm sure it's a contender,  but anecdotally speaking, I feel like we hear about this sort of thing all the time. Personally I think there have been worse mishaps than miscommunications and misunderstandings between a head coach and his rookie QB (after all, no reason Williams couldn't have called a time out). Never the less, I'll give it more of a shot again later, but a lot of the focus seemed to be on games as a whole, as opposed to an individual decision. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 13:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::[https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/matt-eberflus-defends-disastrous-clock-management NBC Sports] says it was one of the worst incidents of clock management of all time. [[Special:Contributions/38.122.245.52|38.122.245.52]] ([[User talk:38.122.245.52|talk]]) 23:56, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Your NBCsports find adds the notability to this being possibly the worse clock management in history (and yes, Williams could have called a time out but didn't, a major part of the topic). With this source I'll probably change to 'keep' below. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 02:33, 10 December 2024 (UTC) 
* '''Contested''' (pending discussions, previously '''Delete'''): While I do understand that this can be labeled "historic", I'm pretty sure that this is more of [[WP:RECENTISM]] than actually making it historic. However, the context that has seriously built up on this article made it pretty solid and put on some valid contention whether it stands to keep or not. (Plus it can be considered a significance among the rivalry as well) <s>Regardless though, I think that a game that has the significance of an example of having bad clock management, which the coach then getting fired the day after, is not enough to warrant a standalone creation. (''Plus most of the context that happened in the final drive would most likely won't be talked about in much detail or mostly remembered other than the fact Detroit has the best start in franchise history and finally won a Thanksgiving game in 7 years'')
:Unlike what I said, [[Madhouse in Maryland]] and [[Miracle in Miami]] are good examples of something that is significant to the point where it can be talked about in detail. (Since the context in the final drives would something that can be remembered and look back into)</s>
:If this does get deleted however, I do want to see some '''split merges''' of some information to both team's appropriate articles and their rivalry page.
:'''Edit:''' After looking back in this proposal with some of the recent replies here, I decided to just put this on the contested state under the grounds of some pending discussions above this reply. Due to this, I decided to temporarily invalidate some of my sayings here. [[User:Kirbix12|Kirbix12]] ([[User talk:Kirbix12|talk]]) 04:58, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:Doczilla|<span style="color:green;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">Doczilla</span>]] <sub>[[User talk:Doczilla|<small>''Ohhhhhh, no!''</small>]]</sub> 09:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --></p>
*'''Redirect''' to [[Bears-Lions rivalry]]. This article is strongly built on [[WP:RECENTISM]] with information people may forget within a few months. It certainly does not warrant a standalone article, and should be merged or redirected.--[[User:DesiMoore|DesiMoore]] ([[User talk:DesiMoore|talk]]) 16:08, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' it would help me if some of the keeps could provide links showing the long-term notability of this game. Just a cursory search on Google right now, and I don't see much more than blog posts and other fan pages popping up that are still discussing this game. It's possible that some season recaps will touch on this in a month, but even then I am not sure that meets the notability requirements. That said, I would have no prejudice if this article is deleted/merged that it could be recreated in a year or so if long term coverage continues.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 17:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' No sense in keeping this article due to [[WP:RECENTISM]]. Bad plays happen all the time and coaches get fired from them. As its own article, the [[WP:ILIKEIT]] votes do not explain the "historic" aspect of this game. Any kind of historic moment could just be covered in the rivalry article, season articles, and maybe even Eberflus's article. [[User:Conyo14|Conyo14]] ([[User talk:Conyo14|talk]]) 18:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per the notability of this possibly being the worse use of clock management in NFL history. An editor above brought [https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/matt-eberflus-defends-disastrous-clock-management this NBC Sports source]. The topic's notability comes from 'worse in history' and not what teams played or what streak was broken. The firing of the coach fits the topic as an aftermath (in an "Aftermath" section). [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 02:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*:{{U|Randy Kryn}}, the article you brought forward states {{tq|It was <u>one of</u> the worst examples of clock management in NFL history.}} (''emphasis mine''). Notwithstanding your misquote, the article is also written by Mike Florio as a commentary article, and surely states the author's opinion on the matter (note the colloquial nature of his writing, like "No, Matt. You didn’t. And everybody knows it."). I dont mind your opnion on the matter, but want to be clear that you are definitively misquoting the article and likely misrepresenting the source as justification.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 03:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*::Did you notice the word 'possibly'? 'One of the worse' means it's in a very small class, with the author also saying 'and that is no exaggeration'. The worse clock management in history is among that small class, and could very possibly be this one. There are no other "candidates" being mentioned or found in sources, this one may be unique, and the descriptor "possibly" is accurate. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 03:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::Your quote was {{tq|The topic's notability comes from 'worse in history'}}. Just pointing out the source you attribute this to does not say this, as somebody could be led to believe. Again though, this source is an opinion piece, written just a few hours after the game and does not purport to make any definitive claims. Mike Florio is an entertainer who is well known for making exaggerated or dramatic claims about football.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 04:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::I can see how you'd misinterpret my statement by reacting to just a portion of it, once again missing the word 'possibly'. I don't know Mike Florio's work, and you may be right, but I think NBC is seen as a reliable source, and their management made the decision to publish Florio's comments. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 04:12, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I am not disregarding your first sentence in your comment. It's just that you made a definitive statement that the notability of this article is inherent due to it being the worst of something ever. That said, that source was produced hours after the event, provides no historical context, is written as a blog post and is authored by someone well known for making reactionary [[hot takes]] in American football. This commentary here is primarily for the closer, to help them to understand the source in question and whether it establishes anything.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 15:01, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Speaking for Randy, I can confirm that he said {{tq|possibly}} prior to {{tq|being the worse use of clock management}}, therefore is not misquoting. It's only his opinion that the NBC Sports source, along with other sources, qualify the GNG standard for this article's longevity. No need to read too deep into it. He's at least done a more generous job at eeking out a reasonable !keep. [[User:Conyo14|Conyo14]] ([[User talk:Conyo14|talk]]) 16:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::I'm not saying otherwise. But Randy did say {{tq|The topic's notability comes from 'worse in history'}}, and I am pointing out that 'worse in history', as ''he stated earlier in his comment'', is not what the source says. It says "one of the worst" without listing any other examples.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;"><span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span> [[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007|<small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)</small>]] @ </span> 17:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::I'm pretty sure he is not quoting that either. He's just quoting what others are trying to say in this AfD. [[User:Conyo14|Conyo14]] ([[User talk:Conyo14|talk]]) 17:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' it's been two weeks and the game's already basically forgotten - it can be discussed elsewhere, including in the season pages for the teams and league, but I don't think it's notable enough for a stand-alone article. If additional coverage exists in the future it might be able to be restored, but that seems unlikely to me. [[User:SportingFlyer|SportingFlyer]] ''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:top;">[[User talk:SportingFlyer|T]]</span>''·''<span style="font-size:small; vertical-align:bottom;">[[Special:Contributions/SportingFlyer|C]]</span>'' 00:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', fails [[WP:NSPORTSEVENT]] at this time. [[User:Hatman31|Hatman31]] <small>(he/him · [[User talk:Hatman31|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Hatman31|contribs]])</small> 17:57, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. Got a coach fired, but that happens regularly in the NFL; and bad clock management always happens regularly.  [[User:Natg 19|Natg 19]] ([[User talk:Natg 19|talk]]) 20:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. Bad clock management, sure, but ultimately a very routine game. [[User:PCN02WPS|<span style="color:grey;">'''PCN02WPS'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:PCN02WPS|<span style="color:grey;">talk</span>]] &#124; [[Special:Contributions/PCN02WPS|<span style="color:grey;">contribs</span>]])</small> 21:56, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

*'''Comment ''' [https://www.centraltimes.org/showcase/2024/12/11/column-the-chicago-bears-are-not-in-fact-back/#google_vignette This source] gives some decent weight to the Bears Lions game and was published on December 11, thus is somewhat convincing [[WP:LASTING]] coverage. Also, I will note that several people are downplaying the extent of the poor clock management. This was historically bad, I don’t think we have a precedent. This game could be a critical turning point in Bears history, and those kinds of games do have articles (ex. [[Butt Fumble]] or [[Miracle at the Meadowlands]].) [[Special:Contributions/134.204.117.34|134.204.117.34]] ([[User talk:134.204.117.34|talk]]) 00:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
*:That source is a high school newspaper which absolutely does not give any weight towards [[WP:LASTING]]. Every game could be a critical turning point in any team's history, so speculating that it could be such and using it as a reason to keep seems kind of silly. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 01:50, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
*:: Why does everyone put the emphasis on the fact that it was HISTORICALLY poor clock management? Imagine that the team scored a touchdown and then on the extra point the kicker hit so badly that the ball went '''backwards''', not forwards. Does it really make sense to create an article about this situation as a historically bad extra point? [[Special:Contributions/212.164.65.158|212.164.65.158]] ([[User talk:212.164.65.158|talk]]) 12:23, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I mean, let’s be honest - the [[Butt Fumble]], [[Lunatic Lateral]] and the [[Miracle at the New Meadowlands]] were also historical plays that have articles, with the former two surviving AFDs, one of which from January 2024, so we have a consensus that historic plays are articles.  [[Special:Contributions/174.244.148.109|174.244.148.109]] ([[User talk:174.244.148.109|talk]]) 18:58, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::: Still in favour of delete: I doubt that Butt Fumble was really a historical play, it just gained popularity due to the Nationwide broadcast and stupidity of play; '''technically it was just a fumble and that's it'''. And I'm sure there's no consensus about historic plays: where's article about Justin Tucker record breaking field goal for the win in 2021? Or why there's no article about game in 2016 or 2017 that was won by BLOCKED Extra Poit that was returned for a 2 point defensive touchdown? A historical event absolutely does not mean that the game is automatically notable [[Special:Contributions/212.164.65.158|212.164.65.158]] ([[User talk:212.164.65.158|talk]]) 10:55, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::Personally I only think the Butt Fumble is actually notable of the 3, but that's just me. I think the Butt Fumble is notable based on how often it's STILL brought up and based on feels :P [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 11:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Delete''': While I see some reasons for keeping it, the deletes make the most sense to me with a compelling reason. I understand that things happened during that game, to me, it just feels like any other game. People have forgotten about the game already, and have moved on. <b>[[User:Yoshi24517|<span style="color:#00c700;font-family:'Rockwell'">Yoshi24517</span>]] ([[User talk:Yoshi24517|<span style="color:black;font-family:'Rockwell'">Chat</span>]]) (<span style="color:red;font-family:'Rockwell'">Very Busy</span>)</b> 00:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC) <!--VCB Yoshi24517-->
* '''Merge''' to [[Bears–Lions rivalry]] or [[NFL on Thanksgiving Day]]: The issue seems to be not a content or reliability issue, but a notability issue.  Given [[WP:ATD]], the best situation would be to merge the content to an article that is notable and overlaps in some way.  Both of these articles apply as it was a game involving the Bears and Lions rivalry and was an NFL game on Thanksgiving.  It would need significant trimming, but better to improve a related article than to tear it down entirely.  --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 08:28, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
::NFL on Thanksgiving Day is a terrible merge target.  The fact that this game occurred on Thanksgiving is entirely coincidental.  Either of the team seasons or Eberflus' page would be a more appropriate target to merge some of the content, though I still support delete per my above !vote. <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #FF8200;">Frank</span>]] [[User talk:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #58595B;">Anchor</span>]]'''</span> 13:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Keep''': the circumstances are so bizarre and the aftermath so notable that it warrants it being kept up as its own page. This is just as notable as the [[Madhouse in Maryland]] earlier this year.[[User:SteelersDiclonious|SteelersDiclonious]] ([[User talk:SteelersDiclonious|talk]]) 23:58, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
::[[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS|Pointing out other articles]] is not a valid argument.  Each must stand or fall on its own merits. <span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS;">'''[[User:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #FF8200;">Frank</span>]] [[User talk:Frank Anchor|<span style="color: #58595B;">Anchor</span>]]'''</span> 13:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
:::That's an essay. Opinions differ, and pointing out other articles seems a valid argument (which would be another essay carrying as much weight as that one). [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 14:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::::But pointing out another article that is probably deletion-worthy is not a particularly compelling argument. [[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 14:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''.  Covered widely in good outlets beyond the routine coverage of an average game, so I think it meets [[WP:GNG]].  While it is impossible to predict this, I think it is likely that the game will have historical significance and will continue to be referenced in the future, so I think it will meet [[WP:NEVENT]] when we reflect on this later. '''[[User:Malinaccier|<span style="color:#003153">Malinaccier</span>]] ([[User talk:Malinaccier|<span style="color:#003153">talk</span>]])''' 14:31, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
::Crystal, but when journalists or authors write of botched NFL clock management this game will likely be mentioned. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 14:38, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
{{clear}}
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's [[Help:Talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page.''<!--Template:Afd bottom--></div>