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== [[user:Xx236]] ==

{{Userlinks|Xx236}} most of his time spends on articles' talk pages disusing editors. Some old past characteristic edits (some of them are in  general amnesty time frame):
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piotrus&diff=prev&oldid=140722693 2007-06-26T11:45:07 NKVD rulez]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AYpatingasis_b%C5%ABrys&diff=109308496&oldid=109302228 2007-02-19T14:45:22  Lokyz, don't address your texts to me, even your thank you is offensive for me.]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Medininkai&curid=7298879&diff=180618767&oldid=180615414 2007-12-28T15:24:28 Hi Mr censor]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Armia_Krajowa&curid=66237&diff=194906965&oldid=194901233 2007-12-28T15:24:28 Thank you for you open bias. TV series Smersh is a must for you] etc.

In the past I tend to ignore this Polish contributor, but recently he crossed the limit:
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal_talk:Poland/Poland-related_Wikipedia_notice_board&curid=5703537&diff=220338444&oldid=220331246 2008-06-19T11:08:37 don't do your propaganda here]
*'''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lithuanian_minority_in_Poland&diff=prev&oldid=242709942 2008-10-03T09:29:33  Adolf Hitler would be proud of you.]'''
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lithuanian_minority_in_Poland&diff=prev&oldid=243376280 2008-10-06T06:55:13  racist texts], apparently addressing to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Lithuanian_minority_in_Poland&diff=prev&oldid=228691784 his comment]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2/Evidence&diff=prev&oldid=243851619 2008-10-08T09:34:31  Have someone nominated you to prosecute the Poles, or are you a self made ''D.A.''?]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus_2/Evidence&diff=next&oldid=243905430 2008-10-08T15:38:24  Your activities in Dariusz Ratajczak are close to vandalism.] referring to my edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADariusz_Ratajczak&diff=243888300&oldid=199563060] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dariusz_Ratajczak&diff=243888738&oldid=243846152].
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dariusz_Ratajczak&diff=prev&oldid=245194999  2008-10-14T10:32:36 You are vandalising this article.] referring to my edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADariusz_Ratajczak&diff=243888300&oldid=199563060] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dariusz_Ratajczak&diff=243888738&oldid=243846152] (+ I am the principal contributor on this article)

This contributor is long enough on Wikipedia to familiarize himself not only with [[WP:NPA|ethical way]] of conduct, but also that such behavior is straightforward battleground creation. Despite my pleas to modify his behavior, he didn't. Therefore I ask, that uninvolved editors to take apropriate steps. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] ([[User talk:M.K|talk]]) 14:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The article [[Dariusz Ratajczak]] should be removed, because the person isn't notable. If preserved - the  article shouldn't be used instrumentally by M.K. as one of his several anti-Polish battlegrounds. Dariusz Ratajczak is a living person, the article is biographical.   [[User:Xx236|Xx236]] ([[User talk:Xx236|talk]]) 15:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:Oh dear. Just because you don't think he's notable, doesn't give you the right to breach the civility policy. Cut it out. Discuss the article, not the people editing it. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 16:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Even here I am accused of being "anti-Polish". Straightforward another personal attack. [[User:M.K|M.K.]] ([[User talk:M.K|talk]]) 17:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Folks, don't turn this into an arguing den. It's not a den of any sort, it's AN/I. M.K, no personal attacks have been made on this page yet. If we see one being made here, we'll take action. Equally, if anyone starts using this page to argue, we'll take action. A complaint has been made, let's see if people chip in with solutions, and keep the mudslinging off here.. [[User:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry]] ([[User talk:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|talk]]) 17:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: I am pleased to hear this, now lets see if it actually works. Cheers, [[User:M.K|M.K.]] ([[User talk:M.K|talk]]) 17:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

== I am a "Move Nazi", and canvassing ==

Closing this, the good Doctor and I have sorted out our differences directly between our talk pages and will be dropping a proposal on the NC pages later together. :) [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 16:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
* For those curious to follow it through, discussion has moved to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(settlements)#Proposed_fixing_of_the_convention_for_US_cities here]. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 16:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

{{archive top}}
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities&oldid=245076245#The_move_debate_continues_... Can someone please leave a note] with {{user|Derek.cashman}}? He's [[WP:CANVASSING|canvassing]] for a requested move he very much wants to go through at [[Talk:Seattle#Requested move (October 2008)]], and called people "article move nazis". [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 14:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:Is that worse than being a "soup Nazi"? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 14:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::If it's not said in jest, [[WP:CIV|then yes]]. I don't think it was said in jest. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, dear Christ! Stop taking things so literally! "No Move For You!" [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'll be happy to, once I'm assured canvassing stops. :) [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::There is no canvassing, dude. Except maybe in your imagination. [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Sheesh, quit the name calling, please. Seriously, read [[Godwin's law]]; your arguments here are reflecting very dimly on you. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; 
background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 15:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Notifying Wikiprojects like you did about a "bad move close" in non-neutral language is canvassing. Please stop. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Not to mention, opening multiple threads about the same thing in multiple forums is forum shopping. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 15:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I didn't think of that, but you're right. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

What I was seeing about Seattle is that somebody switched it from Seattle, Washington, to just plain Seattle, and then someone had to go find every reference to the one and switch it to the other. '''This is "busy-work" with no value whatsoever.''' [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 15:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:Your context is off a bit. It wasn't just "moved by someone". It was a long, long discussion that was an admin closure for a Requested Move. And no, that's not busy work--the AP style guide AND our naming conventions say that [[Seattle]] is the valid name. Its fixing bad and unneeded piped disamgbiguation pages which is a helpful edit. Super-critical? Hardly, but hardly without value. It's housekeeping. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Who's doing wrong here now? I see now that [[User:Shereth|Shereth]] has prematurely closed the New Orleans discussion and moved the article to [[New Orleans]], despite lack of consensus. So now I am being steam-rollered through. This is unacceptable behavior, people. I thought Wikipedia was a democracy. [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't know where you got that idea, Wikipedia is very specifically [[WP:NOTDEMOCRACY|not a democracy]]. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 15:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:What does the naming convention say about [[New Orleans]]? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::No, Wikipedia isn't a democracy. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 15:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I was just going to say [[WP:NOTDEMOCRACY|this]]. [[User:Wildthing61476|Wildthing61476]] ([[User talk:Wildthing61476|talk]]) 15:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::You're right. I forgot. It's run by the Cabal. [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, it's run by precedent and guidelines and policies. The naming conventions say that [[Seattle]] and [[New Orleans]] are right. I see you decided to unilaterally supercede an admin close and consensus [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Orleans#Requested_move close here too]. :( [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Just because the consensus didn't go your way doesn't mean it does not exist - unless your definition of "consensus" is "unanimity". [[User:Shereth|<b style="color:#0000FF;">Sher</b>]][[User_talk:Shereth|<b style="color:#6060BF;">eth</b>]] 15:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Consensus never has to please everyone, that would be backwards. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::"Consensus" should be a majority vote; for particularly heated discussions like this one, of which the city article naming thing has been going on for like, forever, I would expect a supermajority (instead of 50% + 1, more like 75%). And I didn't see a supermajority. [[User:Derek.cashman|Dr. Cash]] ([[User talk:Derek.cashman|talk]]) 15:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The more important question is since the naming convention says [[Seattle]] and [[New Orleans]] are the valid and acceptable names, why is it even being debated? They should be where they are and change the naming convention if we don't want it based on the AP style guides and want a special internal structure we made up one day. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 15:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::12 supports, and 4 opposes. But then again, we aren't doing it by a vote count. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 15:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It's busy-work. No matter how much time and energy you all put into it, it's still just busy-work, fighting over pedantry with no discernible gain. It's useless. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 15:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== User:24.213.23.194 ==

{{resolved|IP blocked}}
This IP is doing nothing but vandalism. The IP has a long history of it and in the last few days have recieved many warnings (including today) but contiues to vandalize (their current main target is [[WWE Friday Night SmackDown]], but he/she has hit other pages too). '''<span style="border: 2px Maroon solid;background:#4682B4;font-family: Monotype Corsiva">[[User:TJ Spyke|<span style="color:Maroon;">TJ</span>]] [[User talk:TJ Spyke|<span style="color:Maroon;">Spyke</span>]]</span>''' 16:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:Vandals are reported to [[WP:AIV]]. Surely you knew that? -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 16:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::Besides, it's been blocked for 6 months. This is now resolved. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 16:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
== There's something screwy on the software infoboxes ==

{{resolved|<sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 19:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Or more specifically the dates parts of it. For example [[Windows 98]];
:Current version:  	4.10.1998 ("Gold"), 4.10.2222A ("SE"), 1998-Template:MÁNUÐUR-18; 3862 days ago ("Gold"), 1999-Template:MÁNUÐUR-05; 3449 days ago ("SE") info
As you can see there appears to be some attempt to add a template that doesn't actually exist. If you look at [[.NET Reflector]]
:Latest release 	5.1.3 / 2008-Template:MÁNUÐUR-18; 25 days ago
So that's two different info boxes, but both software related both of which have date weirdness. There appears to be a bunch of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:M%C3%81NU%C3%90UR transclusions] to this non-existent template, but I cannot for the life of me workout where it's being included from. --[[User:Blowdart|Blowdart]] | [[User talk:Blowdart|''<sup>talk</sup>'']] 16:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:It was all caused by an edit to {{tl|Release date and age}} where the word "month" was replaced with "MÁNUÐUR", which is Icelandic for the word "month".  Anyway, that template was fixed, and it the problem has been corrected - you might have to purge your cache to get it to display correctly again. [[User:Shereth|<b style="color:#0000FF;">Sher</b>]][[User_talk:Shereth|<b style="color:#6060BF;">eth</b>]] 17:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
::Ta muchly. --[[User:Blowdart|Blowdart]] | [[User talk:Blowdart|''<sup>talk</sup>'']] 18:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

== Corrupt template causing h-card info to be displayed on articles ==

{{resolved|Fixed...<sub>[[User:Gb|Gb]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Gb|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Gb|c]]</sup> 19:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)}}
A change to the template: [[Template:Infobox SSSI]] is causing information about the h-card syntax to be displayed on hundreds of articles where the template is used. Examples at [[Aust Cliff]], [[Banwell Caves]], [[Goblin Combe]] etc. Note left on [[Template talk:Infobox SSSI]] I don't know enough about template syntax to solve this problem. Any help appreciated.&mdash; [[User:Rodw|Rod]] <sup>[[User talk:Rodw|talk]]</sup> 10:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:Fixed, I think. --[[User:Roger Davies|<font color="maroon">'''R<small>OGER</small>&nbsp;D<small>AVIES</small>'''</font>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 10:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks for rapid response - I don't know why the move you did worked, but it seems to have fixed it.&mdash; [[User:Rodw|Rod]] <sup>[[User talk:Rodw|talk]]</sup> 10:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::When the text was moved ''outside'' the <nowiki><noinclude> and </noinclude></nowiki> tags it was ''included'' in the article :) Moving it back within the tags stopped it. It's explained [[Help:Template#Noinclude, includeonly, and onlyinclude|'''here''']]. --[[User:Roger Davies|<font color="maroon">'''R<small>OGER</small>&nbsp;D<small>AVIES</small>'''</font>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 10:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
== 98.192.11.182 ==

{{vandal|98.192.11.182}} making [[WP:POINT]] (and 3RR) edits to [[Pink Floyd]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pink_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=245201492], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pink_Floyd&diff=prev&oldid=245204893]), despite more than one final warning being issued for this behaviour. POINT evidence includes [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric+Light+Orchestra?diff=240573816], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Black_Sabbath&diff=prev&oldid=242120837]. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 12:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[WP:AIV]] is that way. [[User:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#28c"><b>fish</b></u>]]&amp;[[User_talk:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#D33"><b>karate</b></u>]] 12:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::So it is; and were I reporting vandalism, that's what I would have used. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 13:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::The edits are bad, but I would be amazed if an admin working on AIV would handle this.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 13:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Done! [[User:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry]] ([[User talk:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|talk]]) 13:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm inclined to agree with Pigs-on-the-wing that this is/was disruption rather than vandalism. If the British approach is to treat it like a plural, then so be it. And I'm pretty sure it is, an other example (from Monty Python) being that such-and-such a city "have never won the English football cup" (not "has" never won, as we would say in America). Also note that it's the "The Beatles were", not "The Beatles was", no matter which side of the Atlantic you're on. What's with all these bogus "grammar" arguments today? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::[[Gram-negative bacteria|Grammar-negative bacteria]] in the water? <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 13:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::You've got the germ of an idea there. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Spend some time watchlisting any British band that are popular in the US, hehe - certainly at least one well-intentioned person a week "corrects" the perceived grammar mistakes in the lead of [[Iron Maiden]]. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 14:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Even though it's not standard American English usage, I could easily argue that it should be, for consistency. "The Beatles" and "Iron Maiden" and "Pink Floyd" are all bands, with multiple members. The British are pluralizing based on that fact rather than on the words used to make up the groups' names. But in sports we take the British approach to some extent:  "The New York Yankees are..." and "The Minnesota Wild are..." show consistent usage. But with bands, for some unknown reason, it's not done that way. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 14:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::It might be a good idea to take this to [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style]] to get a consensus. While 98.192.11.182's edit pattern is definitely disruptive, Andy's assertion that British English should always pluralise collectives ...
:::::::::''Note: This article is written in British English, which treats collective nouns like bands as plurals (that is: Pink Floyd ARE a band). Don't change this''
::::::::...is plain wrong.
::::::::UK English swings both ways according to context (i.e. whether the focus is on the collective as a single entity or as its members). See, for instance, [http://books.google.com/books?id=qlxDqB4ldx4C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=English+collective+plural+Pullum&source=web&ots=WODG9XaosY&sig=QGP5oXKIfWI-rg4yYwfQar6GFZQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result Huddlestone and Pullum] - [[Geoffrey Pullum|Geoff Pullum]] is one of ''the'' current authorities on English descriptive linguistics). "Pink Floyd are a band" looks pretty weird to me. The statement is about the band as a single collective entity - the thing called "Pink Floyd" - so "Pink Floyd is a band" is preferable. Whatever, putting stealth editorial inside articles as comments is not the way to handle it, nor, I guess, discussing a content issue here. Take it to [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style]]. [[User:Gordonofcartoon|Gordonofcartoon]] ([[User talk:Gordonofcartoon|talk]]) 16:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Aha. So there's still a question of whether Pigs-on-the-wing are right or wrong about this. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 17:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::No, but is ANI the place for such discussion? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 18:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::: Where did I assert that "British English should always pluralise collectives"? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 18:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm sorry! As you were defending it against 98.192.11.182's changes, I assumed you were the one who added the "''Note: This article is written in British English ... etc''" to the article. Whoever added it, though, it's bollocks. (I see there's a discussion at [[Talk:Pink Floyd#Subject/Verb Agreement]], but nobody actually seems to be basing their arguments on anything tangible like corpus data or current usage guides - which don't support the "are" version).
::::::::::As you say, here isn't the place to discuss it - except that it makes a difference if you're reverting on grounds of undoubted correctness or on grounds of disputed opinion. [[User:Gordonofcartoon|Gordonofcartoon]] ([[User talk:Gordonofcartoon|talk]]) 18:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

On the Pink Floyd website, it says "Pink Floyd have received the such-and-such award for their contribution..." Presumably, the writer of that page knows how to refer to his own group. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 22:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:It seems commonsense to me. Pink Floyd are a group, groups are made up of more than one person, just as football teams are, so we talk of them in the plural. Here in the UK we would say the group are going on tour, or ,the football team are playing tonight. [[User:Jack forbes|Jack forbes]] ([[User talk:Jack forbes|talk]]) 22:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::In America, we would say "the Yankees are" but would say "the Yankees team is". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User talk:Nishkid64]] ==

Am I missing something, or are abusive IPs edits repeatedly getting past the indefinite semiprotection that appears to have been applied and reapplied to this article several times without apparent effect? -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]])
:It appears that the prior protections had been 24 hours each and eventually expired.  The newest protection added today shows "indefinite", so that shouldn't happen again. --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 00:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, talk pages aren't generally supposed to be protected long term (it may be the only way for an IP address editor to contact the user), but in cases where repeated vandalism occurs after the unprotection fades, it may be wise to either increase the time its semi protected or to indef semi-protect it and wait it out till the vandals lose interest. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 00:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:My bad. I forgot to read the expiration dates. -- [[User:The Anome|The Anome]] ([[User talk:The Anome|talk]]) 01:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::That seems to happen quite a lot: the semi expires, but the page doesn't de-tag. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 01:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== {{user|Segregator236}} ==

I'm moving my complaint from [[WP:WQA]], where I was referred to by an admin.

This user is having repeated problems with using non-verifiable sources and not using sources in general. Looking at the user's contributions, he mostly edits articles about Chinese military hardware, and often mis-cites. This user also adds information that is not backed up by reliable sources. Also fails to properly use edit summaries, or when making potentially controversial edits, seeks consensus. Has already been given a edit warring warning [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASegregator236&diff=242880527&oldid=242660879] , and was warned by a administrator [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASegregator236&diff=242921676&oldid=242880527] about the issue. He has also been warned plenty of times in the past about using non-verifiable sources or non-sourced edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASegregator236&diff=197415551&oldid=193605257] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASegregator236&diff=193605257&oldid=193604068] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASegregator236&diff=244323265&oldid=242921676]. 

It appears that friendly warnings are having minimal effect on him; it was only a threat of a banning by a administrator regarding a specific page has actually made him stop on that specific page. This user needs further scrutiny and perhaps a warning with way more teeth. Either the user fails to understand Wikipedia policies, or requires extra help (which has not been asked by the user, but has been provided with the resources, such as the policies regarding reliable sources to correct such behaviour in the past). [[User:ThePointblank|ThePointblank]] ([[User talk:ThePointblank|talk]]) 00:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

: I gave him a one-day block.  He stopped immediately after your warning and then continued again hours later.  The lack of discussion at all is what got him.  He needs to learn to respond to other people, not just sit by and do the same things again. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 05:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== User:Geniusdream ==

{{userlinks|Geniusdream}} has a long line of image violations, with a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Geniusdream&diff=244259160&oldid=244259029 final warning from Bearian three days ago], even though I'm not 100% sure the final warning is an image final warning: this editor seems to be a problem in multiple arenas. Today, he's been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Samplekd0.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=244943412 uploading copyright violations] and overwriting a free image with multiple copyrighted images [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Sarah_Geronimo.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=244942978], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Sarah_Geronimo.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=244943025][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Sarah_Geronimo.jpg&diff=prev&oldid=244944931].&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 00:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've given him a final warning specially stating it's for image violations. <span style="font-family:tahoma;font-size:80%;font-weight:bold;">~ [[User:Ameliorate!|<span style="color:black;">User:Ameliorate!</span>]]</span> <sup>(with the !) ([[User talk:Ameliorate!|talk]])</sup> 01:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== Harrassment by Baseball Bugs ==

{{resolved|no harassment (or harrassment), issue closed [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 04:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)}}
{{User|Baseball Bugs}} has a disagreement with me about whether something requires a source in the article [[E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial‎]]. It's not the disagreement that concerns me. Based on past experience with him, he tends to want to continue messaging a person long after the issues have been discussed to an extreme. And he's following the same pattern here. I told him I did not care to repeatedly have his messages sent to my talk page, and that he should take up his concerns on [[Talk:E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial‎]]. I even copied a few exchanges about our differences to that talk page and advised him to discuss the issue there instead of repeatedly making comments on my talk page. He refuses, and since my request has sent me these messages: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=prev&oldid=245144791], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245144791], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245146667], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245148830], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245149495]. I believe he is about to step over the line on policies on [[WP:HARASS]] if he has not already done so. Everything will be fine if he will simply confine his comments about the issues of [[E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial‎]] to the article's talk page instead of my talk page. But I don't think he is willing to do that unless an admin discusses this with him. Thanks for any help. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 03:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:The above user has already spent far more time and energy copping an attitude than would have been required to simply answer my questions. He has now deleted three fair questions and comments from his talk page, so I'm done talking to him... hopefully permanently. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::And the "past experience", to which he refers, goes all the way back to yesterday. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Meanwhile, I am now asking the same reasonable question of other users who I suspect have equal knowledge but a less obstinate attitude. The complaining editor clearly has no idea of what real harassment consists of. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::IF he is sincere about that, that would solve the problem. We'll see. Thanks. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 04:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:Looks like he'll stop. That's that then. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 04:05, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::I don't see any harassment - rather I see attempts at discussion and an attempt by [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] to avoid discussion. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 04:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Shh, you don't tell reporting editors that ''they'' were wrong. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 04:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I've seen many cases where the complaining editors are the ones that ended up with indef-blocks. I don't think that's called for here, though. What ''I'm'' seeing is a guardianship of the E.T. page that borders on ownership. That's understandable, as I am pretty protective of certain pages also. The difference is that I'm always willing to talk to anyone who raises a question, and I don't try to dictate to them where they can ask those questions, as my talk page does not belong to me any more than an article's talk page does. And when I do ask them to refocus on an article's talk page, I actually continue the discussion there, instead of pushing it there so that I can ignore it and not have to see orange "new message" banners. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:::The point is, I have simply asked for the discussion to occur on the article's talk page so that the entire Wikipedia community can be aware rather than Baseball Bugs repeatedly sending messages to me. I have expressed opinions on the article's talk page, let's see what others have to say. I just want the discussion confined to that talk page, not mine. I'm not avoiding discussion, I just want it in the right place. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 04:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Talk pages exist so users can send messages to each other. It's not outside his rights to want to contact you directly. '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 04:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Precisely, and he didn't ask, he ''ordered''. I am not in the habit of following orders that aren't rule-based. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Meanwhile, a kinder soul both answered my question ''and'' found a citation: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Baseball_Bugs&diff=245156392&oldid=245152780] [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::It's not outside anyone rights to send a message. But when the debate pertains to an article, and the recipient of the messages (again and again and again) requests that the discussion should be moved to the article's talk page, then it becomes harrassment. Note as evidence of the proper venue for discussion that once the issue '''was''' moved to the article's talk page, the issue was almost immediately resolved. Baseball Bugs wasn't satisfied with addressing the issue pertaining to the artice (on the article's talk page). He had to repeatedly add comments to a user's talk page, long after the user requested that discussion occur on the article's talk page. His purpose wasn't to discuss the issue; that could have been done very easily on the article's talk page. His purpose was to harrass a user with whom he had a disagreement. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 12:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::You didn't "ask", you ''ordered'', despite the lack of any rule or authority to issue such an order. You are the one at fault here. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 17:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Let's get a little perspective on the time frame involved. It was only when Baseball Bugs sent '''five''' messages to my talk page ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=prev&oldid=245144791], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245144791], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245146667], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245148830], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245149495]) '''after''' I asked him to take it up on the article's talk page that I insisted that he cease harrassing me. I didn't begin the discussion by insisting on anything. I simply told him that I wished to continue the discussion on the article's talk page. It's quite a stretch to call that ''ordering'' him to do something. There was absolutely no reason he needed to send those messages to my talk page except harrassment. He could have taken the issue up on the article's talk page very easily because I had copied our entire discussion there and had informed him of such, but discussing the issue on the article's talk page wouldn't have been enough harrassment for me, would it? And he couldn't even stop at that. He had to throw in a personal attack in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=next&oldid=245148830 one of the edits]. And speaking of ''ordering'' other editors, he didn't have any compunctions in the least about ''ordering'' me to put something on the article's talk page if I moved the discussion there in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ward3001&diff=prev&oldid=245144791 this edit]. And I wish someone would explain how I was trying to "take ownership" of the article based on two edits in which I properly asked for a source. The last time I checked [[WP:OWN]], asking for sources is not assuming ownership. This is not me "taking ownership" or "ordering" or any of the other descriptors that Baseball Bugs conveniently came up with after the fact. Once I moved the issue to the article's talk page, it was pure and simple harrassment. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 00:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::P.S. I also find it interesting that Baseball Bugs has had a couple of blocks for ... (take a guess: not simple vandalism, not 3RR, not those thing that don't directly involve other editors ... no he was blocked for) ... harrassing users. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 00:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Yep, 10 months ago. And it was for something more like actual harassment, not for asking fair questions on a user page despite being ordered not to by someone who thinks the user page is his personal property. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::10 months ago does not make it less of a pattern of behavior. If I am arrested for shoplifting for a third time, how much sympathy will the judge have if I say, "But the first two times were 10 months ago"? And you have utterly failed to explain why you had to ask "fair questions" on my talk page rather than the article's talk page after I moved the discussion there. You ignore that little detail because it's that particular issue that defines your behavior as harrassment. Why did it have to be on my talk page, when you could raise any issue with the whole community on the article's talk page? And, of course, your feeble reply will be that you wanted an answer from '''me''' rather than the whole community, despite the fact that I am perfectly capable of responding to your questions from the article talk page (and it's ''my'' choice whether I want to reply to you despite your ''ordering'' me to reply), and placing your questions there might have generated opinions from editors in addition to me. If anyone was assuming ownership it was you, assuming that '''you''' owned my talk page (and even owning my editing rights) by harrassing me instead of placing your concerns where they belonged. [[User:Ward3001|Ward3001]] ([[User talk:Ward3001|talk]]) 12:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Not for nothing, but once it was resolved Ward3001 could have just Cc'd the discussion over to the Talk page.  I've done similar things in the past when I felt like a particular conversation needed to be visible in another place.  No need to make a federal case out of it...
:It's funny, when I saw the section header, I was all set to say, "Baseball Bugs can be kind of a dick sometimes, but when he is, he's almost always in the right."  hahaha, no offense Bugs.  But you weren't even being a dick this time!  How disappointing.  heh... --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 17:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::When I'm accused of something, such as harassment or wikistalking or disruption or edit-warring or of being a general pest or a jerk, I would at least like for the accusation to have some merit to it. I strongly object to lame accusations. Or at least I lamely object. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 18:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree. How exactly does this <u>define</u> as [[WP:Harassment|Harassment]]? [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 03:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::He saw it as harassment because he ordered me to stop asking him questions on his talk page, which he is under the mistaken impression is his own property, and I ignored his order and continued to ask questions because I actually believed (AGF) that he might answer them. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(outdent) Truly odd ... on Wikipedia we try to ''discuss'' and ''resolve'' issues on each others Talk pages ... suddenly, the communication pillar of Wikipedia is ''harassment''?  Although, it might have been mildly humourous to see Bugs with a 24hr ban ... any post that has "lame", "jerk" and "dick" within a few words of each other deserves some action :-) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 13:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Picky, picky, picky. :) ''Most'' users are open to reasonable discussion on their own talk pages. ''Some'' adopt an ownership attitude and try to manage the behavior of others or to stonewall them. One index for such behavior is [[User:Tecmobowl]], who managed to get everyone mad at him for just such behavior and was eventually indef-blocked. In this case, the user's behavior is nowhere close to that, although I have confidence that with some effort he could at least get into Tecmobowl's neighborhood. 0:) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Meanwhile, I think there have been more comments here ''after'' the "resolved" posting than there were before it. So I'll stop commenting now (unless something new and different comes up) and hopefully this "resolved" thread will get archived soon. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== More on [[Oxford Round Table]] ==

{{resolved|no action needed here, community updated by this notice. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 20:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Referring back to [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive483#Oxford_Round_Table_misuse_by_2_editors:_Nomoskedasticity.2C_Academic38_and_2_administrators:_Toddst1.2C_Jayron32|the latest recent discusson]] about [[Oxford Round Table]], I have created [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Astutescholar]]. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 04:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:That's an interesting report. It seems to be a complex case. An experienced admin should investigate this case. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 07:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::RFCU shows yet another highly likely sock. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 06:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Threat of violence ==

{{Resolved|FBI contacted, nothing further can be done. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 02:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Against Barack Obama [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=245331018 here] by {{user5|74.167.102.211}}.  It's a static IP.  I've blocked the user. Can someone else follow up with law enforcement please?  I have a RL commitment that I need to attend to or would do it myself.  https://tips.fbi.gov/ would be where would start - I've had quick response on issues like this in the past from that site - they've called back within minutes.  Thanks. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 00:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I second this request - we should not take these kinds of threats lightly. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 00:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Done. I've contacted them via the link Todd has provided with the url of the diff. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 02:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I just did the same thing now that I'm back. Thanks Eric. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 02:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Secret Service just called. Couldn't access the diff. It's kind of scary to think that the people guarding our leader can't pull up a web page. :) Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
← Did we provide the IP address and any other information that a checkuser can find? <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 06:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:IP address and time is all they need. Yes, they have that.   [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 14:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::I was thinking that this is the type of publicity wikipedia doesn't need. However, if someone actually gets nailed for this, such publicity might (I only say ''might'') discourage future threats. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 14:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Osho]] dictatorial editing ==

*Two editors [[User:Jalal|Jalal]] & [[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]] are resisting the inclusion of material in the lede section of the [[Osho]] article. 
*Discussion had led to a condition of lede stability that  lasted a number of weeks. User [[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]] then made this change [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245150101&oldid=244115908]. 
*[[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] reverted to this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245343313&oldid=245321736] and requested, via the edit comment, that any such changes be discussed on the talk page first. 
*This led to the following revert [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245402227&oldid=245349554] by [[User:Jalal|Jalal]] and the following comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#Lede_revisited]. 
*[[User:Jalal|Jalal]] claims that concensus for his reversion was arrived at and is citing the following as support [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#lede] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#.22Osho_revealed.22] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#3RR] 
*[[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] again reverted to this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245343313&oldid=245321736]
*[[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]] reverted to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245402227&oldid=245349554] and left the following [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#Lede_revisited statment] saying ''I prefer the shorter version''
* The users are forcing a [[WP:3RR]] stand off to desuade change, and have not reached concensus.
*An informal review relating to GA approval by [[User:Vassyana|Vassayana]], on the 14th of August 2008, mentions that the ''lede is a bit too long'' and this is being cited as justification for excising from the lede material that is viewed as negative by both [[User:Jalal|Jalal]] & [[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]]; despite the fact that efforts were made to address a wider range of sources and establish evidence of differing opinion: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#Review_of_sources_covering_the_move_to_America] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Osho#Medical_condition_as_possible_pretext_to_enter_America__-__source_review.].
This is simply one incident of many relating to a pattern of [[WP:TE]] by [[User:Jalal|Jalal]] & [[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]], but that's another issue, generally an attempt to hammer out a compromise takes 
place, but the users in question display [[WP:OWN]] particularly user [[User:Jayen466|Jayen466]]; making the inclusion of material that threatens the Osho follower endorsed ''official version'' difficult. 
Please note that Lewis F. Carter's, Cambridge University Press publication (1990), Charisma and Control in Rajneeshpuram, widely regarded as the most authoritative survey of the Osho Rajneesh movement, 
points out that ''Rajneesh representatives are consummate "histroical revisionists" and now deny that many of the events recorded here [his work] ever happened. Both factual events and interpretations of 
these are still disputed, even where evidence is overwhelming'' (p 118).[[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] ([[User talk:Semitransgenic|talk]]) 12:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Seems like a content dispute. I had forgotten about that guy. Oregon has a reputation for being tolerant of all types of loonies, but this guy's crowd pushed the state's tolerance level pretty far. Have you tried talking to the other editors directly, about the most recent disputes? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::I have found that talking to the two in question is often futile, when there is a difference of opinion about content, and it's a 2:1 scenario, hence this post. The lengths that need to be taken to make the smallest contributions are tiring, see the source reviews I provided as an example. [[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] ([[User talk:Semitransgenic|talk]]) 12:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

*First, from the header of this page: "This page is not part of our dispute resolution process. If you want to discuss the possible misuse of administrative powers, you can do so here. However this is not the Wikipedia complaints department. If your problem concerns a content issue and does not need the attention of administrators, please follow the steps in dispute resolution." This ''is'' a content dispute; {{user|Vassyana}} pointed out in his [[Talk:Osho#Informal_article_review|informal review]] that the lede needed "some trimming"; the previous [[Talk:Osho/Archive_4#Failed_.22good_article.22_nomination|GA review]] likewise commented on the lede being a bit long. 

*Now, given that the last sentence of the second [[Osho|lede paragraph]] clearly states that there were problems with the government and the surrounding society, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Osho&diff=245349554&oldid=245321736 addition to the 3rd para advocated by Semitransgenic] (and ''no one else'') does not add value and only makes the lede even longer than it already was. 

*As for "dictatorial attitude": this accusation is part of a periodically recurring pattern of [[WP:NPA]], [[WP:Civility]] and [[WP:AGF]] infractions by {{User|Semitransgenic}}: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOsho&diff=185988494&oldid=185957919] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Valueyou&diff=prev&oldid=231055733] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Valueyou&diff=next&oldid=244113297] [[User_talk:Semitransgenic/Archive#No_personal_attacks]] [[User_talk:Semitransgenic/Archive#How_about_some_mediation_and_general_cooling-off.3F]] [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive483#Editing_dispute_on_the_Noise_music_page]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Amatulic&diff=prev&oldid=245061229] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AOsho&diff=201562785&oldid=197718087] [[User_talk:Semitransgenic/Archive#RFC]]. 

*I am sorry, Semi, but at the moment it just seems like every time you do not get your way, even over the slightest thing, it becomes a huge personal issue. This is not what Wikipedia is about. You have contributed much to the article, but so have I and others.  [[User:Jayen466|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Jayen</span>]][[User_Talk:Jayen466|<i style="color:#FFBF00;">466</i>]] 13:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

*Not a personal issue at all Jayen, simply a matter of dealing with the facts, some of which you are not comfortable with. [[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] ([[User talk:Semitransgenic|talk]]) 13:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Jayen if you really need to air my dirty laundry please keep the comments in context, cheers [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amatulic#Spiteful_Semitransgenic full comment] [[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] ([[User talk:Semitransgenic|talk]]) 14:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::The issues have been hashed out in great detail on other parts of Wikipedia, so I won't repeat them here, except to mention that there is also a lot similar to-and-fro'ing from January 2008. For anyone with the time to search through the histories it is there. I will however add my opinion that I find Semitransgenic dictatorial and bullying and difficult to work with. It is up to him as to whether he wants to look at that. It is not only editors on the Osho article that have had this experience, so it is not just the subject matter that is controversial and disturbing to him. 
::As the Osho article stands, it is to all intents frozen as edits cannot be made without some sort of approval from Semitransgenic. This is the same situation as arose in January. The article had to be locked and administrators called in.
::On the plus side, Semitransgenic has provided a lot of useful input and a certain balance to the article. His input is usually good, it's his attitude that is a little difficult. [[User:Jalal|jalal]] ([[User talk:Jalal|talk]]) 15:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'll quote jalal on this: "''As you are aware, that is a sword that cuts both ways''." [[User:Semitransgenic|Semitransgenic]] ([[User talk:Semitransgenic|talk]]) 15:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a content dispute, which this board does not deal with. Please pursue [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]], such as [[WP:3O]] or [[WP:RFC]]. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 15:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If editors need a break to be able to sort out a DR process, we could protect the article for say 7 days to afford them some space and time. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 16:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:That would be fine by me. [[User:Jayen466|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Jayen</span>]][[User_Talk:Jayen466|<i style="color:#FFBF00;">466</i>]] 16:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Tamang ==

The issue posted the other day about [[Tamang]] still stands - Archived without resolution in [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive483|483]]. User did change IPs. No apparent action was taken - We're now up to 6 reverts of the most blatant copyvio I've ever seen turn into a consistent issue. Can I please get someone to do something to prevent recurrence? Would semi-protection be out of the question? Would a block be effective? Not sure which to ask for, but some action must be taken. We should treat copyvios as something worse than vandalism if we want to maintain the appearance of good-faith in the face of legal threats. [[User:MrZaius|<font color="Blue">'''MrZaius'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:MrZaius|'''<font color="Blue">talk</font>''']]</sup> 16:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

: I don't think a block will work as the IP keeps rotating.  Given the increasing desire to post the copyright, I'll try a week-long semi and let's see if they stop.  If more people could watch the article, that would help. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 17:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== TFA vandalism ==

Some extra eyes on the current TFA: {{USS|New Jersey|BB-62}} would be appreciated. The [[WP:MHCOORD|Coordinators]] of the [[WP:MILHIST|MILHIST project]] have received information that the article is currently under an coordinated attack from 4chan. -'''[[User:MBK004|MBK]]'''<sub>[[User talk:MBK004|004]]</sub> 05:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Protected for an hour 17 minutes ago by John Reaves. Hopefully that will give them enough time to grow a brain. [[Special:Contributions/211.30.16.21|211.30.16.21]] ([[User talk:211.30.16.21|talk]]) 05:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::That might be optimistic. This is 4chan we're talking about, remember? -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] ([[User talk:ChrisO|talk]]) 07:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Are they all being reverted to one revision?  If so, delete that revision and all revisions using it after the time on the MP is up - Experience has taught me that doing so takes some wind out of a 4chan attack's sails. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 19:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'll keep an eye on it. We can always re-protect it. [[User:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry]] ([[User talk:Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry|talk]]) 12:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Lose interest then.[[User:Geni|Geni]] 16:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Andycjp, disruptive editor ==

{{Userblock|Andycjp}} is a disruptive editor who refuses to abide by policies, guidelines and the intentions thereof.  To criticism and advice s/he responds flippantly, aggressively ("Who do you think you are to be my judge and jury?", response to ''Ward2001'' on 7 June 2008 ) or somewhat apologetically, while most of the negative behavior continues.  The editor is extremely active, but very seldom on Talk pages.

The one behavior problem which apparently was solved in about February this year was the habit of marking virtually all edits as '''m'''inor, though it was complained about again in June:   [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=217675467&oldid=217675157 diff] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=217675467&oldid=217675157 diff]   .  I think that the "sarcastic edit summaries" complained about also have stopped.  Perhaps actual "edit warring", too, after this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=224507643&oldid=224507477 blocked - 24h - edit warring].   Some edits are definitely justifiable and valuable.

One type of complaint I have not studied, as I don’t see it as the major issue here.  (Others may chime in.)  This involves pov religious edits and marking anything about evolution as npov, such as this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Galaxy_formation_and_development&diff=prev&oldid=217667203 diff] in June.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acting_out&diff=prev&oldid=244764838 This recent edit] may also be an example.


There are several types of disruptive editing here.  Comments at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andycjp Andycjp’s talk page] show that the same types of problems have come up again and again throughout 2008:
* From January on (and on and on): creating wikilinks which "did not add content or meaning" and/or bluelinking just a part of a previous redlink, making the link totally meaningless.   This continues.  See, for example, the very recent edit to [[Barbara Mujica]] where the redlink ''[[Trailblazers Award]]'' was changed to ''[[Trailblazers]] Award'', a totally uninteresting blue link in the context, see  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barbara_Mujica&diff=prev&oldid=245376545 diff].   Another recent (yesterday)  example is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorder&diff=prev&oldid=245204187 here].

The editor has repeatedly been warned, with careful explanations, about the wikilinking "errors", for example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=221940045&oldid=218131369 here].  In July, an admin warned:  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=223691873&oldid=223689206  "Andy, some of your recent additions and removals of links seem to me to be perverse."]  Another typical example from July is in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Blitz&diff=prev&oldid=224810913 this edit] (changing ''[[St Peter's Hospital, Bristol]]'' to ''[[St Peter]]'s Hospital, Bristol''; a link to the saint himself is just not applicable in this article).

*Another disruptive and damaging type of edit is removing the {{fact}} tag from statements of fact which still need a source/reference.  This is typically done by removing a few non-essential words from a sentence, removing the {{fact}} tag at the same time.  See: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economic_and_social_consequences_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy&diff=next&oldid=245371032 diff] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Economic_and_social_consequences_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy&diff=next&oldid=245371214 diff] from today.  I have explained the problem with exactly these two edits on ''Andycjp’s'' today Talk page  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAndycjp&diff=245438019&oldid=241829102 here] (and promptly received a flippant reply).


This editor’s unwillingness to follow Wikipedia’s policy has been briefly discussed here at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive443#Andycjp ignoring policy|incident noticeboard]] before, and that conversation continued on a talk page, where ''Andycjp'' actually change the title of the section from '''Andycjp ignoring policy (cont’d)''' to just '''Andycjp''', [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Anome&diff=next&oldid=224986536 here].


It may be unwise to speculate about this editor’s motives, but s/he has offered one explanation/justification:  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:The_Anome&diff=next&oldid=225023661 here]:  ''"My theory with red links is that although they have the potential to create new articles, in practise they are often left uncared for, looking messy. [...] ... I can`t help feeling that a good blue link leading somewhere is on the whole better than a red link leading nowhere unless the red is of vital importance. I mean, wikipedia is enormous already, when are we going to stop? I guess it goes back to how finished WP ought to look."''  

In my opinion it is essential for the good of the encyclopedia that this editor be stopped, whether by mentoring, banning or whatever works.  Repeated explanations have been tried and do '''not''' work.

I will inform several earlier involved editors as well as ''Andycjp'' about this report.

[[User:Hordaland|Hordaland]] ([[User talk:Hordaland|talk]]) 18:51, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think his continued ignorance of [[WP:RED]], whether deliberate or unintentional, is disturbing. He's had it explained to him as early as 11 July, but has continued the behavior until even <s>yesterday</s> today. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 19:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::Oh, dear, I don't know the ins and outs.  My report stands.  I'd been told to put it at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism], but put it here by mistake.  Now at AdminIntervention, they tell me it should have been at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard.  I am '''not''' going to put it a third place, so I'll remove the strike-out and leave it here.  Sorry about the confusion.  Hope in any case that the problem gets solved, as the unconstructive edits continue at a terrific pace.  --[[User:Hordaland|Hordaland]] ([[User talk:Hordaland|talk]]) 19:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Reminds me of the first scene of ''[[Ikiru]]''. You're in the right place (I'm reasonably sure). &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 21:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== More Stephen Colbert ==

So it looks like Colbert is encouraging editing of the Bill O'Reilly "Papa Bear" article; he said he added that the host was a nobel prise winner, among other things.  Can we have a unit go check on this please?
[[User:JBackus13|JBackus13]] ([[User talk:JBackus13|talk]]) 19:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Was taken care of when it first aired last night. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Uh i dont know cuz I just saw it again this morning at 10am. [[User:JBackus13|JBackus13]] ([[User talk:JBackus13|talk]]) 20:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:It's currently [[WP:SEMI|semi-protected]] which seems to have stopped all the Colbert-related vandalism for now. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 21:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== spamming by 70.171.215.119 ==

This IP has been spamming links to some commercial entity into a variety of Neuroscience-related articles, as well as creating articles that are really advertisements.  ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.171.215.119 contribs]) The "commercial entity" is a bit nebulous—possibly a venture capital thing—but clearly a commercial entity of some sort.  When I removed the spam from [[human brain]], the IP put it back.  I'm going to remove all the spam and AfD the advertisements ([[The Open Source Science Project]] and [[Research Microfinance]]), but I'll probably need an assist to keep the cruft from coming back. I have warned the IP about what I am doing. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 21:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:See [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Research Microfinance]] and [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Open Source Science Project]] [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 22:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Mmmovie]] - userpage issues ==

[[User:Mmmovie]], who has previously self-identified as [[Mark Bellinghaus]], has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mmmovie&diff=245286466&oldid=244953518 added a userbox to his user page] which is a misguided attempt to ''out'' me. I am not the person named. This is a slightly edited version of a userbox I have on my user page because of an off-wiki campaign by Bellinghaus to connect my account with a variety of unrelated persons following my nomination of his biography for deletion. Bellinghaus also refers to another of his off-wiki targets as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Mmmovie&diff=245307630&oldid=245288280 "crook"]. I would contact the user directly, but I believe that would only escalate things. Can someone please take a look? Thanks. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 13:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:True or not, attempting to out another user is beyond unacceptable.  Indefblocked. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 13:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:: I removed the Outing userbox ... is oversight required? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 13:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::Hard-deleting all alleged personal references, true or not, would also seem to be called for. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Speaking for myself, I don't think oversighting is necessary (since the allegation has already been made in several places off-wiki), but I'm not the person identified by Bellinghaus, so I'm not sure it's my call. Thanks for the quick action on this. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 13:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::The name cited has a familiar ring to it, but I can't place it. I wonder if it's the real name of another user here. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::As a result of the off-wiki accusations, that person did create an account here in order to contact me. I don't believe they are currently active, and the username is very different. You may have seen the name on my user page, where I have a userbox stating that I am not them so that they are not held responsible for my actions. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 14:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Hmmm, looks like oversighting occurred.  <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 14:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
[[User:Mmmovie]] has left [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mmmovie&curid=8670658&diff=245539022&oldid=245437790 a statement] on their talk page, including, among other things, the same mistaken ''outing'' and the suggestion that the blocking admin is part of a conspiracy to support ''"a mean and sick fraud project which is out and created solely to defraud the paying public with some foolish fabrications"''. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Dealt with by Blueboy96. Thanks. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 23:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Disruptive editing ==

Me and [[user:Greekboy]] have had enough of [[user:Imbris]]'s personal attacks. What was originally a dispute over a page has turned into insults, accusation, and inappropriate behavior. Imbris has accused [[user:Greekboy]] of being my sock [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGrk1011&diff=233236719&oldid=233234487] because Imbris feels like we cant be the same religion, live in america and like Eurovision. (Something that was a definate and un-needed personal attack the way he worded it) He also tells me that [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=245487990&oldid=245487160] i know nothing about Yugoslavia because I was not born there, and even adds "And Grk1011/Stephen is the master of the Universe (and this talk page also) :=)" as a concealed note after one of my responses so that the next person will read it.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADzole&diff=244256226&oldid=243582360]. 

We are not the only ones having problems with Imbris, he gives anyone who edits an article having to do with Yugoslavia a hard time, bringing politics and irrelevant and original research into every discussion he engages in. There was a big debate about the Olympics as well, just read some of his edit summaries [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Imbris]. He always reverts everything back to the last version approved by him whether any edits since were acceptable or not [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2005&diff=prev&oldid=244246687] (reverts to bad grammar again [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eurovision_Song_Contest_2005&diff=prev&oldid=244473641]). He also adds mis-information about the Eurovision Song Contest, considering politics that have nothing to do with the contest [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest&diff=232517026&oldid=232438565] (According to contest, only one Yugoslavia in the contest).

He continues to put down the official site of the contest [http://eurovision.tv] and officially released books saying that IT people made the website and therefore it is unreliable, and the book is not written by a credible author?? We have had it with this user and he is making editing very stressful, which is why we have decided to submit a joint civility complaint. His POV edits and his childess personal attacks need to stop. I'm sure if you look at his edits, you will see that he can't do one thing without causing controversy; ignoring reliable sources for his own agenda. 

Our goal is not to complain, but the personal attacks and such have made it very stressful to edit, with today's attack about being from the US the breaking point. We cannot just sit back as he goes around causing so many problems, so please help us and other editors out. [[User:Grk1011|Grk1011/Stephen]] ([[User talk:Grk1011|talk]]) 22:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC) & [[User:Greekboy|Greekboy]] ([[User talk:Greekboy|talk]]) 22:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Taking only a cursory look at this, [[User:Imbris]] ''is'' making some rather bold statements without any substantiation; a statement like "I belive that those three users deliberately post data based on dubious sources" isn't helpful anywhere without substantiation. Personal attacks... maybe... definitely ''[[ad hominem]]'' arguments- saying that because they are not from Yugoslavia that they are incapable of knowing as much/more about a Yugoslavian subject than native-born persons. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 22:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


The complaint of Greekboy and Grk1011/Stephen has nothing to do with my alleged disruptive editing but with an attempt to discredit my editing and in addition trying to shut me up.

Yes I commented about the similarity of approaches by those two editors but not accused them of sockpuppetry. I simply expressed my suspicion in that direction. This was obvious when Greekboy changed the comment of Sims2aholic8 to a support vote [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Talk:Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest&diff=next&oldid=233116510]

My sentence: "I do not know why Grk1011/Stephen who lives in USA thinks he knows better what happened in ESC 1992 than Dzole, Zvonko and me (editors who live or were born in Yugoslavia)." posted [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FNoticeboard&diff=245487990&oldid=245487160] do not presumes that Grk1011/Stephen do not know what happened in ESC 1992 but that it is obvious that he knows best.

The entire complaint is based on false reading my comments.

The comment made in a summary line, quoting "And Grk1011/Stephen is the master of the Universe (and this talk page also) :=)" was made because Grk1011/Stephen demanded that I do not reply on my talk page. This comment was ended by a smiley.

Also it is worthy of commenting that Grk1011 decided to quote what has happened a few months ago. Why dragging the alleged disruptive editing to the such extend if he did not react when those suspicions were made.

[[Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is an official site "reliable"?]] is the best description of the merit of our dispute. Namely Grk1011 and his [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision|WikiProject Eurovision]] supporters insist [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-08-24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest|(here)]] on a one source policy and the perfection of that single source.

I have successfully brought the Olympic editing to a compromise and if I have reverted some grammatical errors it was done because Grk1011 reverted the meaning of my previous edits. It is a completely different story when someone revert a meaningful edit (which contributes to overall correctness) and a mere grammatical or spelling error.

I will continue to defend my self from those numerous accusations by Grk1011 and Greekboy even if they themselves listed and used foul language and phrases without proper sourcing and with a hidden intent and agenda to discredit my person and not my editing.

[[User:Imbris|Imbris]] ([[User talk:Imbris|talk]]) 23:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not sure how to go about this, but this is not to "discredit your editing".  I & Grk1011 have commented on the past about taking those remarks as personal attacks, and just today you re-wrote and insinuated that since Grk1011 is from the US and you and other user were born in Yugoslavia, that you know better than he does.  As for your comment on vote change, as I said back then, all I did was move my comment up to where it was supposed to be, and add a vote tag in front of Sims' response, which he was obviously for. (but did not put as he did not know the procedure).  He commented that he was for it after you accused too.  It wasn't like I changed a no to a yes.  But regardless, this is not about that.  This is about your personal attacks about us being from the US and mentioning our religion, which was def. not needed.  Just a couple of hours ago, Imbris posted a comment starting out with "Our Greek friend". ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AYugoslavia_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest&diff=245554015&oldid=245481255]) I way I read it, I see it as very unnecessary to mention nationality at all.  Anyway, I will let Grk1011 speak for his own part too. [[User:Greekboy|Greekboy]] ([[User talk:Greekboy|talk]]) 00:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::My intent is not to discredit Imbris, but his editing style is inappropriate. His idea that using the eurovision website would constitute a one source policy would be true if it wasn't the official website of the contest. It is only source that we cannot ignore. In response to misinterpreting Imbris comments, I didn't find his little note funny, it was because he has a habit of dragging conversations over several talk pages. I understand his quest to allow wikipedia to accurately reflect the situation of Yugoslavia, but that does not overwrite the history of an event. What happened at Eurovision did match up with the political situation of Yugoslavia at the time and Imbris will not accept this, insisting on writing what should have happened as if it did, all of which is original research. Our argument has been going on for well over 2 months and we cannot seem to settle the matter and now it is getting heated again. Like I said, I applaud Imbris for his intent, but it is irrelevant in terms of Eurovision and he just needs to stop. [[User:Grk1011|Grk1011/Stephen]] ([[User talk:Grk1011|talk]]) 02:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Block review and contribs checking sought for 98.192.167.30 ==

Could I ask for some more eyes on [[Special:Contributions/98.192.167.30]]?  I've blocked the IP for a week for persistently making uncited and apparently false changes to various zoological articles, but I've also found at least a few edits that seem more or less factual.  Even so, I'm tempted to just revert all of them, but I'd like some second opinions first.  And is there anything else I can do besides waiting and reblocking if it continues?  I'm not really used to handling this type of vandalism from what appears to be a random Comcast IP.  —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 23:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
== Stripping pictures from FA ==

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:''The following discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' <!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----
An IP editor is stripping all the pictures from a featured article.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Search_engine_optimization&diff=245300052&oldid=244995373][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Search_engine_optimization&diff=245300848&oldid=245300380]  I have reason to believe this user is not making a good faith effort to improve the article.  Could another administrator please look at this.  I am not interested in edit warring. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 21:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:Contrary to what you told the IP user, there is no requirement for featured articles to have pictures, and removing them is not vandalism[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Search_engine_optimization&diff=prev&oldid=245301206] plus I'm pretty sure [[:Image:Serp.png]] and [[:Image:Baidu-July-2008.png]] fail NFCC as used in this article. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 21:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

::It looks like there's now a discussion starting at [[Talk:Search engine optimization#images]] --<font face="Futura">[[User:A. B.|A. B.]] <sup>([[User talk:A. B.|talk]] •  [[Special:Contributions/A. B.|contribs]])</sup> </font> 21:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I have responded to concerns at the article talk page.  I suggest continuing the discussion there. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 21:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: ''CW: Contrary to what you told the IP user, there is no requirement for featured articles to have pictures'' Should be. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 21:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yar, find one that doesn't have pictures.  Rules are one thing, customs are another. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 23:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I couldn't find it in a quick search, but I remember seeing an FA nomination for some kind of [[rat]] which was rejected primarly because it didn't include a picture of the animal.  Although the criteria state that an image isn't necessary, in practice, that doesn't seem to be the case. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 23:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::[[Cynna Kydd]]. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 00:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It probably would have been helpful for Jehochman to point out that he has a strong COI on the [[Search engine optimization]] article, considering that he is an executive in an SEO firm, and has been involved in a trademark dispute which names the Wikipedia article as part of the suit.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Search_engine_optimization&diff=221067296&oldid=221065423]  In fact, Jehochman probably shouldn't be editing this article at all, let alone accusing others of vandalism. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 00:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Jehochman's COI is fully disclosed at his user space. His work on that article raised it from a spam magnet to FA. He has complied with this website's guidelines and expectations in that regard. Getting back to the original point of the thread, I agree that summary removal of all images from an FA can be described as vandalism. It would be a different matter if images were in violation of non-free use policy or if some were arguably gratuitous. But simply stripping all images out is like deleting whole paragraphs or article sections: we don't do that unless there's good reason. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 00:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I disagree that Jehochman's COI is "fully disclosed" at his user space, as I see nothing there about the trademark dispute, though it is helpful that he disclosed it at the talkpage of the article.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Search_engine_optimization&diff=221067296&oldid=221065423]  However, Durova, as you and I both know, perhaps it might be best if you too were to avoid issuing determinations on this matter, to avoid any complications involving COI? --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 01:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Elonka, these insinuations are off-topic and inappropriate.  This thread inquires whether wholesale removal of all images from an article, without edit summary, constitutes blanking vandalism.  I agree that it does.  And I give that opinion as the contributor of 110 featured pictures on Wikipedia and 25 featured pictures on Wikimedia Commons.  Even if one were to accept your assertions at face value, the COI guideline certainly doesn't prevent editors from addressing vandalism.  To the best of my knowledge you have done little work on the media side of Wikipedia content, which appears to reflect itself in the tangential nature of these comments.  Please take greater care and avoid casting unwarranted aspersions upon the ethics of fellow Wikipedians. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 03:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Get a room. Let's focus on the article. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 16:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

This smells like a content dispute to me.  I think that a much stronger fair use rationale could be offered for those images and that the google one could be replaced with free screenshots within the screenshot (see the [[4chan]] article for an example), but I also think that removing these images without discussion isn't productive.  My advice would be to take down the google one for now and make a more compelling rationale for the baidu one (along with modyfiying the article to support the rationale where possible).  In general, I would just complete the [[WP:BRD]] process ''for'' the IP editor, rather than just reverting.  I don't think jerechoman's COI is an issue here. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
: I support improving the illustrations if better alternatives are provided; however, I think the current pictures are better than no pictures. 
:If this is a bona fide content dispute, ANI isn't the appropriate dispute resolution mechanism. Interested editors can join the ongoing discussion at [[Talk:Search engine optimization]]. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup>

::Well, you could produce a similar results page on your own server using any of [http://www.searchtools.com/tools/tools-opensource.html various free search engine software] or you could just create a sandbox page that looks like real search engine results (but without containing the *cough cough* Google logo or anything else derived from or uncannily resembling Google's content) and take a screen-shot of it. This wouldn't demonstrate search engine '''''optimization''''' any more (or less) than the Google screenshot, but at least it wouldn't be [[WP:NFCC|fair use abuse]].
::Now, let's zoom out a little bit and look at the three images in this article, as objectively as we can. We've got not one but two search engine screenshots, one of which also contains Star Wars content copyrighted by 20th Century Fox/Lucasfilm. Also we have a photo of a dark auditorium but which focuses primarily on the Google logo.
::How do any of these help me understand SEO? I don't see anything to indicate that the search results have been manipulated by SEO. (A screenshot of "miserable failure" or "out-of-touch executives" or some other infamous Google-bomb would be different...) Meaningful free images for this article might include example screenshots and diagrams of deceptive <tt>&lt;meta&gt;</tt> tags, hidden <tt>&lt;div&gt;</tt>, pay-per-click fraud, etc. and other techniques.
::It is in no way vandalism to remove images which don't benefit the article. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 16:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Neither {{user|Jehochman}} nor {{user|Durova}} should be working on the [[Search engine  optimization]] article. Jehochman should not, because he's involved in a  trademark dispute regarding the article, and it appears that he specifically  modified the article[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Search_engine_optimization&diff=prev&oldid=100359173] using a forum post as a source, and then used the Wikipedia article as a source in  the trademark dispute.[http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91184116&pty=OPP&eno=1] Durova should not be working on the article,  because she is an associate of Jehochman's. For example, look at this article  she wrote, [http://searchengineland.com/seo-tips-tactics-from-a-wikipedia-insider-11715.php "SEO Tips & Tactics from a Wikipedia Insider"], ''where she even  mentions Hochman in the first paragraph''. So, yes, let's get the article fixed,  but let's be careful that it's done only by ''uninvolved'' editors and administrators. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 17:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Interesting opinion, but it is only that. After all, it has been decided that {{user|Jossi}} can happily work on [[Prem Rawat]], as his possible COIs have been noted. "Person X should not be working on the article, because she is an associate of person Y, who may have a COI"? Are you serious? How many degrees of separation do you think should apply here? "Person W should not be working on this article, because they once nominated person X for adminship, where person X is an associate of person Y, who may have a COI", ''ad infinitum''? [[User:Achromatic|Achromatic]] ([[User talk:Achromatic|talk]]) 18:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Well at least editors have not been actively deceptive about their involvement in the external dispute (unlike the infamous ''Nacktverkauf der Lederhosen'' controversy). If Mr. Hochman wasn't voluntarily using his real name, implying that he had a "COI" would probably be bannable as "outing". Interestingly both he and Durova have written quite a bit about the paradox created by these policies. I'm not overly concerned with his interests other than as the primary author of the article as it currently stands (featured but with three images whose relevance and compliance with policy are... disputed to say the least). Sure, citing oneself is poor form, but it may have been a matter of convenience rather than deliberate evidence manufacture as the edit was made a year and four months before suit was filed. As long as the ascella.net spam dated "Sun, 27 Jul 97 03:09:22" isn't a complete hoax I don't see a problem with mentioning it in the article, regardless of what purpose it serves elsewhere. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 19:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(ec) Elonka has recently happily edited articles on products of her company, like [[HeroEngine]], and on her colleagues, like [[Jennifer MacLean]]. I think Elonka should leave her personal feelings towards other wikipedians behind her. That way needless wikidramas can be avoided, which serve little or no purpose on this encyclopedia. [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 19:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thank you very much, Mathsci.  And for the record, I have never edited this article.  I did not participate at its FAC and never posted to its talk page until last night.  The publication Elonka cites is something I wrote for free as an extension of my Wikipedia volunteer work: I was attempting to deal with the spam problem at its source by educating SEO professionals about our site policies.  One would hope that the WMF's most prolific contributor of featured pictures could answer a query about image use without enduring this sort of thing. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 19:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
<--- Honestly, I think it would be best for Elonka to go left and Jehochman to go right and keep walking. Both seem to have some feelings toward each other based on what I am seeing. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;">[[User:sp|<span style="color:#000;">spryde</span>]] | [[User_talk:sp|<span style="color:#000;">talk</span>]]</small> 00:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'm placing an archive box around this thread. Quarrelling and bickering is never time well spent; everybody take a nice cup of tea and move on, please. And yes, I echo Spryde's thoughts; there are editors participating in this discussion that truly should make an effort to remain divorced. <span style="font-family: Garamond;">[[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] ([[User talk:AGK|talk]])</span> 15:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>

== Uncivil comments discourage participation ==

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:''The following discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' <!-- from Template:Archive top-->
---- This snowball'd until he was driven off the project. This could have just as easily been discussed on Yanni's talk page without the need for escalation. Closing this so further damage isn't done to reputations on both sides. [[User:Wizardman|<span style="color:#060">'''''Wizardman'''''</span>]] 14:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
: (opposing opinion): I disagree with Wizardman's assessment of this thread.  In my opinion, Yannismarou was already on his way out, and this ANI thread had nothing to do with it. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 15:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

----
"Don't you see your damn book you are so fond of is already cited in "References"! Stop re-adding it in "Further Reading"! Some common sense at last!--Yannismarou (talk) 06:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)"

The message above was the very first message I received on “talk” after beginning to participate in Wikipedia about a month ago. I've made scholarly contributions to several topics, all with appropriate references. The comment above was apparently in response to my restating a single scholarly reference in the "Further Reading" part of the "Law" page after someone unknown deleted it.

This person has apparently adopted an overly proprietary attitude towards said page, and considers it his/her property. "Further Reading" on that page consists of three sources unrelated to the one I placed there, and apparently is considered the private bookshelf of this individual. "References" on this topic consists of over 100 sources, which anyone seeking additional reading is unlikely to page through.

If this verbal abuse is typical of the kind of behavior and comments one can expect from Wikipdeia, I can spend my time on something else. I've published numerous articles in other printed encyclopedias, and can do that instead. Even editors need to have some respect for fundamental human dignity of other persons--all persons.[[User:Mervyn Emrys|Mervyn Emrys]] ([[User talk:Mervyn Emrys|talk]]) 23:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
: I would agree that some of the comments of {{user|Yannismarou}} at the [[Law]] article do appear to be a bit excessive.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Law&diff=prev&oldid=245174674][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Law&diff=prev&oldid=245174918]  Generally as soon as one is putting exclamation points into edit summaries, it may be time to take a break. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 00:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, there seems to be a [[WP:Civil]] issue there. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 00:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If editors kept reverting each other well past 3RR, but were extremely polite in their edit messages, would that qualify as a Civil Edit War? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 10:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:No. It would be an edit [[civil war]].[[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 01:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Are you serious, guys?!!!! Are you serious?!!!!! What nonsense is this?!

This guy is obsessed with a damn book, and he insists in mentioning and referencing it, even if this book adds nothing to the article! This is his sentence: "Law must be viewed not as a body of static rules but as "a dynamic process by which rules are constantly changed, created, and molded to fit particular situations."" Why is this so necessary for the "Institutions" section?! Clearly needless IMO!

I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Law&diff=238775403&oldid=238720008 rt him], telling that this book adds nothing to the article. But he insisted! I respected that, and I accepted the book, and the one sentence Mervyn added, although I still believe that this sentence is not a + for the article.

Since this book is now used as a source and it is cited (something I disagree with), I removed it from "Further Reading", and I moved it under "References". This is its proper place. To my surprise, and while I was trying to save this article from losing its star, I saw that Mervyn came back, and re-added this book to Further Reading, where it has no place.

Reading his thread here, I still see that he hasn't yet understood how a quality article works: A cited book is cited under "References"; not under "Further Reading". Now, if Mervyn cannot realize these simple things or if he cites in this erratic way sources in his other articles, it is not my problem. I do have the right to get angry, when I see absurd edits, and I do have the right to get angry with editors like him who IMO harm the article with their needless additions instead of helping it get better.

I also regard this ""Further Reading" on that page consists of three sources unrelated to the one I placed there, and apparently is considered the private bookshelf of this individual" as offensive, and I ask Mervyn to take it back, and apologize. Otherwise, I have the right to argue that he pursues a personal agenda, since his only contribution to the article is one sentence, and a quote from a particular book he seems so fond of.

This is my opinion about his edits and him, and I have the right both to express it and protect what I regard as a quality article. I do have the right to get ironic, and sarcastic, because there is no rule preventing me from expressing myself like that, if I remain civil, and ''I do remain civil'', because I characterized a damn book "damn", and not an editor. But I have never been uncivil towards this editor and I thus regard [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Yannismarou#Civility this warning] as a personal offense, which should be immediately reversed.

Finally, I feel sorry about Elonka's advice that I "should take a break". It indicates a complete lack of judgment (something I am not surprised of), respect and esteem for all the extensive work I've done in this article during the last two months. Taking a break, and letting the article lose its star is in her opinion the best option. OK, then! I am out of the article, if you don't want me there. Save it yourselves! [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AFeatured_article_review%2FLaw&diff=245504659&oldid=244976756 I'll let anybody in the FARC know of your orders that I'll now follow]. What a pity, by the way, what a pity ... --[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Point of order: you ''don't'' have the right to get angry, or to be [[WP:CIV|incivil]], no matter what you think of other editors - if it isn't polite, don't share it.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 19:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::I do have the right to get angry if I keep my anger within the Civility requirements.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 19:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Yannismarou, no one is agreeing with you.  Every single person who is commenting here, says that your comments were uncivil.  Please take a step back and reconsider your actions here.  Especially as you are an administrator, it is essential that you set a good example of behavior, since other editors look to administrators as rolemodels.  So please, think about what is needed to de-escalate this situation. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 20:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Elonka, you say that as a "rolemodel"?! Come on now! And you dare to remind me I am an administrator open to recall, when you showed no respect to this particular procedure?! But I did de-escalated. I followed your orders and stayed away from the article. By the way, respect my kind request, and stay away from my talk page. It is my right not to want you there, because I have no respect for you. You're not welcome! If you want to say anything about or against me, do it here. Thanks!--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 20:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Yannismarou, I understand that you are probably under stress because the FA-class [[Law]] article is being reviewed, and that you are probably concerned that the article may lose its FA status (see [[Wikipedia:Featured article review/Law]]).  I sympathize with the stress of such a process.  However, please take this as heartfelt advice:  Can you even entertain the possibility that you might be so entwined with the article, that you might be regarding any negative edit to the article as an attack on yourself?  To outside observers here, your actions appear uncivil, though you do not appear to be seeing it that way.  So please, consider just taking a break from Wikipedia for awhile?  I doubt that anything is going to happen quickly to the [[Law]] article in the meantime, and a break might help you to regain some perspective here. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 20:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Gee, I had no idea Yannismarou was an administrator.  I agree with Elonka in the statement above.  [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 20:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::(e/c)It is the opinion of several editors that you have failed to do so. Don't get me wrong. As far as the content dispute is concerned, I'm behind you 100%, but I'm still concerned about your conduct. When you find yourself disagreeing with, or criticising, everyone who comments, you should consider the possibility that you might be misjudging the situation.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::It is obvious that there is a clear disagreement about incivility between us. I strongly believe I was civil, and that Toddst's warning was offensive. You say the opposite. If it is your opinion that the Community shares, then I am sorry, but I feel very bad about that. If this is indeed what the Community believes, then we do not share the same ideas in serious issues, and I thus do not want to be an administrator. Full stop.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 20:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

: If an editor gets upset because their quality work is being destroyed by edits that violate [[WP:NPOV]] or [[WP:V]], we should try to help them stop being upset by dealing with the content problem.  We do have content policies and administrators are allowed to enforce them.  It seems like [[WP:TE|tendentious editing]] is at the root of this problem.  If we deal with that, any civility issues will also be dissipated. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 20:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::That sounds like it is approaching a 'two wrongs make a right' type argument. Civility is a unilateral requirement of Wikipedia, which applies even when 'the other side' is breaking it. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 20:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Please don't put words in my mouth, Sam Blacketer.  I meant exactly what I said.  Expert editors are a precious commodity.  We should try to help them when they encounter difficulties, not drive them off the project.  If somebody is frustrated by a tendentious editor and loses their cool, we should reassure them that their concerns will be addressed, ask them to remain civil, and then deal with the tendentious editing.  I don't see that happening here, yet, on this thread.  [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 20:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::::I hope I am not mischaracterising what you wrote, but the first thing to do with a editor being incivil is that they must stop being incivil. It is no help to Yannismarou for anyone to give the impression that his incivility is tolerable due to his status as an expert, or because it was prompted by a severe editing dispute. That is the impression I got from your comment; it is not a case of 'putting words in your mouth' because I was not stating what you thought but asking for confirmation of whether my understanding was correct. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 20:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC) 

::::: I am sorry if I was not completely clear.  Editors occasionally become upset.  All of us do.  When you notice a colleague is getting upset, it is good to start by asking, "what's wrong?"  Once we understand ''why'' Yannis is upset, then we can reassure them that the issue will be investigated.  Once we are in possession of all the facts, then we can decide what to do.  Showing a little empathy is a good way to get somebody to calm down and be more civil. In no way do I condone incivility, but when both sides are in the wrong, it does not make sense to criticize one while ignoring the other. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

How about renaming this topic to "Expert discouraged from participation"? One cannot isolate an incident without at least having a look at the context of this dispute and the history behind it. Could everyone take into account that Yannismarou (as he states in his userpage) is a lawyer, hence an expert on the subject, and he is dealing with tendentious non-experts?--[[User_talk:Avg|<span style="color:#9090f0;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Avg</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]] 20:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
: Based on the information at Mervyn's userpage: [[User:Mervyn Emrys]], I do not think we should jump to the conclusion that he is a tendentious non-expert.  --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 20:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:: We can definitely jump to a conclusion about the quality of his contributions in [[Law]], though, which have been limited to [[Special:Contributions/Mervyn_Emrys|inserting and re-inserting and re-inserting this specific reference]].--[[User_talk:Avg|<span style="color:#9090f0;background:#ccf">&nbsp;<span style="background:#99f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#66f">&nbsp;<span style="background:#11f"><b>Avg</b></span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;</span>]] 20:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::(edit conflict) If we are really serious about civility we treat it as a two way street. If we respond to perceived incivility with incivility of our own then this is rather inconsistent, especially if we complain about it to a third party like ANI afterward. For example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AYannismarou&diff=245309830&oldid=244765093 Mervyn responded] to Yannismarou in his talk page "Who the hell are you to be deleting scholarly references from a list for "Further Reading" on any page? Do you think you are a god or something?". Is this civil? And why noone up to now has advised Mervyn about it? [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 20:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Mervyn Emrys is obviously a very new editor, who never even had a single edit to a talkpage, until he responded to Yannismarou's comment.  New editors pick up their cues on how to behave, from more experienced editors.  As near as I can tell, when Mervyn was inserting and re-inserting the reference, not a single editor took the time to post a note to him and explain to him what he was doing wrong, or how he could improve.  Instead, he got one generic welcome message to his talkpage, and then the next message was a highly uncivil attack from Yannismarou, with an edit summary of "your damn book".[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mervyn_Emrys&diff=245174559&oldid=241504502] This is a violation of [[WP:BITE]], and might have driven away a potentially very valuable expert contributor.  Yannismarou, for his part, is already an experienced contributor, and an administrator. He should have known better than to treat other editors like that.  What he ''should'' do at this point is offer a heartfelt apology to Mervyn Emrys, explain that he (Yannismarou) was stressed out over an FA review, and took it out on Mervyn when he shouldn't have.  Mervyn would then (hopefully) graciously accept the apology, and Yannismarou and others could proceed to help tutor Mervyn Emrys on wiki-procedures.  We could start by explaining about article talkpages, about revert wars, and about the FA process.  We could also perhaps point Mervyn Emrys at other less embattled articles, which might be places that could ''really'' use an expert's attention.  But trying to go after Mervyn as being uncivil, when he was just responding in kind ''to the first ever personal message that he had received from another Wikipedian'', would not be the right way to approach this. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 21:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Concur. <small>''(Note: I was about to make some sort of longer comment about how admins--no matter how productive--are not immune to [[WP:CIVIL]] and really ought to be held to a '''higher''' standard of civility, especially when under stress, especially when editing on contentious articles, and especially when dealing with earnest newbies...then I did a double-take, giggled a bit in spite of myself, and decided to go make a [[ham and cheese sandwich|ham sandwich]] instead.)''</small> <span style="font-family:impact, serif;background:black;color:red;border-style:single;letter-spacing:1px">Bullzeye</span><small><sup><i>[[User talk:Bullzeye|  (Ring for Service)]]</i></sup></small> 21:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Elonka's suggestion sounds good. Mervyn wasn't to know that a book is normally removed from "further reading" if it's used in "References".  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 21:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Elonka please do not distort my remarks. I am not trying to go after anyone here. I think I have the right to express my opinion which is:
:::::#Wikipedia is not a kindergarten
:::::#Newbies or not, users are professionals in their real lives and they should know what civility is. Telling me that Mervyn took his cue from Yannismarou because he is a newbie doesn't wash. Mervyn is an intelligent professional. Being an intelligent professional and a newbie are not mutually exclusive. If you are an intelligent professional and a newbie and have a personality then you don't take your cues from anyone. [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 21:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Let's not overlook the fact that Yannis is ''already'' proven to be an extremely valued contributor.  Pressuring them when they are upset is not a good way to show appreciation to a volunteer.  By all means, let's have some uninvolved editors help Mervyn Emrys.  That would be great.  Yannis, if you have further problems with tendentious editing on this article, please report concerns to somebody uninvolved, preferably at one of the specialist noticeboards, such as [[WP:NPOVN]], rather than losing your cool.  It will be much simpler to deal with any tendentious editing if you don't cloud the matter with [[WP:CIVIL|civility issues]].  I hope we can all get behind the idea that we are here to help and support our editors, not try to find reasons to beat them up and kick them out. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 21:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Excellent approach. [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 21:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Are enough people watching [[WP:NPOVN]]? <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">'''''[[User talk:Everyme|Everyme]]'''''</span> 02:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

*Tendentious and clueless editors can be ''very'' unnerving and they are never reigned in. More importantly, [[WP:IDHT|refusal to get the point]] is highly, highly uncivil as well, which is of course usually never mentioned by anyone ever, especially not by civility fascists. <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">'''''[[User talk:Everyme|Everyme]]'''''</span> 02:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:And? Two wrongs don't make a right, even in the case of an admin. 
:TLDR ranting in progress starting now. Administrators and valued contributors are not immune to [[WP:COOL]] and [[WP:CIVIL]], and as a user above implied they should be held up to a ''higher'' standard of these policies, ''even'' under pressure, ''even'' under duress, etc. "Tendentious and clueless editors" have to learn somewhere, and the one in question here hadn't interacted with ''anyone'' up until Yannis' message, which may very well have screamed out to said "clueless editor" that it's okay to [[WP:Don't be a dick|be a dick]] if you have an excuse for doing so. I see a lot of this going on at ANI, "valued contributors" violating [[WP:CIVIL]] et al and getting off the hook because of some excuse, and it really disgusts me. [[Richard Nixon]] was not let off the hook after the [[Watergate scandal]]; in other words, no matter ''how valued'' a member of our community is, we should ''not'' turn our backs and say "oh he's obviously under stress, it's okay." '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 02:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Nobody is saying to let Yannis off the hook.  What some of us are saying is don't beat the stuffing out of Yannis while ignoring the possibility that he has a valid complaint.   Just because a concern is expressed improperly does not mean that the concern is invalid. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 02:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Exactly, and as to civil but clearly wrong editing vs "two wrongs don't make a right": ''One'' wrong doesn't make a right, either. <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">'''''[[User talk:Everyme|Everyme]]'''''</span> 03:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Yes, Yannis' complaint is more than valid, and the editor in question should probably have some sort of action taken as well. Tendentious editing is admittedly a bitch, and I don't doubt for a second that the editor was asking for it. However, incivility shouldn't get off with a slap on the wrist either, and while we should take Yannis' complaint into consideration, we can't let it excuse his behavior in any way. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]'''
:::::I agree. We should remove the cause of his distress. <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">'''''[[User talk:Everyme|Everyme]]'''''</span> 03:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Well said. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 03:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::We are not here to punish, nor to preach.  Can we talk to the disputants and suggest better modes of interaction? Hopefully they will listen to outside feedback and no further steps will be needed. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 03:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(Unindent) While your approach and words Jehochman are of the highest calibre and have the potential of diffusing this situation I think we have not examined what exactly in Yannis' comments is uncivil. Is it the reference to the book as damned? The inference of lack of common sense? Is it the exasperated tone? We have to investigate this further before any steps are taken. [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 03:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Both editors have something to offer.   When I first arrived here, I acted stupidly (some say I still do).  If I had received the same sort of greeting as Mervyn Emrys, I might not be here today.  Criticism can be made in a non-derogatory way when dealing with a newcomer. All we need is recognition by Yannis that they can do better.  The issue is not whether the comments met some minimum standard.  Rather, we want to encourage people to do their very best at all times. Mervyn Emrys needs to be counseled about Wikipedia policies and practices. That's how I'd like to see things resolved. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 03:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::The problem still remains that we have not defined what constitutes incivility and what is simply an expression of understandable frustration. If we don't examine the boundaries of such behaviours then we cannot counsel others successfully because our undefined limits might not be accepted by them. As far as newbie encouragement while a worthy goal, and please don't ask me how I was welcomed in Wikipedia, we have to realise that we cannot expect anyone, and that includes administrators, to behave like Miss Manners especially if newbies engage in questionable editing practices. If we insist on such model behaviour, based on undefined criteria, we are going to create a stifling atmosphere which will be counterproductive in the long run. So I still think we have to examine what Yannis did and define exactly where he erred before we approach him. [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 04:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I was very angry and nervous during all night because of this issue. After my last comment here yesterday (and I intentionally left, because I would indeed get incivil), I had taken my decision not only to resign from administrator, but to leave the project once for ever. Whether my comment to Mervyn was excessive or not (and it may have been, although I refuse to treat self-proclaimed publishers of numerous articles as newbies, because they obviously know the difference between "References" and "Further Reading"), there were a series of things that annoyed me, and I above exposed.

:::I finally decided to follow Jenochman's advice (whose cool and careful approach I applaud), and avoid any further interaction with the editor in question. Any future problems will be reported to an uninvolved third party. All this of course theoritically, because in praxis I do not intend to further edit the "Law" article. I do not get any joy out of it any more. And I am afraid I do not get any joy out of editing Wikipedia in general, at least for the time being. No reason to make things that do not offer us pleasure. If I ever feel differently, I'll come back.--[[User:Yannismarou|Yannismarou]] ([[User talk:Yannismarou|talk]]) 07:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I hope you'll decide to stay. You are a valued contributor of good and important content who has markedly enriched the encyclopedia. Nobody's arguing otherwise. But I stand by my original statement; admins, like cops, absolutely '''must''' have a calm and businesslike attitude in their dealings with us lesser folks so that they don't blow a gasket one day and pistol-whip the teenager they catch scribbling dirty words on the wall. The difference is that a Wiki admin has the right, the luxury, and indeed (I would argue) the duty to withdraw from a situation that causes you to begin to lose your cool. Admins are people too. I know you are stressed, but why not call it a short, indeterminate Wiki-break instead of a semi-retirement? As Elonka aptly stated, "generally as soon as one is putting exclamation points into edit summaries, it may be time to take a break". <span style="font-family:impact, serif;background:black;color:red;border-style:single;letter-spacing:1px">Bullzeye</span><small><sup><i>[[User talk:Bullzeye|  (Ring for Service)]]</i></sup></small> 08:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I find it pathetic that a renowned wikipedian such as Yannismarou, who has contributed to human knowledge for  more than  two years and, moreover, is an administrator, has been more or less forced to retire from the WP because of some people’s inconsiderate comments.  Some of his accusers were not even aware of the fact that he is an administrator.  
One of these people also happens to be an administrator and was talking about administrators setting a good example.  My question is: what happens  when one administrator accuses a fellow administrator  of uncivility?  Is that a specimen of good practice among administrators? 
I, as a mere editor, would like to express my deep concern about this incident.   And I hope that this comment will not be considered as wikilawyering as this is not my intention.  Hoping that WP will find an editor and an administrator as or even more competent than Yannismarou, I am  putting a full stop to my thoughts…  [[User:Pel thal|Pel thal]] ([[User talk:Pel thal|talk]]) 08:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC) 08:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, this whole thread is a perfect example of how the civility police tends to escalate things and just causes more bad blood rather than helping. Sure, Yannis blew a fuse, shouldn't have, yada yada, but if a third party really wanted to intervene about that in a helpful way, they could have just left him a friendly message: "hey, was that really necessary? that newcomer looks like he deserves a calmer tone..." or whatever; instead people kept beating him with sticks (ANI threads, blocking threats and whatnot.) This is just so depressingly dumb. If you know the guy is angry, ''just leave him alone''. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I disagree with the approach of "leaving angry editors alone".  If they are abusing other editors, especially new editors (see [[WP:BITE]]), they need to be told to stop, to chill out and take a break.  Yes, Wikipedia can be frustrating sometimes, but that doesn't give anyone the right to go on a [[WP:MASTODON|mastodon]] rampage.  When just hitting "refresh" on the watchlist sends someone's blood pressure up, it's time to turn off the computer and go do something else for awhile. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 14:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::So why wasn't "incivility" taken to WQA first instead, where there's less drama, and more attempts (at least by me) to say "now what did both sides really do here, and where do we go from here?" <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 11:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::And the result of this dispute is: 1) a renowned editor and administrator, who has promoted many articles to FA, has contributed to numerous articles etc is retiring, 2) a newcomer, who obviously does not have the common sense to understand the difference between "Further reading" and "References", is encouraged to do as he likes.  Nice thinking!  PS. I hope I'll not be banned for being sarcastic... [[User:Pel thal|Pel thal]] ([[User talk:Pel thal|talk]]) 10:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Comment'''. [[User:Mervyn Emrys]]'s main contribution to WP has so far been to [[coal mining]],[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coal_mining&diff=238496509&oldid=238255916] where he copied and pasted the content of Pages 1-7 of
 
:::{{citation|title=Mining Environmental Policy: Comparing Indonesia and the US|first=Michael S. |last=Hamilton|publisher=Ashgate Publishing|year= 2006|
ISBN=0754644936}}

:::directly into the article. (Michael S. Hamilton is professor of political science at the University of Southern Maine.) Is there a problem here? [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 11:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::It looks like Mervyn Emrys has a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. We clearly have a copyright problem here. In the situation it seems conceivable that the author of the book might contact OTRS and formally release the copyright of the passage in question. Obviously this is only possible if the author of the book (rather than the publisher) actually still owns the copyrights of the published book. --[[User:Hans Adler|Hans Adler]] ([[User talk:Hans Adler|talk]]) 11:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Hang on.  Mervyn asserts in the edit summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coal_mining&diff=238496509&oldid=238255916] that the info came from a US Government source.  Such material is public domain.  Perhaps he and the author both got the same material from the same place.  This should be checked before jumping to conclusions.  We are off on multiple tangents here.  I suggest we move discussions to each of the users' pages or the appropriate specialist noticeboard.  I don't think any administrative actions are needed at this time. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 12:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::The edit summary is probably inaccurate, but the intent is clearly to add very useful scholarly information to the encyclopedia. The material is from the introduction (Chapter I) of the book by MS Hamilton; the book is cited at the bottom of the diff you provided. It is original writing and not marked as material that has appeared elsewhere in the book; nor is it indicated that it is in the public domain. [http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=tjx4paALjRsC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=MS+Hamilton+coal+mining&ots=RDwtJ6IIXe&sig=ZUb-IZB40Yaaefex4d7xAf32ttw#PPA1,M1] Wikipedians can draw ther own conclusions as to why [[User:Mervyn Emrys|Mervyn Emrys,  "a professor of political science at a large public university"]], should be familiar with the writings of MS Hamilton, a professor of political science at the University of Southern Maine, a large public university. I am not suggesting any kind of conspiracy theory; I am just suggesting that an administrator, experienced in copyright, could give Mervyn Emrys some helpful guidance, possibly by private email, on ways of putting this material properly on wikipedia. Copying and pasting 7 pages is not the normal way of writing wikipedia articles, regardless of the source.  [[User:Mathsci|Mathsci]] ([[User talk:Mathsci|talk]]) 14:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I had an interesting thought reading the above: substitute the name Yannismarou with Giano and how would people have responded to the situation? With patronizing calls to stop editing Wikipedia and abrupt warnings on his talk page? Ya, he needed to cool—a civility pile-on wasn't the way to do it. And all because of "damn" in an edit summary? Well, fuck. I hope the Featured article review doesn't lose one of its best editors over something so trivial. [[User:Marskell|Marskell]] ([[User talk:Marskell|talk]]) 13:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
: It wasn't just the one comment, but that at the time of the ANI thread there seemed to be an escalating pattern of behavior.  Starting with the "your damn book" comment to a new editor,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mervyn_Emrys&diff=prev&oldid=245174559] and then other uncivil comments in edit summaries at the article, over what appeared to be extremely minor issues (a reference and a link).[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Law&diff=prev&oldid=245174674][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Law&diff=prev&oldid=245174918]  When someone starts using exclamation points in edit summaries, it's probably time to take a break. His next comment into the ANI thread was again fairly excitable,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245503369] and his next reactions were to go and "resign" from the FA review,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_review/Law&diff=prev&oldid=245504408] and argue with [[User:Toddst1]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yannismarou&diff=prev&oldid=245508944]  In short, Yannismarou seems to have been melting down in a high profile way, and it's not because of this ANI thread or anything that Mervyn did...  This appears to have been building for awhile.  I'm sorry to hear that Yannismarou has decided to retire, as I feel that that's an over-reaction as well (see [[meatball:GoodBye]]).  I hope that once he cools off, he'll return, and will be able to come back to Wikipedia fresh and find something else to work on which he finds enjoyable. He's been a good editor in the past, he just seems to be going through a rough patch at the moment. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 14:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::So if I take this correctly the solution to when a valued Wikipedia editor is stressed is to threaten him with a block and when he protests in an even more stressed state and decides to leave, to provide links to the meatball website that call such departures "passive agressive" and a stunt to gain more attention. That's a non sequitur if I ever saw one. [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 14:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

===Illustration===
See [[User:Geogre/Comic]].  Let's not escalate the situation by continuing to push Yannis when he's obviously upset.  The message has been delivered and he heard it: better civility is needed on his part. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 14:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Support this. The length of this topic already shows this has gone too far. Let's just calm down and end this. [[User:Wizardman|<span style="color:#060">'''''Wizardman'''''</span>]] 14:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>

== Dispute at [[Khan Noonien Singh]] ==

 
[[User:David_Fuchs]] has apparently taken ownership of the article in violation of [[WP:OWN]].  He and [[User:Juliancolton]] claim there is consensus to ignore validly sourced references from ''[[Star Trek:  Enterprise]]'', but the article talk page shows no discussion, much less consensus.  Mr. Fuchs so far has taken an apparent attitude to the effect of "I'm an admin, you can't stop me, and you're a troll for opposing me."  Please, objective admins look at this and prevent this abuse.  Thank you.  -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] ([[User talk:Davidkevin|talk]]) 02:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 
: Ok then. Where shall we begin. The ''[[Star Trek: Enterprise]]'' addition is in my opinion not worth going into detail as it barely references the subject of the article; the content would be much better served in the referenced episode. Davidkevin has edit-warred to reinstate his revision, violating [[WP:3RR]].[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Khan_Noonien_Singh&action=history] My past experiences with this user haven't been so great, with him continually adding [[WP:SYNTH|unverifiable information]] to an article against [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:RS]], and then calling a level-headed editor who did a better job than me of explaining the issue my "crony". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Davidkevin&oldid=238013355#Cronyism] I'd be happy to take up the editorial issue on the article's talk page, and see no reason this should be here. That is all. [[User:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#cc6600;">Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs</span>]]<sup> <nowiki>(</nowiki><small>[[User talk:David Fuchs|<span style="color:#993300;">talk</span>]]</small><nowiki>)</nowiki></sup> 02:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:: A.)  I'm not edit-warring, as having hit the limit of changes (there's only one of me compared to the two of you to over-ride any article changes I make) I'm bringing it here as a first step in informal arbitration.
 
:: B.)  Your pal called me a psychopath in his first sentence, so that's hardly "level-headed" on his part.
 
:: C.)  If you actually had taken it up on the article talk page, as you have falsely claimed you have, and actually reached consensus, as you falsely claimed you had, and didn't challenge every difference of opinion with an attack and a chip-on-your-shoulder dare to oppose the Mighty You, I'd have no basis for a complaint for abuse of authority.  Yet here we are.
 
:: I await an actual discussion of the issue either here or on the article's talk page.  -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] ([[User talk:Davidkevin|talk]]) 03:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I've started that discussion at [[Talk:Khan Noonien Singh]].  If everyone can agree to stop the edit war, this can be settled without bothering other admins further.  Davidkevin hasn't violated 3RR yet, and David Fuchs is correct that the discussion of this belongs on the article's talk page, not AN/I. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 03:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::: Not commenting on the edit war itself, but not to put too fine a point on it, as for (A)? Wrong. [[WP:EW|Edit warring]] is any kind of back-and-forth editing where multiple parties attempt to get their own version of a page in place.  All edit warring is lame, although in some cases even the reason for edit warring is [[WP:LAME|lame]].  Edit warring is also [[WP:DE|disruptive editing]], which can on occasion lead to a block, even if you have not passed the [[WP:3RR|three revert rule]], which is an electric fence, not an entitlement. [[User:ConMan|Confusing Manifestation]]<small>([[User talk:ConMan|Say hi!]])</small> 23:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:::: Then the policy is [[weasel word]]ed.  Either "three" '''means''' "three", in which case admins are not allowed to play mind reader and decide they know what your intent is through [[Slan|special mental powers]], or it doesn't mean "three" and any admin who doesn't like you for any reason from racism based on your name to how well you spell can block you for making any change to any article just by hanging the label "disruptive" on you.
 
:::: If "three" doesn't really mean "three", then the rule needs another name instead of a false, [[Orwellian]] name.  -- [[User:Davidkevin|Davidkevin]] ([[User talk:Davidkevin|talk]]) 07:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Kermanshahi / -The Bold Guy- / Last king of Frisia ==

{{resolved|See [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Last_king_of_Frisia|the other thread on this page]].}}
;See [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi]] and -
*{{user5|Kermanshahi}}
*{{user5|-The Bold Guy-}}
*{{user5|Last king of Frisia}}
I recently blocked {{user|Last king of Frisia}} for vandalism and he responded with an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Last_king_of_Frisia&diff=prev&oldid=245190944 odd comment]. Not sure what should be done about these or if someone else is more familiar with this. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 16:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Strange, never saw that before! [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 19:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:He is now canvassing an article for GA nominations, for example [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GDallimore&diff=prev&oldid=245634930][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Shaneovens&diff=prev&oldid=245634894][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jniech&diff=prev&oldid=245634842] — [[User:Twinzor|Twinzor]] <sup>[[User talk:Twinzor|Say hi!]]</sup> - <small>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Twinzor|Do I suck or rock?]]</small> 10:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Block requested for 72 hours for incivility and sneaky, hard to detect vandalism ==

{{resolved|Editor has been informed that continuing to disrupt ANI and other editors with this silliness will result in a block. --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 21:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)}}

This person is inserting wrong information and hides it with hundreds of minor grammatical corrections.  Request a 72 hour block to prevent damage to Wikipedia.  During this time, we can search to find errors.  I'm also asking that the editor stop editing for 3-4 days while damage control teams can be formed to investigate.

I've already spent an hour to find one error.  It was where this editor said that Steve Fossett was a board member at Washington University long before he was 24 years old.  This is misinformation.

Diff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Fossett&diff=191756992&oldid=191756650

Discussion of why this is in error:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASteve_Fossett&diff=245505828&oldid=245080315

Offending user:

[[User:Hydrargyrum]]

Thank you.  [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:You want someone blocked for 72 hours for an edit made in February? [[User:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Green">ni</font>]][[User talk:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">Mate</font>]] 20:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The worst scenario is that this is the worst kind of vandalism, something that destroys the credibility of Wikipedia.  Blanking a page is easy to detect vandalism.  It took MONTHS to discover this.

I have asked the editor to voluntarily stop editing for 3-4 days so we can assess his work.  If not, temporary blocking to protect Wikipedia should be done. [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::The offending user has denied making such edit and is being nasty to me on my talk page.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AFossett%26Elvis&diff=245515324&oldid=245514118 )

::At first, I thought the user may have made an honest mistake.  If so, he would have said "Sorry, made an error".  Instead, he is nasty to me and denies the black and white evidence that he has made the edit (see diff).  Therefore, I now recommend blocking him for 72 hours for borderline incivility and for denying that he made the edit. Even his signature is sneaking (says Quicksilver but his user name is Hydrargyrum)
[[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::This isn't sneaky to a chemist.  See [[Mercury (element)]]. —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 20:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::The edit was made in February and the user changed "has been" to "was" on the article of a dead man. Not vandalism, not sneaky vandalism, it's correct. You don't speak of the dead in the present tense. They are not being "nasty" to you - they told you to go away and stop bothering them because you told them to leave Wikipedia for 3-4 days and are calling for a block on them for an edit they made in February. An edit that there is absolutely zero problem with. Again, dead people are referred to in past tense. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC) 

:::User [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] is mistaken.  He/She needs to check their facts and the editing history of [[Steve Fossett]] closer.  He/She is accusing me of making edits that I never made.  A closer inspection of the edit history for [[Steve Fossett]] will bear this out. &mdash;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]</sup> 20:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::(ec) There is no vandalism here. The day Fossett was declared legally dead, Hydrargyrum went through and changed a lot of verbs to past tense. In so doing, he changed "Fossett has been a member of the board" to "Fossett was a member", which due to sentence structure changed the entire meaning of the sentence. A mistake, yes. Intentional vandalism of the article? Sorry, I don't see it like that. I suggest some [[WP:AGF|light reading]]. [[User:Arakunem|<b>Arakunem</b>]][[User talk:Arakunem|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 20:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(OD-Edit Conflicts a'plenty)Yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything to see here other than a very weird situation. Can we close this? [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 20:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::[[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]]' user page makes me concerned that he or she is considering harming themselves. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 20:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::No, this vandalism must not be closed.  The solution is for the vandal to stop denying he made the edit.  Say that he will voluntarily stop editing for a few days so we can check his work.  Then no block is needed. [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::The user made a grammatical error ''eight months ago''. We are not going to "check his edits". The user is clearly not vandalizing and not disrupting the project. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::A mistake it is not.  The user denies making the edit.  He did make it.  That unrepentant attitude and incivility to me shows that he is no good.  I think he was changing to past tense and got a funny idea to vandalize.  If he was doing it in good faith, he would quickly admit it and say he is sorry.  A vandal would deny he did it and change his user name/signature like this person.  Do not shoot the messenger (me).  I am reporting a real error and gave him a chance to fix it.  Instead, he is denying it and fighting. [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::You accused him of adding misinformation in an edit, and he states that "he made no such edit" - in that he did not add misinformation. You have failed to assume good faith about his original edit, and are now failing to assume good faith about his response to your overzealous request for him to stop editing. Can you point to any other pieces of misinformation he has added? If not, I am pretty confident this was an honest, minor grammatical error. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 20:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::(ec x 3) You cannot be serious. It is not vandalism. Steve Fossett is dead and he is referred to in the past tense. This is your first warning to assume good faith. It is extremely clear in the edit summary what was done (and I still fail to see the problem...it looks like the original sentence was poorly written). --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::There, I fixed the article. I don't see anything to indicate this was a malicious change. Can we all move along now? [[User:Arakunem|<b>Arakunem</b>]][[User talk:Arakunem|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 20:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::If it were just written poorly, the user should have said "sorry, I wrote it poorly and didn't mean to introduce an error".  Instead, he is hostile and denies making the edit.

===Proposed solution===
1. The other user promises to be civil and be nice to others.
2. The other user promises to edit carefully so as not to create wrong information.
3. The other user stops denying that he made the edit in the diff.
4. The other user voluntarily stops editing for 1-2 days.
5. To make the other user happy, I will stop editing for 1-2 days even though I found the wrong information, not wrote it. [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::It seems pretty clear that this was a mistaken edit that is the result of what was a poorly worded sentence to start.  Please [[WP:AGF]].  Users should not be blocked on speculation that they "might be hiding sneaky vandalism".  From my perspective, his reaction to a request to stop editing and/or to be banned is perfectly understandable, given that there is no evidence to prove malicious intent on his part. --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 20:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
(EC)Better idea. Please drop this matter completely. Every editor and admin that has looked at your complaint has found it groundless. Please stop, and return to working on the wiki and not trying to start an argument based on an eight-month old edit. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 20:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(ECx2) I think proposal #5 has some merit. [[User:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Green">ni</font>]][[User talk:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">Mate</font>]] 20:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(EC x4)Again, drop it. It was a grammatical error eight months ago. This is your second warning about not assuming good faith. Your persistence in having an editor banned over a clear nonmatter is becoming disruptive. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You are taking the vandal's side.  I found the wrong information.  He denied and still denies doing it.  A simple "sorry for the poorly worded edit, it was not intentional" would be solved it.  Instead he attacks me and denies making the edit.  I initially said it wasn't vandalism until he starting attacking me, which is just what a vandal would do. 

The way it is now, most of you are siding with the incivility even though I gave him ample opportunity to give an excuse.  [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Final warning. Drop it now. You are being disruptive. This is getting ridiculous. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:If [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis]] had initially posted the diff cited above, instead of making [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AHydrargyrum&diff=245512208&oldid=242820626 this rather vague post], this could have been cleared up without any drama. It's all just a series of misunderstandings, and I think we should all carry on with our wiki-lives.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Agreed. The original user changed the tense in a poorly written sentence. F&E didn't even post a diff to the users page. Just told him he vandalized it in February. Of course the user is going to deny vandalizing the page when he didn't vandalize it. Let's all move along. Continuing this is a total waste of everyone's time.  --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You are taking the vandal's side.  I found the wrong information.  He denied and still denies doing it.  A simple "sorry for the poorly worded edit, it was not intentional" would be solved it.  Instead he attacks me and denies making the edit.  I initially said it wasn't vandalism until he starting attacking me, which is just what a vandal would do. 

The way it is now, most of you are siding with the incivility even though I gave him ample opportunity to give an excuse.  

Again, the user should just admit doing it and say that it was not intentional.  That would be the end and a resolved situation.  Threatening me and letting him continue to deny making the edit is administrative abuse.  Read this comment again. [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 20:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:I can't wait until the "damage control teams" are formed to fix the grammatical error in that one sentence.  — [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Andrwsc|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Andrwsc|contribs]]) 21:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
: (ec) As far as I can see the user is very intelligently ignoring you. You are taking up a huge problem with an extremely minor change from months ago, and ''nobody'' seems to agree with you that it was in any way malicious or worthy of further action. Please drop it. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 21:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the user was hostile to me but you are taking his side. He continues to deny making the edit.  He hasn't even said it was an error.  Just you making an excuse for him.

I'm going to be a bit crude here since apparently nothing else will work.

'''Sit down and shut up. Your complaint has been ruled groundless, so stop trying to cause trouble.''' [[User:Jtrainor|Jtrainor]] ([[User talk:Jtrainor|talk]]) 21:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

===Proposed vote===
Support or oppose
1. The user denied making the edit but did make it.
2. Attempts to attack the user who discovered is wrong.
3. Let's continue with life.
21:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

#'''support''' [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis|Fossett&amp;Elvis]] ([[User talk:Fossett&amp;Elvis|talk]]) 21:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:*Okay, now this is incredibly disruptive. You could have just dropped it instead of doing this whole proposal nonsense...especially considering the text you added directly before it. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support block''', a good [[WP:TROUT|trouting]], and a shortlist of reading for [[User:Fossett&amp;Elvis]]. Suggested links: [[Wikipedia:VAND#How_not_to_respond_to_vandalism|How not to respond to vandalism]], [[WP:NPA|No personal attacks]] policy, [[WP:AGF|Assume good faith]] policy, [[WP:DE|disruptive editing]].  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 21:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

===Fossett&Elvis blocked/block review===

I unarchived this because I have blocked F&E 72 hours for violating [[WP:NPA]]. Barneca gave him one more chance [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Fossett%26Elvis&diff=245526654&oldid=245515324 here] and he violated it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Barneca&diff=245527819&oldid=245523698 here]. So...a little block review, please... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 21:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Definitely '''support block''', F&E was warned so many times to drop it and continued to be disruptive despite a complete lack of support for his proposal. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 21:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::'''Support''' block. I'd dare say F&E was near trolling here with the repeated "demands". [[User:Wildthing61476|Wildthing61476]] ([[User talk:Wildthing61476|talk]]) 21:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::yer, see above post  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 21:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Support''' block; F&E was disruptive, was told to stop being disruptive numerous times, given a warning with a pretty big hint of finality, and chose to step across the line in the sand. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 21:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::'''Support''' though the length is a bit extreme for a first time offense, despite it being the length of time he was requesting for a block of someone who changed "has been" to "was". [[User:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Green">ni</font>]][[User talk:AniMate|<font face="papyrus" color="Black">Mate</font>]] 21:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I agree, wouldn't a 12 to 24 hour "time out" be more appropriate here? --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 22:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I guess I thought if he figured 72 hours was how long it would take someone else to stop being disruptive, then he was, in a way, telling us how long it would take him to stop being disruptive... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 22:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::: '''UNSUPPORT'''  That wasn't a personal attack.  He was whining, to be sure, and annoying , but his post was not a personal attack.  The reason for that block isn't valid.   I won't go as far as saying it needs to be reversed, but it seems punitive (sp ?).  <span style="font-family:Gill Sans MT">[[User:KoshVorlon|'''<span style="background:Black;color:silver">KoshVorlon</span>''']][[User talk:KoshVorlon|'''<span style="background:silver;color:Black"> > rm -r  WP:F.U.R   '''</span>]]</span> 16:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

===Treament of [[User:Fossett&Elvis]] at ANI===

[[User:Fossett&Elvis]] came to ANI with what appears to be a non-issue (see [[Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Block requested for 72 hours for incivility and sneaky.2C hard to detect vandalism]] above). They are now justifiably blocked for the disruption that they caused, but I am concerned about how they were treated here. They appear to have been confused and agitated. Their user page has references to "life threatening medical conditions" and suicide. 

I understand why they were blocked, but was there any need for comments like "sit down and shut up", particularly if there is reason to suspect that the user may be having difficulties (for language or other reasons) grasping what others are saying? [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 21:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I read the information on this user's page as templates to be used in the event he came across someone with those conditions, and not as a cry for help or indication of a serious condition. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 21:51, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Do you have reason to doubt his explaination of those statements that he made on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADelicious_carbuncle&diff=245519897&oldid=245485162 your talk page]?  I agree that some here could have been more polite in their replies to him; but given his reply that those were templates that he created to be used quickly in case someone else made a suicide threat, and not issues in his own life, I'm curious if you have reason to re-evaluate those statements? --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 22:02, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::I have no specific reason to assume that the user has an intent to harm themselves, but it seems odd that a user barely one month old has those specific templates at the ready in case they need them. I have no way of knowing ''what'' was preventing their understanding of what everyone else was telling them, just the observation that ''something'' was. I'm simply trying to suggest that assuming good faith may in some cases mean asking if there might be something other than trolling involved. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:(ec)Well, F&E's userpage can be explained pretty easily in that he is showing those templates as things he ''created''. As to the treatment above, I agree with you that it looks to have gotten a bit dicey. However, F&E ''opened'' with intimidation tactics; he told [[User:Hydrargyrum]] in rather plain terms to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hydrargyrum&diff=245512208 stop editing for 3-4 days] while "we" form "damage control teams". That sort of language would ''scare the living hell'' out of an inexperienced editor. It implies rather bluntly that F&E is in charge of something at WP. That, with his [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245512240 ANI request] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245516045 subsequent] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245522344 comments], come off rather poorly. After [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245517965 initial responses] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245517786 saying that] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245518186 there is] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=245519071 no problem], F&E persisted in making accusations. At that point [[WP:DUCK|it looks a lot like intentional disruption]]. While I think some things could have been said better (passive voice ahoy), I don't think there's a big problem to correct. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 22:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::I completely understand why the user was blocked. I'm just wondering out loud if it could have been avoided by taking a different approach in this case. Wikipedia attracts a cross-section of society, and that includes people of with widely varying abilities and foibles. I agree, there's no big problem here. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Am trying to explain matters to F&E. Hope it can be resolved without them retiring (or worse).  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 22:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::(ec) Hm, I see your point Carbuncle. I think part of the problem is the fast pace of ANI; I'm rather new in discussing here, but I'm feeling the pressure (from edit conflicts and other editors saying the same thing) to respond ''quickly'' or to not bother. Thus, those initial responses may not have addressed F&E's points as directly as they should have. F&E may have assumed that the early responses to his complaint were dismissive and the responders didn't understand what he was trying to say. So he keeps restating it, convinced (and growing more so with each response) that he is correct. The end result is neither side will budge. F&E just took it too far. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 22:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::What we have here is a textbook example of a [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT|failure to get the point]]. Now that F&E can’t post here, maybe he will have the time to reread the entire thread to see why things went so wrong. —[[User:TravisTX|<font face="Verdana" color="#2F335F">Travis</font>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<font color="#888888" size="-1"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 22:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(outdent) Having read this long after it occurred, I have to say that F&E was treated properly in this situation.  They received valid warnings, valid information, and valid advice.  Language differences or not, they were given ample, clear information.  I am sorry to see a block based on the whole situation, but I agree that hopefully they will read this and understand.  <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 23:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Feel free to call this one closed. I wanted to at least get a second opinion on the user page, which I got. Thanks. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 23:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

== Opinion of activity ==

{{Resolved|1=No admin action necessary  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 02:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)}}
I was wondering if any editors here had an opinion on [http://politicalbiasonwikipedia.blogspot.com/ this blog] by a currently blocked user?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/72.95.233.200|72.95.233.200]] ([[User talk:72.95.233.200|talk]]) 02:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:He can say what he wants elsewhere. ''Here'', on the other hand...[[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 02:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::[''Posting after "resolved" tag added''.] To the anonymous editor: thanks for opening this up for discussion. However, this noticeboard is specifically for drawing the attention of the project's administrators to matters that may warrant [[WP:SYSOP|sysop]] intervention. Other forums—both on- and off-Wiki—may be more appropriate for this topic. Regards, <span style="font-family: Garamond;">[[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] ([[User talk:AGK|talk]])</span> 15:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Rokkafellah ==

{{User|Rokkafellah}} - On [[Armenian Genocide]]. To put it mildly... Removes entire sections and sources, pushes denialist POV, adds non-neutral unsourced edits. Previously proposed renaming the article to 'Armenian Genocide Theory'. Here is the latest [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Armenian_Genocide&diff=245601445&oldid=245579090 change]. The article has been placed under 1RR per [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2/Proposed_decision Armenia-Azerbaijan 2] arbcom case. Rokkafellah has made 8 revers from Oct 12 - 15.  [[User:VartanM|VartanM]] ([[User talk:VartanM|talk]]) 06:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Blocked 24h for [[WP:DE|DE]]. [[User:MaxSem|Max<span style="font-size:large;">''S''</span>em]]<sup>([[User talk:MaxSem|Han shot first!]])</sup> 06:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Disruption at [[WP:AN3RR]] ==

{{resolved|User indef-blocked. —[[User:TravisTX|<font face="Verdana" color="#2F335F">Travis</font>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<font color="#888888" size="-1"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 15:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)}}

{{userlinks|Boonsan}} is repeatedly removing a report from the 3RR noticeboard after being told not to: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=245660644&oldid=245659079], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=245661171&oldid=245660815], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=245661791&oldid=245661327], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=245662945&oldid=245662397], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=245662945&oldid=245662397]. I think we need a block for disruption or some other method of preventing this disruption. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 13:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Looking at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&action=history the history] it looks like he's broken 3RR on the 3RR noticeboard, going to 6/7RR instead. Block needed IMO. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 13:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Blocked by FisherQueen. Kind of ironic, getting blocked because you edit warred at AN3RR. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 13:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::That almost deserves a place on [[Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars]] --[[User:Nate1481|Nate]][[User talk:Nate1481|14]][[Special:Contributions/Nate1481|81]] 14:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::What else but from an edit war over a nationalistic/<s>Balkins</s> Balkans (ha! I thought that looked odd!) topic. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 14:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::If this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Onorem#Hi_.282.29] is serious, maybe 24 hours isn't enough? [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 14:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

{{user5|58.169.182.48}}? <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 14:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm tempted to say extend the block on Boonsan to indef... [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 14:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The block should be indef. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 14:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Considering those were essentially his only edits, I wonder if he's someone else...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 14:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Checkuser time? Could be a joe job, or just a troll trying to be clever.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 14:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Based on the fact that he was removing the "[[User:124.185.148.41|124.185.148.41]] reported by [[User:Uky123|Uky123]]" report, I think he is {{user|124.185.148.41}}. BOTH [http://www.ip-adress.com/ipaddresstolocation/ IP addresses] go to Brisbane, Australia. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 14:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Considering the multiple personal attacks in his [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Boonsan current] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:DeletedContributions/Boonsan deleted] contributions, I’m inclined to make it indef. —[[User:TravisTX|<font face="Verdana" color="#2F335F">Travis</font>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<font color="#888888" size="-1"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Endorse''' indef-block. [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 15:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''[[WP:SNOW]]''', I think. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 15:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' indef. To me, Boonsan's contribs look like those of a sleeper sock. [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 15:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' indef-block. The user was causing trouble. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Endorse''' but also perhaps run a checkuser...finding the 3RR page is kind of a feat for a person with virtually no edits.... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 16:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
== Something ain't right here. ==

[[Special:Contributions/Marshall_Williams2]]
# 15:56, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) Nm User talk:Sexual vanilla ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly)  (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:55, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Girly1024 ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly) (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:54, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Pussy wetter ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly) (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:54, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Hooker5 ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly) (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:53, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Pussyboy ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly) (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:52, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) m User talk:Hooker kitten ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly) (top) [rollback] [rollback] [vandalism]
# 15:52, 14 October 2008 (hist) (diff) Nm User talk:Hooker kitten ‎ (Added welcome template to user talk page. using Friendly)

I welcomed all of these users. That's all. [[User:Marshall Williams2|Marshall T. Williams]] ([[User talk:Marshall Williams2|talk]]) 12:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This is obviously a kid, uploading blurry pictures of stuff around his house, making rather useless contributions to articles, spamming user talk pages, and using welcome templates on series of sexually themed usernames who last edited months ago. If we AGF, this is where an experienced user should channel this persons energy into being useful.  If we don't AGF, this is a waste of a lot of peoples time. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] ([[User talk:SchmuckyTheCat|talk]])

: I'm more concern about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=235913971 this incomplete prod] of his.  His work in mainspace is not that helpful. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 05:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::<s>On another, unrelated note, shouldn't four and possibly five of those users be blocked for violating the username policy? None of them are, as far as I can see...[[User:Gladys j cortez|Gladys J Cortez]] 07:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)</s> Crap. Nevermind. I has the dumb. (Aaaand--forgot to sign. I am going to sleep now before I make a further ass of myself in public.) [[User:Gladys j cortez|Gladys J Cortez]] 07:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:Sigh, yeah, another overzealous kid. It's clear from his edits that he's in middle school, and while [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ntsimp&diff=prev&oldid=243545540 this] gave me a bit of a chuckle (It's really not.), and he does make some decent edits, he should be told that WP isn't primarily for socializing. IFD all his images, and maybe take away access to automated tools so that it's not easy for him to try to delete [[Barack Obama]] and [[Stain]]. [[User:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Glass</span>]]'''[[User talk:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Cobra</span>]]''' 07:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Last I checked [[WP:AGF]] is not a suicide pact.  If this person continues to disrupt the community then they should be blocked.  [[User:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|talk]]) 07:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:And we need more pictures of dishwasher baskets on this site. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 10:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I didn't know he was from San Jose ... he has a picture of the HP Pavillion on his userpage ... <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 12:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Nothing like telegraphing your whereabouts. Presumably he'll have the good sense not to list his parents' address and phone number on his user page. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Especially since I already know what their truck and dishwasher basket look like...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 13:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::There can't be all that many red Ford trucks in San Jose, right? At least the photo did not include (1) the license plate and (2) the photographer's reflection. I could go there myself to investigate, but I don't know the way to San Jose. I may go wrong and lose my way. :( [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 13:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I know the way to use ebay, though...does that count? --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 13:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Virtually. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 14:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Hey, I wonder if I could get a red Ford pickup on eBay? I could make it a bundle of contradictions, with a gunrack in the back and a rebel flag license plate in front, and peace symbols and rainbow stickers everywhere. The perfect vehicle for any "California Redneck". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 14:09, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Or the average [[Eagles (band)|Eagles]] fan. — [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 16:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:(outdent) <small>Note: I hope the humour in my HP Pavillion comment didn't go to far over anyone's head.  It was a picture of ''an'' HP Pavillion computer, and not ''the'' HP Pavillion where the San Jose Sharks play ...</small> :P <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 17:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
: PS: Here's your red pickup on eBay[http://cgi.ebay.ca/Ford-F-350_W0QQitemZ200261693929QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200261693929&_trkparms=72%3A792%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1309&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14] <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 17:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Shazam! Thanks fer the tip! Now all I gotta do is see if they'll take a personal check. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 18:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I think your check has to be delivered in a dishwasher basket. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 19:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Money laundering? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 22:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Isn't that why the last CEO of HP was canned? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 23:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Aha! The plot thickens. Or something's thickening. Maybe it's the dishwasher detergent. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 23:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Staying on topic, I notified him about this.  Perhaps someone would be willing to adopt him? -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 23:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I welcomed all of these users. That's all. [[User:Marshall Williams2|Marshall T. Williams]] ([[User talk:Marshall Williams2|talk]]) 12:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Any reason you chose ''those'' users? If you want to welcome actual new users, click the "my contributions" link at the top of the screen, click the "Show contributions of new accounts only" button and voila!...you have new users. It's considered good practice to wait until they edit to welcome them...and not to add welcome templates to obvious username violations. If you need help...feel free to contact me or anyone else on this thread... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:12, 16 October 
2008 (UTC)

:::(Sigh)... I'm sorry for being such a hassle. Now that I have more experience, I will use Wikipedia more "correctly." And BTW, I'm in high school now. <font color="Green">'''''How may I serve you?'''''</font> [[User:Marshall Williams2|<font color="#007FFF">'''Marshall Williams2'''</font>]] 02:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

== Joe the Plumber ==

{{Resolved|1=Express your opinion at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Wurzelbacher]], not here.  <b>[[User:Jauerback|Jauerback]]</b><sup>[[User talk:Jauerback|dude?]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Jauerback|dude.]]</sub> 18:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Can someone please semi-protect this new BLP? It's gotten a lot of problem edits from IPs. [[User talk:Crotalus horridus|<b style="color:#1111AA; font-family:monospace, monospace;">***&nbsp;Crotalus&nbsp;***</b>]] 02:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Speedy deleted [[WP:CSD#A7]], a classic [[WP:BLP1E]]. --[[User:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#0000FF">Rodhull</span>]][[User_talk:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#FF0000">andemu</span>]] 02:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::I would not go that far, but I think a merge to [[United States presidential election debates, 2008]] should be considered. Keep in mind that a lot of people watching the debate may search for this term. [[User talk:Crotalus horridus|<b style="color:#1111AA; font-family:monospace, monospace;">***&nbsp;Crotalus&nbsp;***</b>]] 02:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Resolved, I think. Any experienced Wikipedia user will be able to find the mergeable information in the history behind the protected redirect. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Or not any more...the previously-deleted history was just restored, and then the entire history was just deleted, all since the AfD close. Oh well. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Speedy delete?? Check out this [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=%22joe+the+plumber%22&btnG=Search+News Google News] search.  The guy is already more notable than 90%+ of the biographies on Wikipedia.  If this is to be deleted, it should be for AfD, and I believe the speedy and the associated wheel war to be wholly inappropriate. BLP1E notwithstanding, the guy has already been the subject of significant coverage in a debate watched by tens of millions, and has and will continue to be the subject of biographies like [http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/15/politics/fromtheroad/entry4525216.shtml this one]. At the risk of [[WP:CRYSTAL]]ling, you can bet this guy is going to make the news rounds, etc. Our readers will want to know who he is and to the extent we have info from reliable sources we should include it.[[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 04:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::We can cut down on process wonkery, please. So far he's only notable for being mentioned in a presidential debate 11 times. Classic [[WP:BLP1E]]. And yes, you are [[WP:CRYSTAL]]-balling. —'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">kur</span>]][[User talk:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">ykh</span>]]</span>''' 04:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Fine, let's stick to the present.  In addition to the short biography I already linked, he's been interviewed by [http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/joe-the-plumber-stars-in-debate-20081016-5231.html Fox News] and [http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ha9qKZFKzFvH74G3c5PxRG_lHRIAD93RA62O0 the AP].  This easily meets the bar and certainly merits time for an article to develop and an AfD to decide the article's fate.  The idea that we "can't assert notability" about him is ludicrous. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 04:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::No it does not. You don't suddenly become notable because of an interview on Fox News or the AP. He is ultimately ''known'' for only one event. That is not notability, and it doesn't translate into notability. —'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">kur</span>]][[User talk:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">ykh</span>]]</span>''' 04:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Before anyone asks, I support the current merger into the presidential debates article as the correct path to take. —'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">kur</span>]][[User talk:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">ykh</span>]]</span>''' 04:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::[[Wikipedia:NOT#NEWS]] is relevant here.<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span>]] ''[[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007#top|<span style="color:#191970;">(talk)</span>]] @ ''</span> 04:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::: Not News is not a speedy deletion criteria. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 04:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Where did I say it was a speedy deletion criteria?<span style="white-space:nowrap; font-family:Harlow Solid Italic;">[[User:Gonzo_fan2007|<span style="font-size:small; color:teal;"> « Gonzo fan2007</span>]] ''[[User talk:Gonzo_fan2007#top|<span style="color:#191970;">(talk)</span>]] @ ''</span> 04:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::: You didn't it might have made more sense if my comment had been not indented. It was more a general comment on the deletion log. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 05:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::So where do you want to go from here? Recreate the article, send it through AfD, only to reach the same result? Shouldn't we try to be more productive around here? —'''<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">[[User:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">kur</span>]][[User talk:Kurykh|<span style="color:#0000C0;">ykh</span>]]</span>''' 04:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::: Given that the debate article currently has more information about the individual than the original article did (or at least assuming there are no deleted difs also) that would be a waste of time. The most sensible thing to do for these articles is to let the dust settle, then think about merging or deletion or redirecting. Doing it in the middle of like this just wastes our time and is disruptive to people coming here for information (people seem to forget that we are trying to serve our readers here). But no, I would not suggest that going through the AfD at this time would be good (although I would prefer the redirects unprotected so if necessary we can easily redirect to a different section. This is a classic example of how using the tools just makes everything more difficult and creates drama). [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 05:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::I agree. Seems to be working fine; leave it for a week or three and then see if anyone still cares. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] [[User talk:Masamage|♫]] 05:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::::I think it should be in the presidential debates article.  This is attracting attentions because the presidential nominees brought it up multiple times and the media grabbed a hold of it.  This is no different than any other subject that is brought up and then forgotten( ie: the new voters opinions).  Put a sentence or two into the presidential debate article and leave it at that.  --[[User:Crohnie|<span style="color:purpled">'''Crohnie'''</span><span style="color:deeppink">'''Gal'''</span>]][[User talk:Crohnie|<span style="color:deepskyblue"><sup>Talk</sup></span>]] 12:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This article should not have been deleted. Joe the Plumber is on the front page of every news site this morning. Real information is emerging from encyclopedia-quality sources. Wikipedia should be gathering it into a coherent and balanced article, as we did for [[Debra Bartoshevich]], which was also nominated for speedy deletion. There is also a lot of wild speculation out there, our article could stem this. For example, from the [http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS Toledo Blade]: "Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber’s, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican." Please undelete this article. And if you think it should be in the presidential debates article, then why isn't there any information there? 14:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

We can [[United States presidential election debates, 2008#October 15: Third presidential debate (Hofstra University – Hempstead, New York)|read here]] that:

<blockquote>During the debate repeated references were made to Joe Wurzelbacher, aka "Joe the Plumber"[39]...

Initial searches of the Ohio database for licensed plumbing contractors does not find Wurzelbacher [45]</blockquote>

So, it is not clear that Wurzelbacher is a plumber at all. Also, it isn't clear to me why the entire section on the last presidential debates should be devoted to him. A lot of issues were discussed, ranging from Abortion, Health care, Ayers, etc. etc. [[User:Count Iblis|Count Iblis]] ([[User talk:Count Iblis|talk]]) 16:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
: You can always add additional information about abortion, health care, Ayers etc. Information about Wurzelbacher does not prevent information about other issues. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 16:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:He has his own article/ redirect interference
He has an article under [[Joseph Wurzelbacher]]. YET, Searches in wikipedia for Joe the Plumber or Joe Wurzelbacher both redirect to the 2008 presidential debates article, section on the third debate.  They should redirect to the bio article on the fellow.  
Additionally, no one has ascertained if he is also Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher (note the different spelling of the second letter in his last name), the actually registered Republican voter. (that info is from a sidebar to an article  from the Toledo Blade; I keep having my browsers freeze when I return to the site, so I'll let others get a more complete reference.  Also, all references to S.J. W.'s being a registered Republican are more generalized, and are second generation after that Toledo Blade article. [[User:Dogru144|Dogru144]] ([[User talk:Dogru144|talk]]) 16:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm honestly shocked that people think this guy should have his own article. Wow, borderline ridiculous. 15 minutes of fame guy at best (BLP1E). [[User:Wizardman|<span style="color:#060">'''''Wizardman'''''</span>]] 16:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: The proper thing to do in these situations is to actually let events play out and afterwords decide whether there is a BLP1E sort of situation. This method just creates drama and disruption. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 16:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:No kidding. Not to mention that amount of coverage in the debate article is insane itself. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 16:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Grsz, You are welcome to balance it out with other sourced content. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 16:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:A nine-day wonder, eight of which are media hype. [[WP:NOT#NEWS]]. --[[User:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#0000FF">Rodhull</span>]][[User_talk:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#FF0000">andemu</span>]] 16:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that I have redirected protected articles [[Joe the Plumber]] and [[Joe the plumber]] to [[Joe Wurzelbacher]] until this AfD is resolved. [[User:Oren0|Oren0]] ([[User talk:Oren0|talk]]) 18:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
=== Related block request ===
{{resolved|blocked by [[User:Rodhullandemu]]}}	 
Could someone block 68.165.249.62? The user is repeatedly inserting original research about Wurzelbacher and isn't responding to any attempts to communicate. Is well over 3RR. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 16:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Returning Vandal [[User talk:82.2.236.210]] ==

{{resolved|anon blocked for one month}}
*[[User talk:82.2.236.210]] - is a vandal on several pages, returning. Vandalized my user page as well. A lot of case history, known vandal Pioneer.  Please block. [[User:History2007|History2007]] ([[User talk:History2007|talk]]) 16:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::[[WP:AIV]] is the place report situations like this.  Blocked for 1 month anyway!  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 16:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
== Clarence Thomas ==

Posted to EncMstr's page asking for help: This page just got it's full-protect removed.  The other editor involved in the conflict is going to town inserting POV language and arguing his case.  He's removing all kinds of things instead of tagging them with {{cn}}.  It's above my paygrade to know how to deal with it.  But it seems abusive and disruptive as a mediation is already underway.  Can you look into it or post this in the appropriate place for another administrator to take a peak?  I'm trying not to violate 3RR and to avoid an edit war.  But I don't know what to do and most of the edits being made are one-sided so it's not really right that they just stay and the page gets locked down now. ([[User:Wallamoose|Wallamoose]] ([[User talk:Wallamoose|talk]]) 18:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

There is a vigorous content dispute happening at [[Clarence Thomas]].  I'm not sure what the appropriate response is though, but perhaps another admin would like to do something?  —[[user:EncMstr|EncMstr]] ([[user talk:EncMstr|talk]]) 19:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've tried already, without much success. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 19:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Those two again? (See [[WP:WQA]]) This may need an admin to press the "bang their heads together" button.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 19:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Button pressed x 2. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Clarence_Thomas&action=history article history] is a major train wreck and, hopefully, a little time off will get those two to quit. —[[User:TravisTX|<font face="Verdana" color="#2F335F">Travis</font>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<font color="#888888" size="-1"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 19:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: And, of course, the {{tl|unblock}} requests fly, with one of them up to a 4th request now.  Sigh. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] ([[User talk:TexasAndroid|talk]]) 20:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::{{Userblock|Wallamoose}} now prevented from editing their talk page for duration of the block. Unfortunate, but obviously necessary. — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 15:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::I've thought about bringing up a timed topic ban for the two of them and will be watching to see what happens when their blocks are up. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 15:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::Well. Now [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wallamoose&oldid=245756583#Boss_man this] is another example of [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT|refusing to get the point]]. (sigh) —[[User:TravisTX|<font face="Verdana" color="#2F335F">Travis</font>]][[User_talk:TravisTX|<font color="#888888" size="-1"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 21:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It is MY talk page. Am I violating a rule?  There seem to be a lot of them.  And sometimes they even apply. I don't check here frequently, so feel free to drop me a note. I just love getting fan mail!([[User:Wallamoose|Wallamoose]] ([[User talk:Wallamoose|talk]]) 23:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC))

== Banned user PoliticianTexas back again ==

As per [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/PoliticianTexas_(3rd)] and numerous discussions here at ANI, [[User:PoliticianTexas|PoliticianTexas]] has been community banned. He continues to sock as IPs here {{user|71.30.147.211}} (confirmed on the SSP page) and tonight, here as {{user|75.91.166.24}}. He makes the same edits to the same articles every time. 

I came in late to this one, so last night I checked out his changes and crossed them with the references he puts in, and found there's nothing to them. I have no idea why this user continues to make these changes to these pages, but he keeps coming back. Could an admin step in and possibly semi-protect the pages or block the IP? Thanks in advance. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 03:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Which pages are he targeting? -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 03:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: [[NMAA District 2-AAAA]] ‎and [[Española Valley High School]], it looks like. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 03:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, my link above didn't work. Correcting it now, thanks to HalfShadow for passing on the info. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 03:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm semi'ing.  If you have a list of PT IPs, get on the blower to a CU and ask if a rangeblock's feasible. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 03:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: [[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]] and [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]], thanks. It's this exact [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT|IDIDNTHEARTHAT]] attitude that got him banned in the first place, so I haven't been surprised to see him back again (and again, and again...). I [[WP:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/PoliticianTexas|asked about an IP range block]] at one of his RFCU's and was told that it wasn't possible due to the number of them (over a dozen in the last 6 weeks alone). [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 21:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

== Tylerdotcom13 - unacceptable block ==

{{resolved}}
Uhhh...  WTF.  {{vandal|Tylerdotcom13}} why was this vandalism-only account blocked for only 48 hours?  Please do note that the people being trolled by this vandal have a long history of being attacked.  This is '''obviously''' a throwaway sockpuppet used for harassment and there is absolutely NO need to allow this person to repeat the attacks a mere 2 days from now.  [[User:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|talk]]) 07:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:I would say the reason probably is that he started out with seemingly good intentions and then got angry when his article was deleted. The 48 hours was intended to stop his behavior and give him a chance to chill. If he starts again, report him to [[WP:AIV]] and quick action should be taken. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 08:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:: ...which is hardly a valid excuse.  

# 07:05, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:Shadowlynk ‎ (←Replaced content with 'faggocity')
# 07:04, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:DiverseMentality ‎ (←Replaced content with 'Freedom of speech bitch')
# 07:03, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:Shadowlynk ‎ (←Replaced content with 'douche')
# 07:03, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:DiverseMentality ‎ (←Replaced content with 'this man has sex with goats he gives them head')
# 07:02, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:Shadowlynk ‎
# 07:01, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:Anthony Appleyard ‎ (←Replaced content with 'You kill freedom of speech and fun This man fucks goats, I have proof')
# 07:00, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:DiverseMentality ‎ (←Replaced content with 'Get a life and stop supporting the Nazi faggot Shadowlynk')
# 06:58, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User:Shadowlynk ‎ (←Replaced content with 'Nazi Faggot go fuck your own face')
# 06:58, 16 October 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Shadowlynk ‎ (←Replaced content with 'Nazi Faggot, Go fuck your own face :)') 

:: ...anyone who behaves in this manner should be permanently blocked.  Period.  [[User:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|talk]]) 08:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I've asked [[User:SkierRMH]] as the blocking admin for input. FWIW I'd indef block. We neither need nor want editors who make those kinds of attacks. More grief than benefit IMHO. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 08:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Seems like it should have been an indef block, but I agree with Bugs; if he comes back, he'll be speedily blocked. I'm sure the blocking admin just erred on the side of caution, and I see no problem with that. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 11:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Uhhh... WTF.  Why didn't you go to the blocking admin first instead of trying to create maXX drama at AN/I? [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 14:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::If he vandalises again when he returns, he can be reblocked.  There is no impending doom from this situation.  Also, in the future, please post a [[WP:CIVIL]] note at the talk page of the admin who issued the block.  Running to ANI to shout "zOMG an admin fooked up again" isn't very helpful.  Although it is refreshing to see the complaint go in the direction of an admin being too "lenient".  99% of the time, the rediculous complaints here are about admins abusing their power, not using it cautiously and deliberatively!!! --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 14:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::: Ok, so the kid creates a page about himself.  It gets speedied.  He asks "nicely" about bringing it back a few times (which are not on this complaint).  It doesn't happen.  He goes on a teenaged-hormone-driven-Godzilla-rampage (watch for my upcoming essay: "WP:THDGR") against those who speedied, warned, or otherwise supported the deletion in a 7 minute timeframe.  Obviously this is '''not''' a vandal-only account, but one who sure didn't understand [[WP:NOTABLE]].  I'm sure he's better aware now.  Calling for a longer block is at the original point - well - inappropriate when you intentionally take the omitted part of the story away. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 15:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::48 hours is ok. If he vandalized again, he should be reblocked. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:(unindnet) I did explain my reasons to [[User talk:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] (which seem to be echoed above) - "Given that all of the stuff had taken place today within a 2 hour period, I tended to give the benefit of the doubt. I've watched the user page, and if there's one more warning after the 48 hours, I'll make it permanent. Thanks for keepin' an eye out :)"  
:And, I continue to stand by it - I've watched the user page, and if there's another complaint, appropritae measures will be taken. And thanks to [[User:Bwilkins|Bwilkins]] for fleshing out a bit better my initial rationale :) [[User:SkierRMH|<span style="color:ForestGreen">SkierRMH</span>]] ([[User_talk:SkierRMH|<span style="color:SaddleBrown">talk</span>]]) 20:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Administrators have discretion in choosing block length.  If the user returns to bad behavior they can be blocked again.  The additional work is very slight. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 20:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:If the user returns and is helpful, we gain a productive user. If the user returns and continues to be disruptive, we simply reblock and lose nothing. Absent very persistent trouble or socking concerns, the difference in practice between short blocks and long blocks usually seems to approach nil. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 22:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
== TTN mass nominating articles for deletion with the exact same wording ==

I don’t know what this guy has against fictional characters and television episodes, but every day he makes a spurt of deletion nominations with literally the same wording (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&contribs=user&target=TTN&namespace=4 here]).  Surely the exact same wording cannot apply to every single article on a fictional character or television episode?  I find this style insulting to those who wrote the articles as it says, “Sorry, but I don’t have to consider the individual merits of the articles you worked on or help look for sources as every character or episode article I see is the same and must be redirected or deleted.”  And to top things off the only edits to actual articles I see (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=500&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=TTN&namespace=0&year=&month=-1 here]) are slapping on deletion boxes, merge boxes, or just going ahead and redirecting them.  WTH?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.3.1.130|63.3.1.130]] ([[User talk:63.3.1.130|talk]]) 16:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:<s>Because it has been 6 months since TTN has been placed on editing restrictions by ArbCom, and because he obviously feels that he now has the right to go back to the exact same behavior that led to the arbcom sanctions listed here: [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2#Remedies]]  Based on the return of the '''exact behavior that led to these sanctions''' I propose, formally, that the community decides to '''return the same sanctions that recently expired, and to extend those sanctions indefinately.'''  What does everyone else think?  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 17:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</s>
::<s>Agree.</s> [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 17:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Block him immediately.''' [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 17:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::While I ''agree'' that most of those articles have no merits on their own and ''should'' be merged or deleted, I think his nominations are excessively [[WP:POINT|pointy]]; there's ''got'' to be a more constructive way to [[WP:FICTION|try and establish notability guidelines for works of fiction]]. Considering that this is only the repetition of behavior that caused a restriction in the past, I would consider it appropriate to return those restrictions (per [[WP:GAMING]]). &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 17:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::<s>Actually, I didn't do so because he is not currently under restrictions. They technically expired 6 months after the ArbCom ruling, which was March 10, 2008, so he has been "free" from sanctions since September 10, 2008. Therefore, I wanted to get a clear go ahead from the community before blocking, so that we have covered all of the bases, and we are sure that we are ready to take the next step. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 17:31, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</s> :::::Just to clarify, the reason for the restriction was edit warring over redirects, not the actual actions of merging, redirecting, or nominating AfDs. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There is already a request for extension [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_extension:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FEpisodes_and_characters_2|here]]. [[User:TTN|TTN]] ([[User talk:TTN|talk]]) 17:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Block and extend sanctions immediately. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 17:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Someone has already [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Request_for_extension:_Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration.2FEpisodes_and_characters_2 requested] an extension of TTN's prohibitions, but its been pointed out that what TTN is doing is not the same as his actions before: he has followed [[WP:BRD]] appropriately for all of these and is neither edit warring nor using ''fait accompli'' tactics that he was admonished for.  This is not the same behavior, and even a prelim review of the extension suggests that its the fact that this is not TTN's fault, but instead those that cannot compromise in defining better standards for fictional elements (My attempt to get a compromise [[WP:FICT]] in place failed because 25% thought it too harse, the other 25% too loose).  TTN is being used as a scapegoat and easy target in light of the case, which also noted a general community sanction to get people to work towards compromise and that has not happened.  --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 17:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Going right back to the same behavior you just got out of proverbial "jail" for when your sanctions expire isn't a sign of being here to benefit Wikipedia, if the old behavior was judged to be harmful to the encyclopedia (hence the sanctions). If TTN is here for Wikipedia he should immediately stop doing these until the current RFAR request is closed one way or the other. If not, an enforced community break from deletion and redirection is probably a good idea. The stupid massive ongoing drama he triggers is too destructive. [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 17:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:I, for one, happen to agree with TNN's philosophy on these sort of crufty, fictional articles. TNN isn't breaking policy and his restriction was over redirects, as stated above. Unless someone can show how this is against current policy, no action should be taken. [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 17:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*Are we serious?  There is an ongoing request for extension where at least one arb has said he isn't doing the same behavior that lead to sanctions.  the previous request for clarification was archived with the same outcome.  Don't block him.  [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 17:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
**Regardless of the specific tools being used, TTN is attempting to use the availible tools to force his own, personal view of what Wikipedia policy should be towards articles such as these.  The volume and number of the nominations and the obvious fact that each nomination is not carefully considered shows that TTN is simply looking to eliminate an entire class of articles.  Now, it is true that the community has not made any consensus one way or the other on how to deal with these articles, and there '''may be''' good reasons for most of these to be deleted, however the act of making policy through massive AFDs, which is what this ammounts to, is exactly the same as making policies through massive redirects.  The redirect tactic didn't work for TTN last time, so he is trying a new route.  However, the actual behavior, which is attempting to personally create Wikipedia policy where the community has not done so, is the main problem.  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 17:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
***There is no mandate that we are forced to consider and contemplate one bit of trivia and plot summary differently from another bit of trivia and plot summary. What do you suggest he do? Write an individual summary noting the nuances separating [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Maya_Gallo]] from [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nina_Van_Horn]]? Honestly, if people don't like this behavior of nomination they can file an RfC to see the community input, not ask for a bad from An/I because articles that are outside our inclusion criteria are being considered for deletion. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
***I find it very difficult to accept the use of BRD and AFD as means to "force" one's views.  These are all means to discussion.  Now, I will admit that a step that usually is considered (but by no means required) is to discuss a redirect or a possibility of deletion on the article talk page.  The problem is that when you deal with fiction you will encounter mini-cabals of editors that will defend such articles, making it impossible to get consensus even if the article fails policies.  Bringing such articles to AFD as a first step may seem aggressive, but it also gets the participation of a much larger group of editors involved thus getting better consensus of the issues.  Unfortunately, we lack any other type of process that is meant to gain larger input than just those that watch an article's page regularly (which is why AFD is sometimes called Articles for Discussion).  There's no required process that TTN is violating here, it just may speak badly of the lack of process that we have for better discussion of such articles.  Should TTN be blocked for that?  Not unless everyone else that uses them is too. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 18:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
It's sad to see this kind of thing coming to ANI, especially being supported an admin that I generally respect. '''It is not TTN's fault that there are tens of thousands of bad articles on Wikipedia.''' His AFD nominations are generally on target, and the results of his AFDs are generally to merge, redirect, or delete. If the only way that policy can be formed in this area is by running enought stuff through AFD to generate changes to [[WP:OUTCOMES]], that's sad, but nothing to block an editor for. TTN is not violating any policies or guidelines, and is not deserving of even a short block, much less a ban.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 17:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:Is it just me, or has this board (perhaps others) become tattle boards to try to get TTN in trouble? I've seen many of his video game nominations: and the articles are indeed cruft, clutter, game guide content, etc...in many cases. He can't redirect: because people will just undo it, and then tattle on him. But he can't put them in AFD either apparently, because people have had issues with him in the past. Frankly, I think people need to settle down. Other people nominate numerous articles for deletion, but they don't get tattled on. I believe this is a matter of "TTN has past issues, so let's just report it everytime he nominates things", which is a bit wrong. Also to comment about what Jayron said: I highly doubt TTN is trying to make up policies. There is '''already''' policies that back up what he nominates. He states what policies the article violates, and in most cases he is right. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 18:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::No, it's not just you at all. I really think that we need to consider establishing some kind of sanction for filing ANI or Arbcom reports on this topic. The block and sanction requests cause more trouble than the AFDs.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 18:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
* In my humble opinion, the suggested sanctions in this thread are slightly excessive. If TTN is going to be restricted, it should be to limit the number of AfDs he is allowed to file in any 24 hour period to a reasonable number, perhaps 5 or 6. Similarly, the number of redirects could also be limited, if deemed necessary. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 18:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*It's worth noting that, aside from these AfDs, TTN continues to continue his pattern of willy-nilly, discussion-free merging.  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Man_Who_Killed_Batman&diff=prev&oldid=244792054] (an article he had previously made into a redirect and was specifically named in the last arbcom decision against him) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Robin%27s_Reckoning&diff=prev&oldid=244791997] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Prophecy_of_Doom&diff=prev&oldid=244791902] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prophecy_of_Doom&diff=prev&oldid=244791852] &c. &c. &c.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 18:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
**I'm not going to waste my time counting any more, but it looks like in the last 24 hours alone, he's redirected over two dozen articles without a word of discussion on any.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 18:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
***A good chuck of which, now that I'm checking, recently went through AfD as kept from lack of consensus.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 18:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
****I'm having trouble finding the policy that says redirection is a crime. Can you point it out for me? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*****TTN has been blocked in the past for disruptive patterns of behavior, which continue unabated.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 19:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:It's apparently a crime to redirect, because TTN has had issues in the past. If it was any other editor: it would probably go unnoticed. [[User:RobJ1981|RobJ1981]] ([[User talk:RobJ1981|talk]]) 18:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, nearly all of ''my'' hundreds (over a thousand?) of bold-mergers and bold-redirects went unnoticed, so it really must be TTN's name that makes bold-mergers and bold-redirects a crime. &ndash; [[User:Sgeureka|sgeureka]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sgeureka|t]]•[[Special:Contributions/Sgeureka|c]]</sup> 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Redirects aren't a crime, obviously, but the mass removal of content that targets a very narrow range of communities is disruptive--particularly when it is an editor's entire ''raison d'être''.  I might feel differently if I had ever seen TTN do the work to provide references for ''any'' article or series of articles, anywhere, but he takes advantage of the fact that improving articles is quite a bit harder than blanking it with a redirect template, and keeping up with his redirects and AfDs would be a full time Wiki-job, leaving little left to ''actually do the work''.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 19:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::Especially if the redirected articles already had a <s>consensus to keep at AfD</s> discussion at AfD with no consensus to delete.[[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 19:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::So one editor imposes his will, and everyone cries, "What shall we do? What shall we do?" This is an all-too familiar theme in wikipedia. Bullies get their way. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 19:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Bugs, you and I agree on a lot, but you're WAY off base here. I suggest everybody read Thebainer's suggestion of where the fault lies at [[WP:RfArb]], where this issue is currently.  This smacks of forum shopping and [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]. I suggest the editors on the eternal crusade stop asking [[Thomas Beckett|Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?]] and start working WITH TTN, not against him. 19:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That's great, except TTN's pattern of behavior is essentially one of directing the work of other editors, not even remotely in any way "working with them".  As I said, if TTN ''ever'' worked to improve an article in a way that wasn't deleting something, or nominating it for deletion, or pointing out that someone (someone else, naturally) needs to come in and provide references, not in time, but NOW, then yeah, there would be grounds for that, but there isn't.  Working "with" TTN is essentially agreeing to work "for" him.  [[User:Fordmadoxfraud|Ford MF]] ([[User talk:Fordmadoxfraud|talk]]) 19:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Basically the Betacommand approach: "I'm following policy, therefore no discussion is needed - nor wanted, as that will slow me down from my appointed deletionist mission." [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 19:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

::The AfDs I spot checked looked ok, didn't see a snowy keep (or more than one or two keep comments throughout), lots of delete comments, sometimes merge comments instead. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 19:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*I honestly feel that we would benefit from a RFC/U on TTN.  Enough people feel that his behavior (rather than the underlying content dispute) is unacceptable that we should provide a venue for them to give feedback.  I'm wholeheartedly against (and so, evidently, are the arbs who commented on the requests for clarification/extension) just using AN/I to thwack TTN for what some editors feel is bad behavior, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the underlying problems with his methods.  the place to sort out a thorny content/conduct dispute is RFC, not Arbcom and not here.  I don't want this to turn into an inclusionist/deletionist back and forth, because that benefits NO ONE.  But I don't want to dismiss the concerns here as "content dispute".  the right answer is an RFC. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 19:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::I doubt that we'll get any new insight into TTN/deletionist/inclusionist conflict, but we can certainly try. &ndash; [[User:Sgeureka|sgeureka]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sgeureka|t]]•[[Special:Contributions/Sgeureka|c]]</sup> 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It would be better than coming here and riling up people with the Scarlet "[[The Scarlet Letter|D]]" on his chest from that arbcom case. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 19:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
* There is finally an effective means to rid wikipedia of bad fiction articles with community consensus (AfD), and people are still badmouthing TTN to arbcom and AN/I in the hope to get him sanctioned again (even the first sanction was not as widely supported as some editors wish to believe). Is there also the possibility that not TTN is the problem, but the unwillingness of editors to collaborate outside of AfD (accept mergers and redirects or improve the articles to justify as a [[WP:SPINOUT]]) to prevent TTN's need to take those bad articles to AfD to get them merged/redirected/deleted just the same? Oh, by the way, wikipedia is a voluntary projects, and just like everyone has the right to ''add'' content only, all editors have the right to concentrate on ''removing'' content that is not inline with policies and guidelines. &ndash; [[User:Sgeureka|sgeureka]] <sup>[[User_talk:Sgeureka|t]]•[[Special:Contributions/Sgeureka|c]]</sup> 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
: I agree.  If TTN has an issue with "bad" articles, he should note his legitimate concerns on the articles' talk pages.  If the editors who created the content (or otherwise wish to retain it) don't respond to those legitimate concerns, TTN should be free to nominate for AfD without being sanctioned.  On the other hand, if TNN is not attempting to engage the editors of the content he obhects to before mass nominating for AfD, that is a different story...[[User:Rlendog|Rlendog]] ([[User talk:Rlendog|talk]]) 20:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

A modest proposal: if TTN is mass-nominating articles for deletion, and most of these are ending up being kept, then he's being disruptive, wasting a lot of editor time, and he should be asked to stop. (I find it a little strange that the community doesn't seem to agree that what he's doing is a problem, yet the proposed solution is to block him. If we aren't agreed, his behavior is marginal, not clearly offensive, and so response should be measured, not abrupt.) On the other hand, if most of these AfDs result in delete, he's serving the project, as long as the AfDs themselves don't show disruptive behavior. I find it a bit refreshing if the nominator sits back and doesn't comment any more, beyond his original reason, letting the community decide. It's tendentious argument at AfD that can be so poisonous. I'll note that if the nominator can mass-nominate with identical reason given, surely !voters can comment with the same comment. Lots of complaints were registered about [[User:Kmweber]] for that, but it was always found to be acceptable.

As to redirects, they are less disruptive than AfDs. It's an ordinary editorial decision. Again, his behavior in that process would be the issue: does he edit war (and BRD isn't edit warring)? Is he uncivil? Being "unresponsive," as some charged, is not offensive in itself. He puts his time where he thinks it's important. No response is not an uncivil response. If he reverts repeated without discussion, that's not lack of responsiveness, it's edit warring. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 20:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::Being unresponsive '''is uncivil'''. It's the same as saying "F.U." to the questioner. The non-response says the questioner is inferior and thus unworthy of spending time responding to. "He puts his time where he thinks it's important." Responding to a question thus is "not important" - because the questioner is "not important" - because only TTN's view matters. How is that kind of behavior "civil"? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 20:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:I've noted that topics concerning TTN tend to get somewhat lengthy, if not heated. Perhaps a page concerning this should be created and a redirect placed here if only to give everyone more elbow room? [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 20:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::This is nowhere near the size of the CENSEI ''megillah'' that developed here and stayed on this page.

*I opened some of these AfDs at random. Many are unanimous "delete"s so far ([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sir Roysten Merchant]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jill Tyrell]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nancy Beebe]]). Based on these and on what I have read here, I see no problems with TTN's nominations. If people disagree with them they can say so in the AfDs. I don't understand what all the fuss is about and I am, frankly, most astonished about Baseball Bugs' "Block him immediately" comment. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sandstein|<span style="color:white;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">'''&nbsp;Sandstein&nbsp;'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
**It was stated that he was doing something he had been warned not to do. If that is true, then he should be blocked immediately for misbehavior. If not, then that's another story. The opinion on whether he's behaving properly seems to be mixed. However, if he won't answer fair questions, then he's being uncivil, and a block might effect an attitude adjustment - or at least get him to answer. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 20:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
***That's got a pretty big chain of unrevealed assumptions there.  We have to assume that he was actually ''doing'' what he was warned not to do.  We have to assume the warning came in good faith and from a neutral party.  We have to assume that the matter at hand is something worth blocking.  And, frankly, I don't agree with the "block because I think he has a 'tude" viewpoint.  He isn't 13.  We aren't effecting discipline here.  I don't think a bold "block him immediately" was the right response to the stated complaint. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 21:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
****On the contrary, he should be nominated for adminship, since he apparently knows what's best. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 21:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*****Don't make this worse.  He doesn't need a nobel prize.  I'm just suggesting that coming to AN/I and treating his malfeasance as a certainty isn't the way to go. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
** I'd also note that TTN is not only nominating for deletion and redirecting, he's also placing merge tags ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pok%C3%A9mon_FireRed_and_LeafGreen&diff=prev&oldid=244793870 example from today]) which is hardly unilateral. As Sandstein says above, most of the AfDs seem to be reasonable, and as for the redirects - well, when I see TTN redirecting well-sourced articles with good third-party references and real-world notability, then I'll agree with the editors who repeatedly bring this to the drama boards. [[User talk:Black Kite|<b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b>]] 21:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
The thing is his exactly samely worded noms suggest that he is just indiscriminately nominating articles on fictional characters and television episodes which clearly he and a few others just do not like and that can/should be merged redirected instead.  He is also nominating so many articles that it is overwhelming the deletion debate area.  And he is showing no signs of actually checking for sources first.  It actually takes some time to search for sources and incorporate them into articles.  When he has done that?  When he found sources and added them to articles?  If people revert his redirects, gee, than maybe it’s because the consensus is that the articles are worthy and hey it seems only a portion of us even know about and find the deletion debates that only seem to last for a few days anyway.  How does his cookie cutter nominations followed bye the same handful of others that flock to his discussions who slap down similarly repetitive “delete per TTN” or “delete as fancruft” nonsense rapidly across whatever debates this guy starts actually reflect what the community wants?  At least the Protonk has the occasional keep worked in or when he argues to delete shows evidence of having looked for sources, but few of those who agree with him seem to make that effort to be objective and treat these discussions as individuals.  What “contribution” do we get from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sir_Roysten_Merchant&diff=prev&oldid=244822105], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nancy_Beebe&diff=prev&oldid=244822391], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jill_Tyrell&diff=prev&oldid=244822458], and so on?  The same rapid fire posts that show no evidence of actually trying to find sources or offering anything new to the conversation.  It’s like that from most of TTN’s defenders.  He makes the same copy and paste nomination; a few of his allies show up and make the same copy and paste agreements with him (and what‘s classic is I get warned by someone who himself made a handful of copy and paste deletes not to make copy and paste keeps--what a farce!), maybe someone offers a counterpoint and actually provides sources or makes an effort to improve the article, but otherwise the same big brothers deciding for us is simply not right.  Are we here to build an encyclopedia or not?  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/63.3.1.2|63.3.1.2]] ([[User talk:63.3.1.2|talk]]) 21:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*I think you forgot that you should be on 63.3.1.130, right?  Because there isn't [[Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/63.3.1.1_(2nd)|a connection between those two IP's]], right?  :) [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 21:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, this "vanishing" business is trickier than one would think. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 21:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::If anyone can prove this particular shitstorm was caused by our vanished friend, I think it's a good argument for a nice long rangeblock.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 22:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Oh I don't know.  '''Someone''' was going to raise the issue eventually.  Like I said above, if people are pissed about TTN's conduct, then we should have a RFC/U, not a backdoor attempt at a topic ban because he used to edit war over redirects and mergers. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Do we have any numbers about how his AFDs shake out? if they are 90% KEEP then he needs to reconsider what he's doing but if they are 90% delete, well.... --[[User:Cameron Scott|Cameron Scott]] ([[User talk:Cameron Scott|talk]]) 22:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''  I looked over the articles he put up for AfD, and they seem to deem that treatment.  Most of the articles IMHO fail WP:Notability.  What TTN does is another segment of keep WP clean.  I, for example hit new articles with speedy delete tags, TTN just catches the articles further along the process, and puts them up for AfD.  So, TTN is a cleanup warrior, not a vandal. [[User:Paranormal Skeptic|Paranormal Skeptic]] ([[User talk:Paranormal Skeptic|talk]]) 23:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Redact my original proposal for sanctions''' After spending lots of time reviewing the entire situation, and reading people's comments, I no longer believe that TTN is commiting any real disruption worth sanctions at this time.  I find his single-minded obsession with deleting the episode and character articles perplexing, but all of his nominations I agree should probably be deleted or merged into their parent articles.  In the end, even though he is on this extensive mission, he has not as yet really done anything that I don't end up agreeing with.  I think its easy to, given the history of this conflict, misinterpret the situation, but none of the individual actions he has taken has crossed the line.  I apologize for perhaps starting the controversy this time, but I have carefully reconsidered my position.  I don't really support his mission, but I also don't see any harm in it... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 23:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
**If you're OK with it, then that's the end of it. Leave him unblocked. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 23:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''No reason to block him'''. I've taken part in a few AfDs he has nominated. I found the nominations appropriate, and common closure is usually '''merge/redirect''', sometimes '''delete'''. Examples:[[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Baby_Doll_(Batman:_The_Animated_Series)]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cad_Lackey]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dana_Tan]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Defensor_(Transformers)]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Doz]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hexadecimal_(character)]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LarryBoy]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Marty_Funkhouser]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ro_Rowen]], [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tasp]]. The inclusionists that disagree with him are tying to subvert the AfD process by blocking or banning him, a typical ''kill the messenger'' reaction. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 01:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

* I might not see eye to eye with [[User:TTN]], but I feel someone should offer a little balance. Disagree with his content decisions, but he isn't doing anything wrong. It would be different if he were breaking policy, ignoring warnings, and playing [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]]... or abusing the [[WP:3RR]]. But he isn't. Moreover, he's using the [[WP:BRD]] process as designed. First he boldly merges or boldly redirects. If someone reverts, he starts a merge or deletion discussion. Even if I don't agree with him all of the time, there's usually a consensus for deleting, redirecting, or merging... suggesting that he's not being reckless, let alone malicious. I think we should [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]. And there is no damage. People are entirely free to contest his edits, or his suggestions at discussion pages, and they often do. If he's acting in good faith and doing no damage, then what's the problem? [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 02:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

*To be honest, this was one of the reasons that I started the original Request for Clarification shortly after his restriction ended. I was concerned that TTN was ramping up activity in the arena of content removal again, and was hoping to get a clear indication from Arbcom on this, as they put the original restriction in place. First let me be clear that each action that TTN does, in isolation, I don't have a problem with. The mechanisms of raising AfDs, suggesting redirects and tagging potential mergis is part of the article peer review that makes WP work as a content development mechanism. Most of his statements are sensible, and most of his AfD suggestions are sound. So where does the trouble lie? Well, as I've always said, it's in the throughput. TTN does a lot of work in the content cleanup space, raising a large number of AfDs (I think it's been 30 in 24 hours, but I could be wrong) doing a lot of tagging and creating large numbers of redirects. It's this large volume of work that causes concern with other editors, and which I'd really encourage him to ease up on. To be clear, I don't see blocking as a solution here, because I don't think it's the appropriate tool. Instead, I'd ask TTN to slow down, to feed his work into the system at a slower rate and to be willing to liase with other editors to ensure that he works at a pace everyone feels comfortable with. Many thanks, '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 15:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
:lolwut?  Telling him to slow down the article cleaning process is akin to asking a vandal-guardian to slow down the reverts he/she does, or a new-page patroller to slow down on the db-''tag''ing of articles.  I know on an average day I tag 20 articles for speedy delete, and revert another 40 changes.  Should I slow down? [[User:Paranormal Skeptic|Paranormal Skeptic]] ([[User talk:Paranormal Skeptic|talk]]) 16:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::That's not a like-for-like comparison. Recent changes/New pages patrol is one area, with a high level of continuous edits happening. Merges, reverts and AfDs have a much lower volume. In a WP workday, I can easily raise 30 or 40 CSDs on NPP. I'd be alarmed if I was raising the same volume of AfDs, and I'd be concerned that I was flooding the process if I did. Hope this makes sense. '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 17:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
* I just would like to see him follow BLD and ''discuss'' things more.  When someone undoes a redirect of his, he generally just moves to AfD without discussion.  When I merged more into an article than he did after a merge AfD result, he undid it without comment. BLD indicates its worth being bold if you think it's not controversial.  If you ''know'' it's controversial (and undoing a good faith edit likely is) then discussion is the right thing.... [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 03:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
** But AFD is a discussion mechanism; it just opens it up to more people than just those who watch the page (which will generally have a bias against deletion).  --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] 04:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
*** Bingo. To reinforce Masem's point, it's right there in the first ten words of [[WP:AFD]]: "'''AFD is where Wikipedians discuss''' whether an article should be deleted". If the AFD reaches a consensus for deletion, there's no harm because everyone agrees the article doesn't belong here. And if the AFD doesn't reach a consensus, then there's no harm because the article continues to exist. For that reason, AFD is generally a good process, and it generally achieves a good result. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 07:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
****So are you all saying that AfD is the right place to bring redirect disputes?  Really?  I trust you both, but I've seen people dragged through the mud for bringing a redirect discussion (where they want to undo the redirect) to AfD.  But I'll try it and point to this discussion if you both think that's how it is supposed to work.  Let me know.  [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 14:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
***** You should only bring an article to AFD if you believe in good faith that the article fails our content guidelines and policies. But if you do, remember that it begins a discussion. It doesn't always mean deletion. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 15:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
******So one side of the discussion has a mechanism to involve others, even when their (apparent) prefered outcome isn't to delete.  But the other part of this discussion doesn't have that outlet?  Ick. Historically not a problem because people don't normally bring a redirect discussion straight to AfD.  But TTN is doing it on a massive scale... [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 16:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
******* You don't need to have a discussion to keep an article. That happens naturally, with dozens of editors improving it to meet our guidelines and policies, to rule out any sound reason for deletion. I'm not sure I understand what an "article for keep" discussion would accomplish, although there are mechanisms like peer review and the rescue tag to help improve articles that are in trouble. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 20:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
The nomination reason TTN keeps using is sometimes outright incorrect. Typically, he will state that the article consists of nothing but plot summary and original research. Well, for most of the articles he nominates, the plot summary may make up the majority of the article. But sentences regarding which actor played the character, are neither. An AFD nominator has an obligation to check that the assertions in the nomination are true, and TTN is not doing that. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 06:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
*However, for the most part, his nominations are decent. If he merges or redirects it just gets reverted, so he needs something to demonstrate a consensus. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 15:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
**Just to beat the dead horse: Other editorial decisions (to merge, delete, etc.) don't go to AfD.  Why does the "I want to redirect but I keep getting reverted" go to AfD?  Isn't there something wrong with doing that without any attempt at communication?  [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 18:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
***Because it's the only avenue available. Generally the people that restore these redirects are anonymous IPs, and, no matter how you feel about anons, they are very difficult to communicate with. It's rarely possible to tell if messages on their talk pages are being read and ignored or simply going to some other cable modem user. Discussing a redirect on the talk page of an article is futile, as the people that read the talk page are generally restricted to those people that think its a worthwhile article. It's unfair to characterize the discussion as ''I want to redirect but I keep getting reverted''. It's generally more like ''This article is completely lacking in any characteristic that would permit it to be kept, but there is a group of editors that refuses to recognize that''. Should there be a better mechanism than AFD for getting a larger group of editors to discuss this? Certainly. Is it fair to criticize TTN for using the only effective mechanism that exists? Certainly not.&mdash;[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 18:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
** There's two sides to every dispute. For the "you keep reverting my redirect", there's the "you keep reverting my keep". AFD is "we can't agree whether to keep or redirect. can we get an independent opinion?" Usually the consensus will decide to keep or delete the article on its merits. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 20:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
***Agreed 100%.  But I ask again, is it acceptable to bring an article to AfD if you are on the "keep" side of that argument?  My understanding is that it isn't.  Heck, I don't think bringing it to AfD to try to pick between redirect and keep is considered acceptable.  Do you disagree?  I'm happy to try it. (note: I need to read kww's proposal which I haven't gotten to yet) [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 04:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
**** I think it's kind of general knowledge that AFDs are a good way to solicit feedback from a wide variety of people, and the arbcom decision reflects that. But at the same time, I think it's reserved for situations when someone has a good faith belief that the article should be deleted. I myself have PRODed articles, and had someone revert saying "take it to AFD". That was a reasonable way to settle it. If it really is inappropriate to nominate an article for AFD that you really just want to keep (which I'm pretty sure it is), then I think it's entirely fair to revert a redirect and say "take it to AFD". After all, it would be pretty [[WP:POINT]]y for someone to redirect *again* after someone said "if you insist this article shouldn't exist, let's have an AFD". (A merge is a different story though.) Some of that might just be my opinion though. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 05:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*****I think that's largely fair, and will take that approach in the future. [[User:Hobit|Hobit]] ([[User talk:Hobit|talk]]) 01:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Possible Password Hack ==

{{resolved|No admin action required}}
Around 3:30pm EST this afternoon (10/16) IP User:98.219.177.167 managed, in short time, to request my password to be changed (I had reported the anon to AIV for vandalism) while I was still logged in.  No damage was done, password was quickly changed to something else.

But, I am wondering, can an unrelated IP address request someone's password changed?  Is that actually possible and if so, what do I do to prevent it in the future.  I have the hashmark so that is working for me, but this has me spooked.  If all they can do is just request it, could I safely change the password back to previous? - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • October 16, 2008 @ 20:51</small>
:There's no need to change your password.  In fact, I think the email usually says something to the effect of "if you did not request this change, you can continue using your regular password."  Basically, someone tried to log-in as you, could not, so they tried to change the password which can only be done through the email attached to the account.  [[User:Metros|Metros]] ([[User talk:Metros|talk]]) 21:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::Very true, it's happened to me at least nine times and I have never had to change my password.  Just chalk it up to a vandals attempt at revenge.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 21:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Ah, cool.  Never had that happen before so I wasn't sure what to do.  Thanks Metros and JavierMC, I appericate it.  Take Care...<small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;">[[User:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#990000;background:#FFFFFF;">NeutralHomer</span>]] • [[User_talk:Neutralhomer|<span style="color:#000000;background:#FFFFFF;">Talk</span>]] • October 16, 2008 @ 21:15</small>

This looks like it may have been a {{user5|Gsnguy}} sockpuppet IP based on behavior - I have tagged the account.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 22:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Oh, fer crap...I thought we were rid of that little snert. :::sigh::: Don't people have anything better to do? [[User:Gladys j cortez|Gladys J Cortez]] 03:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Author adding own articles to Wikipedia ==

{{resolved|No admin action needed}}
User: Ap4dw appears to be adding his own articles to Wikipedia.  Here's a link to his contribution history.  That's what you'll find and not much else.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=Ap4dw&namespace=&year=&month=-1

It would be nice to update this user on how things work here as far as putting your own stuff up. Also, as his articles don't seem to be the most notable on the subjects in question I would suggest they be removed. For example his article is now the only one under "suggested reading" subheading for Bush v. Gore. His articles were also added to Clarence Thomas article and elsewhere.  I would appreciate an update on how this is resolved if the Admin dealing with it wouldn't mind, but I will try to check back here.  Thanks.  I'm still pretty new here.([[User:Wallamoose|Wallamoose]] ([[User talk:Wallamoose|talk]]) 22:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC))
: I took a look at the activities of {{user|Ap4dw}}, and I'm not seeing anything that really needs an administrator.  Whether or not he's actually Wilkes, is hard to tell. Could also be a fan, or a student, or maybe someone who just read that link and thought it would make a good addition to Wikipedia.  I know that when I'm reading a history book, and I like the book, I'll often check relevant Wikipedia articles to see if it might be useful as a source anywhere, and if so, I might suddenly add the same book to several articles.  Which doesn't mean I'm associated with the author, it just means that it's easier to copy/paste a complex string into multiple places all at once.  :) The link itself seems on a quick glance to be reasonable,[http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/his33_trial1.html] and a plausibly useful external link (though talkpage consensus on any one of those articles might have a different standard for external links, I'm not sure).  My recommendation is that rather than calling for an admin, just [[WP:SOFIXIT|be bold, and fix it]].  You can also chat with the user directly.  :) Like post a polite message on his talkpage, ask if he has any questions about how Wikipedia works, stuff like that.  I posted a {{tl|welcome}} template there just now, to give him some basic useful links.  There's some good common sense advice at [[User:WLU/Generic sandbox]], too. If he (or you) still have questions, you can try posting them at [[WP:HELPDESK]], or at the talkpage of an article where you're working, or c'mon over to [[User talk:Elonka|my talkpage]] and I'll see if I can help. --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 01:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I don't see the need for an admin so far, but all of the edits this user has made have been attempts to add external links to Wilkes articles in places where they did not belong.  I have removed the ones that hadn't yet been reverted, in [[Nuremberg Trials]] and [[Bush v. Gore]].  I also removed several more improper links from the latter site.  I'll watchlist the two articles, and come back here if necessary.  I've also posted a message to the user on his talk page. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 03:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== I am pursued by an administrator ==

{{resolved|closed due to crossposting. Continue discussion (if any) at [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-16 Simeon of Moscow]] [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 02:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)}}
User [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]], administrator reverts all my edits wherever they are, in a number of articles ([[Simeon of Moscow]], [[1999 NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia]], [[Peter, Duke of the Romans]], [[Guelphs and Ghibellines]], the last has been put to consensus by another user though), mostly without any explanation. He also treatened me with a block because of content disagreement: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Certh]. From some articles, he removes sourced material without explanation: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Simeon_of_Moscow&action=history]. I ask to protect me from this administrator who pursues me. I feel that Hibernian is reverting all my edits without explaining to me why. --[[User:Certh|Certh]] ([[User talk:Certh|talk]]) 22:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Maybe (need subject matter expert), but Certh is definitely edit warring over it. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 22:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Isn't it [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] who edit-warring? Or administrator cannot edit-war by definition? Can you please put edit-warring worning into [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]]'s talk page just as you just did with mine? At least I did not remove anything without explanation. I think removing sourced material (even without explanation) constitute vandalism and blatant POV-pushing.--[[User:Certh|Certh]] ([[User talk:Certh|talk]]) 22:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Would you call [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Certh this] "explanation?" '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 23:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::This regards only one article ([[Peter, Duke of the Romans]]). For other articles there is no explanation.--[[User:Certh|Certh]] ([[User talk:Certh|talk]]) 23:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: The other articles to be almost identical conflicts.  Note that [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] isn't the only one reverting your edits. Perhaps you should take the hint and [[WP:AGF]].   [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 00:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

*I move this to be closed given that it is concurrently running at [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-16 Simeon of Moscow]], or that it remain open and the MCabal case be closed. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 01:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Agreed.  [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 02:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:It is moved to be closed in both places. I encourage that, but welcome any comments on the matter. [[User:Hiberniantears|Hiberniantears]] ([[User talk:Hiberniantears|talk]]) 03:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Xasha]] ==

{{resolved|1=[[User:AGK|Anthony]] has blocked Xasha for 48 hours and extended his topic ban to all matters Eastern European; a site ban has been seriously considered but we agreed to try and see whether this topic ban works out. [[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 09:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)}}

Not long ago, I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=242291908 complained] here that [[User:Xasha]] is causing serious disruption and harm to the project, and that I believe meaningful action should be taken against him. Following my report, Xasha was blocked - his [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AXasha eighth block] in the last four months. Unfortunately, he is right back to violating [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Log_of_blocks_and_bans|his topic ban]] regarding "all edits touching on the historical and ethnic relation between Moldova and Romania".

Right after returning from his block, Xasha immediately made several edits violating his topic ban. [[User:Gutza]], an administrator, [[User_talk:Xasha#Topic_ban_reminder_2|warned him]] and Xasha [[User_talk:Gutza#Re:_4|acknowledged]] receiving the warning. (I should add that he had a "[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement&diff=prev&oldid=238567504 very serious warning]" on September 15.) However, since Gutza's warning, Xasha has only increased his edit-warring, every time violating his topic ban: see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Moldova&action=history here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=B%C4%83l%C5%A3i&action=history here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moldavian_Autonomous_Soviet_Socialist_Republic&action=history here] for clear examples.

The implication is clear. Xasha is indeed, as I noted two weeks ago to his displeasure, "the prototypical Eastern European nationalist POV-pusher...He's never written an article, and hardly contributed content", instead disrupting the project time and again. He has proven beyond any doubt (if such doubt ever existed) that he is not here to build an encyclopedia but to tear down others' work and use the project as a [[WP:BATTLEGROUND|battleground]]. His repeated, brazen violation of his topic ban is galling. Will he be served up yet another "final warning" and continue to be allowed to thumb his nose at the community, or will the curtain finally come down on this charade? [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 20:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:So I see Biruitorul is trying to remove sources like [[The American Journal of International Law]], The [[Hague Academy of International Law]] and [[Charles Upson Clark]] because they don't support his POV, and since he doesn't have any real argument to dismiss them, he has to secure a block for me to make sure nobody will contest his buddies removal of those sources. Two of the linked pages (Balti and MASSR) are clearly outside the scope of the topic ban, and the inclusion of the addition of the sources mentioned above in [[History of Moldavia]] is disputable.[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 20:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::I was about to block you for a month when I was interrupted by your message on my talkpage - which has enabled me to consider this further. Biruitorul, I think you need to open a request at [[WP:RfAR]] regarding this matter and see if the Arbs are willing to consider expanding/broadening the topic ban. While I think that a short block per the existing topic ban is legitimate it does not seem to have the deterring effect, so perhaps it should go back to ArbCom to see if further sanctions are worthwhile. As Xasha would need participate in any discussion I shall not block in this instance - but if another admin feels differently then I have no objection. (Please note that Xasha will request block exemption for his ip - since it is used by other editors. I understand this has been granted before, Xasha can supply the details.) 

::ps. Xasha, it doesn't matter about the quality of your references - you are violating your topic ban. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

::Just a note: I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Moldova&action=history never did in fact] remove those sources, though of course they're being used to support a fringe POV, which is itself troubling. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 01:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::You did support the version that excluded them by fixing its grammar. Also, what would be the motivation of two undeniably reputable Western institution and a US Romania-expert to support a POV? (which is no way fringe, just that is opposed by a large part of the often politically controlled '''Romanian''' historiography)[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 09:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Nonsense. I didn't remove them and that's that. If you must know, a 1944 source may (''may'') be biased because the US and USSR were still allies, while Sinclair's "bilateral agreement" phrasing completely misses the point that it was done by force. However, that is not the point. What is the point is that you continue to brazenly defy your topic ban in the face of ArbCom consensus - and that is intolerable. [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 15:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::(Edit conflict, but I want to say this for the record.) In my opinion Xasha has proven time and again that he's a POV-pushing revert warrior who follows an agenda irrespective to Wikipedia etiquette, rules or policies, and that temporary measures fail to change anything. As such, I would even endorse a ban on this user, since it's obvious to me that nothing works as a deterrent. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 21:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Which may be the case, but there is an existing ArbCom decision on this matter and if there needs to be a different remedy then it needs to go through that procedure first. However, if there is no desire for this then it is a case of escalating blocks until the topic ban runs out... I have no position in this matter other than to advise the options. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::: Unaware of this case here, I broough it [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Xasha_on_Moldovan.2FRomanian_linguistic_and_historical_issues over here]. [[User:Dc76|Dc76]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Dc76|talk]]</sup> 22:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Just to clarify: users can be community banned, even if they've been through, or are going through an ArbCom case. Alternatively, ArbCom can modify the restrictions and/or impose a Committee ban on the user too. [[User:Ncmvocalist|Ncmvocalist]] ([[User talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 01:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::You have to look at the opportunity of a ban. Would such reputable sources as the above ever be added to a topic otherwise dominated by a few opinionated Romanian users (cause not all Romanian users on en.WP are so)? Was Wikipedia improved by the addition of those sources? (isn't this rhetorical?) Is the aversion of those few users to the reputable source-supported perspective introduced by me enough to prevent me from further increasing the quality of Moldova-related Wikipedia articles?[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 09:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::You're only proving you still don't understand that you're under a topic ban, and that you shouldn't have touched those topics no matter what; you're further proving that you cannot follow the rules of this project, regardless of how many warnings and blocks you receive -- after several blocks, under a topic ban, on the administrators' noticeboard, you're still discussing editorial issues and making counter-accusations involving a Romanian cabal. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 09:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Please be advised that so far there is consensus for banning this user, since I haven't seen anyone opposing that. I'm not saying this will necessarily remain so, I just want to prevent this from being silently archived; if that happens at this point of the discussion, or before there is any opposition, then I will ban the user myself as per said consensus. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 18:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:There no such thing. 3 opinionated Romanian users don't make a consensus.[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 18:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::[[Wikipedia:Silence and consensus|Of course they do]]. But again, I'm not saying this consensus will necessarily stand until this section is archived, I'm only making sure everybody is aware of what will happen if there is no opposition. This is neither a warning nor a threat, I'm just making sure we all know where we currently stand. And incidentally that's very much in your favor, since an abrupt announcement of this sort is usually followed by rebuttals -- the alternative would have been quietly proceeding to banning you on the same grounds, but without this announcement. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 19:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::So you want to ban an opponent in a content dispute you're involved in based on an essay. Great! [[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 19:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Wow, great idea, wikilawyering is the best thing you can do at this point! --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 19:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Noting the prospective abuse of administrative powers is just sensible, and warning admins against such thing can't be reasonably construed as wikilawyering.[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 19:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'm not sure I'm following your rationale, aren't we writing on the same page? How exactly is your warning towards admins supposed to work when it's just next to the very announcement of said prospective abuse? Either you're assuming all admins reading the Administrators' noticeboard are plain stupid and need your explicit warning to figure out an abuse announced in plain view, or you're wikilawyering -- I don't see other options (but hey, I'm an admin, what do I know). --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::This wouldn't be the first time you ignore the part about admins not using admin powers in content disputes they take part in, so by "admins" I was talking about you. Also your choice of options isn't the most civil one.[[User:Xasha|Xasha]] ([[User talk:Xasha|talk]]) 20:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::I won't answer to this particular thread of the conversation anymore, but I want to point out a few things for the record:
::::::::* I cannot, have not and will not use my admin powers within content disputes (feel free to prove otherwise). However, that is related to taking unilateral action by the admin's own accord -- this is totally different, I would simply enforce a community consensus. Incidentally, bans are never unilateral, so I couldn't have banned you on my own accord anyway (that would be an inexcusable policy breach).
::::::::* The [[Wikipedia:Silence and consensus|essay]] I linked to above is explicitly "''intended to supplement [[WP:Consensus]]''"; as such, it is mentioned within the very body of [[WP:Consensus]]. Also, for anyone familiar with the policies in place that essay is not really necessary (the spirit of the [[WP:Consensus|Consensus]] policy is clear enough for experimented users). You are an experienced Wikipedian, therefore your clinging to that material's status as an essay is obvious wikilawyering.
::::::::* Finally, your last reply is fallacious in its entirety. This ''would'' actually be the first time I'd ignore the part about admins not using admin powers in content disputes they take part in, and in addition ''I'm not'' in this case either. And my choice of options ''is'' actually not only civil, but indeed gentlemanly -- I chose to assume we admins were the stupid ones.
::::::::As I said, I will try not to follow up on this particular thread, unless I find your next answer erroneous enough to merit further clarifications. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 21:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

← The point is that Xasha has continued to post on WP in violation of his topic ban.  Whether the additions made to the article(s) were reliable or not, does not void this fact.  Then to come and comment on this ANI about other editors, using phrases such as "since he doesn't have any real argument to dismiss them" and "make sure nobody will contest his buddies removal of those sources" or "a topic otherwise dominated by a few opinionated Romanian users", continues to enforce the Arbcom decision of the necessity of imposing a topic ban of certain editors.  When you consider the number of blocks placed on Xasha and his return each time to once again violate the topic ban, you can only conclude that he is not willing to abide by the communities decisions and will not change his editing habits.  The only conclusion I can make from this activity is that a ban is indeed warranted and has been postponed longer than necessary.  Blocking the user is not working to prevent his revisiting his topic ban once the block expires.  It has become a pattern of disruption and abuse that needs to be stopped, not delayed for a short time, to once again start anew.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 20:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In September 2008 the User Xasha hurt again his topic ban hurt (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement/Archive27#User:Xasha this discussion]), but the administrators were very generous with him and he was not punished (though it was not the first time he hurt his topic ban). Xasha also showed no signs of remorse and he refused to revert his disputed and forbidden edit. He only wrote that ''"You can't change the past. What is done is done."'' Now seeing that he carried forward his behavior (especially regarding his topic ban), my conclusion about this user is clear: '''Xasha is incorrigible'''. From this reason I request a full ban for Xasha. Regards, --[[User:Olahus|Olahus]] ([[User talk:Olahus|talk]]) 21:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:I want to comment to this remark by Xasha: ''"You have to look at the opportunity of a ban. Would such reputable sources as the above ever be added to a topic otherwise dominated by a few opinionated Romanian users (cause not all Romanian users on en.WP are so)? Was Wikipedia improved by the addition of those sources?"'' Yes, those sourses not only will but are already being added by Illythr. Except that he does that in a completely different manner from Xasha. And yes, Wikipedia would be improved by the addition of anything, even "Adolf Hitler/Joseph Stalin once said "..." ". Absolutely noone prevented Xasha to add the sources in the talk pages. Talk page activity on the banned subjects is ok. But, hey, that does not give internal satisfaction of a pinch just delievered in the face. [[User:Dc76|Dc76]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Dc76|talk]]</sup> 04:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*I have blocked Xasha for 48 hours, and additionally, banned him from editing all articles relating to Eastern Europe, indefinitely. I'm not sure whether this would be a justification for closing this thread and "waiting to see" how that topic ban works, perhaps? <span style="font-family: Garamond;">[[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] ([[User talk:AGK|talk]])</span> 16:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Not really, no, unless someone wants to take it personally upon themselves to follow Xasha for a couple of months or so. Xasha has been topic banned and subsequently blocked several times, and even in this section he's still having editorial arguments and accusing people. Your extended topic ban doesn't change anything -- if he was unable to abide by a more narrow topic ban I don't see how a broader topic ban could work better. Personally I don't have anything against your conditions, should Xasha respect them -- but I know that won't happen, and we'll all have to go through this process several times more before reaching the same unavoidable result. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 17:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::P.S. One good indicator regarding Xasha's inclination to abide by topic bans is the fact that he has never agreed to abide by them. He was blocked several times for breaching the old topic ban, he has contested or discussed several of the blocks, but he never said he wouldn't do it again or shown any sort of remorse for the actions which led to his being blocked (e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=231975504&oldid=231973120 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=226644617&oldid=226642332 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=226642332&oldid=226641579 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=233796740&oldid=232333049 here], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=233805189&oldid=233803125 here], and most recently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=245681331&oldid=245679569 here]). --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 19:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I respectfully disagree with Gutza (although I am sure that in view of my boldness when I edit I am much more of a Nemesis to Xasha than Gutza, who edits almost politically correctly - I am not implying that is good or bad, just observing that as an admin Gutza is 10 times more careful than me). I think if sysop X issues a ban, he generally follows through with what is going on after that. So, if Xasha returns to his behavior, Anthony would be there to witness first hand. All we need to do is give to Anthony a list of the articles Xasha attacks and let him follow for some time (some weeks) the developments there. [[User:Dc76|Dc76]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Dc76|talk]]</sup> 22:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Administrators are volunteers like everybody else, Anthony is by no means obligated to follow up on anything unless he chooses to. Also, please note he has only asked a question, he didn't make any personal assertions in this matter. As I said above, if he -- or any other admin for that matter -- voluntarily chooses to take this upon themselves then I for one have no problem with that solution. And even if that doesn't happen, if there are any voices against Xasha's ban for any reasonable reasons (i.e. not a vandal having fun) then there is no consensus on banning him, and that option drops altogether regardless of whether someone wants to watch him or not. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I would of course keep an eye on Xasha, but that's a different ball game entirely from taking him personally under my wing and watching his every edit. Having said that, I don't think we should rubbish the value of a topic ban altogether; to date, Xasha has been a source of irritation mainly in the Eastern Europe topic area. My topic ban has effectively eliminated that source of irritation; perhaps Xasha will start to constructively contribute? In all honesty, I prefer this course of action to a site ban; if, 2-3 months down the line, the topic ban has clearly failed to stem Xasha's disruption, then yes, a formal community ban could be looked into. But let's not jump the gun. <span style="font-family: Garamond;">[[User:AGK|<font color="#2A8B31">'''Anthøny'''</font>]] ([[User talk:AGK|talk]])</span> 23:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I ''know'' I'm going to regret this, but ok, let's try that and see how it goes. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 07:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Sponsorations]] ==

Anybody have any idea what [[User:Sponsorations|this]] is all about?  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 22:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:Just to state the obvious: There seems to be a Hungarian songwriter called Axone. [http://indiestore.7digital.com/axone/] An article on him on the Hungarian Wikipedia was deleted. [http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axone] User Sponsorations is apparently trying to create an article on him here. The "important" link points to the Hungarian article from two weeks before it was deleted for the second time, saved in weird format (as an email). -[[User:Hans Adler|Hans Adler]] ([[User talk:Hans Adler|talk]]) 22:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::It just looked like a mass of gobbledygook to me.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 01:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::This user has been trying for some time to get "Axone" mentioned on Wikipedia in any possible way.  He has created an [[Axone]] article several times, only to have it speedied each time, and spammed a link into [[axon]], which is what first brought it to my attention.  The user has been advised, warned, and blocked, and shows no sign of ever giving up. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 03:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


''Post below moved from [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive480]], where user belatedly responded to original thread [[User:EyeSerene|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#4B0082">EyeSerene</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:EyeSerene|<span style="color:#6B8E23">talk</span>]]</sup> 07:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)''

RE:

Axone's professional musicians,why may not they be worth a short article?
Hungraian:

Axonék professzionális zenészek,miért nem érdemelhetnek meg egy rövid cikket?
On Internet many sites to be found the about them descriptions and reference?

Hungarian:

Számos leírás és referencia szól róluk az interneten. Az összes keresőben benne vannak
Miért nem ír valaki róluk egy elfogadható cikket?

Why not a write someone article on them?

Mi az ami nem megfelelő,vagy nevezetes két ilyen rendhagyó zenészben?

What that, which in incongruent,or notable, so fine artists?
Please someone writes,an useable article on them on the english or hungarian wikipedia!
Kérjük írjon valaki egy használható cikket róluk az angol vagy magyar wikipédiában!

Thanks for supporting them...
Kind regards,
Karola, Bp, Hungary

:I'm afraid I got bored removing the various postings/rants/recreation of the "Axone" page.  To me this user is not prepared to work collaboratively.  I've blocked for a week (they have previously been blocked for 72 hours) - if anyone thinks that excessive.....  Personally I think it unlikely that this user will work in a way that is not disruptive so an indefinite block would not worry me.  Thanks --[[User:Herbythyme|<span style="color:green;">Herby</span>]] <b><sup><small>[[User talk:Herbythyme|<span style="color:#90F;">talk thyme</span>]]</small></sup></b> 10:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::No problem with that, although the combination of poor English and bad bot-translation that led to Wikipedia being described as a "mastercool hoggish plaza of truth or reality" was also quite refreshing ;) [[User:EyeSerene|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#4B0082">EyeSerene</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:EyeSerene|<span style="color:#6B8E23">talk</span>]]</sup> 11:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Now that has made my day - thanks :). (<small>It should not be taken that I either agree or disagree with the above statement....;)</small>). --[[User:Herbythyme|<span style="color:green;">Herby</span>]] <b><sup><small>[[User talk:Herbythyme|<span style="color:#90F;">talk thyme</span>]]</small></sup></b> 11:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== User requests review of block ==

{{resolved|Unblocked. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 08:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)}}

Please see [[User talk:Caspian blue#3RR on The Sea of Japan naming dispute]]. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 06:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:Actually, it looks like I misread the four reverts as not all of them were for the same image I was seeing. I have unblocked Caspian blue and apologized on his page. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<span style="color:green;">日本穣</span>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|Talk to Nihonjoe]]</small></sup> 08:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
== Legal threats by RonCram ==

{{user|RonCram}} has repeated several legal threats against Wikimedia and against the editors involved.  The issue arose over his attempt to use [[Worldnetdaily]] as source for fringe claims in a [[WP:BLP]]. In response to consensus that Worldnetdaily could not be considered a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] for these claims he said "If the official position of Wikipedia is that WorldNetDaily is not RS, I will notify Joe Farah immediately. I don't know for certain but it would not surprise me if he chose to pursue legal action." [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=245290748&oldid=245290032]  Following that statement, he was warned [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245291879&oldid=245264532] about making legal threats.  However he continued and escalated these threats:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245323713&oldid=245322475]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245293951&oldid=245291879]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245296761&oldid=245295688]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245319779&oldid=245317604]
And this very specific threat:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonCram&diff=245379757&oldid=245331161]

He seems to think that because he's not saying ''he''  will sue, rather he'll inform the owners of that website who will then sue, that he is off the hook for legal threats.  My understanding is that this is not true.  I know, of course, that his legal threats are ridiculous, but the worry is that it will have a chilling effect on other, less experienced, editors who are questioning his edits.   --[[User:Loonymonkey|Loonymonkey]] ([[User talk:Loonymonkey|talk]]) 17:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:Perhaps we just need to have a "bring it on" attitude and ignore such threats? If some Admins here declare that whatever Ron plans to do in his life outside of wikipedia is irrelevant and then post a link on the talk page to this decision then it seems to me that the matter would be settled. [[User:Count Iblis|Count Iblis]] ([[User talk:Count Iblis|talk]]) 17:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::(ec) Strikes me that his statements rather blatantly violate [[WP:NLT]]/[[WP:NPLT]], if not in the wording of the policy, than certainly in the ''[[WP:IAR?|spirit]]'' thereof- NLT exists (at least in part) to prevent the very chilling effects that Loonymonkey speaks of from occurring, and threats to ''instigate'' another party to taking legal action shouldn't be treated any differently than direct legal threats. And in response to Count Iblis, [[WP:DOLT|we shouldn't overlook legal threats]]. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 17:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::<small>(font reduced to clarify RomCram isn't new) I'm against blocking relatively new accounts that don't know any better for making legal threats, but</small> I'm in favor of blocking accounts of editors who have been here long enough to know better and who are repeatedly using legal threats as a bludgeon to get their way.  Now, RonCram's legal threat is particularly silly, and I don't think any of the people he's arguing with are dumb enough to feel threatened, so I won't block him myself for the threats already made and listed above (although I won't raise a hand in his defense if someone else blocks him), but I will block him the next time he does something similar.  On my way to his talk page now to say so, assuming someone else hasn't already blocked... --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 17:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::::(ec again)Actually, ignore my mention of [[WP:DOLT]], I misquoted it here. My meaning was that we shouldn't just ignore the situation as it's primarily off-wiki. Ron can go ahead and inform whomever he pleases of whatever he pleases, but using the ''threat'' of causing a disruption of Wikipedia in order to gain the advantage in a dispute isn't really a "best practice". &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 17:51, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Well, keep in mind that he made these threats after  he was template-warned about legal threats, so he can't really plead ignorance.  Also, RonCram has been around since 2005 and has made thousands of edits, so it isn't really accurate to call it a "relatively new account." This is an experienced editor. --[[User:Loonymonkey|Loonymonkey]] ([[User talk:Loonymonkey|talk]]) 18:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I've also posted on RonCram's talk page. Essentially I agree with barneca; no amount of wikilawyering is going to justify a continuation of this behaviour.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 18:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::(e/c) I may have been unclear.  I don't think he's new, I was saying I think we block new accounts making legal threats too quickly, but he's not new, so even if this is skirting the letter of NLT, I'd be fine blocking him if he does it again, because he's not new and he knows better.  Both SheffieldSteel and I have left notes on his talk page. --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 18:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

:This is clearly a case where it's more important to pay attention to the intent of the policy rather than the letter of the policy.
:All that aside though; I have a question of the ref being discussed.  Where did that discussion take place?  Was the concensus in regard to that specific article, or in regard to it being used as a source on all of Wikipedia?  The reason I ask, is that it appears that the site is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.worldnetdaily.com&limit=1500&offset=0 currently used as a ref] or well over 1,000 articles ... so if concensus is that it should not be used as a [[WP:RS]] on all of Wikipedia, then we have a lot of cleanup to do. --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 18:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::That link is grabbing instances of that link on all namespaces, not just article namespace. While there are some cases where it's being used ([[Christian Exodus]] for example), a lot of those are in the Talk namespace. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 18:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Good point.  I did a quick scan, out of the first 100, only about 45 or so are in the article namespace.  Using that as a means to estimate and rounding down, that still leaves over 400 articles that need to be evaluated and possibly cleaned up if the site should not be used. --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 18:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Good estimate; 507 links on 413 articles from the first 1000 entries on the ListSearch. [[User:Someguy1221|Someguy1221]] ([[User talk:Someguy1221|talk]]) 19:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Not a sufficient metric, though.  WorldNetDaily would be citable at articles about its own notable staff writers, such as [[Matt Sanchez]], and might be acceptable as an external link on pages where it isn't used as a citation.  Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of citations that need to be taken down.  I've been going through popular song articles taking out attempted citations to Angelfire, Blogspot, Tripod, etc. - low traffic stubs have a tendency to accumulate that sort of thing. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 21:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Three of them are links to a [[Pat Buchanan]] anti-gay screed, used as primary sources to describe lay Catholics' attitude regarding gay people. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 06:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't know which  statement we're talking about here - the editor has proposed so many, which as I recall tend to be fringe-y blogosphere style conspiracy theories and random criticisms.  We also have many issues beyond legal threats.  I know the editor was promoting a theory in two articles that Bill Ayers ghost-wrote Barack Obama's autobiography, and crying censorship, bullying, etc. at all attempts to close or consolidate the discussions.  If Worldnet's articles are suspect it might not be a bad idea to do a spot check on the reliability of citations.  It would be hard to make a statement that applies throughout Wikipedia based on the Obama article.  Verifiability of hyper-notable political matters probably works a little differently than routine article editing.  We often ask for more than one source, or a consensus among sources, on the theory that a lone source however reliable might have it wrong and may not satisfy weight concerns.  If a guest writer writes a blurb about a furniture factory in a small town weekly newspaper in Ohio that is a reliable source, but we need better sourcing than the writer if the claim is that there is some truth after all to the rumor that Obama has a terrorist for a ghostwriter (or that he's Muslim, Arab, not born in America, the Messiah according to Farrakhan, participates in voter fraud, or any of the other comparable proposals that have come up in the past dayd).   Certain publishers and authors may tend to be more reliable than others, but in the end sourcing is a case-by-case question of whether the specific work in question is reliable to verify the specific statement it purportedly supports in a given article.  But in general blogs, highly partisan news organizations, small circulation papers, and opinion/editorial/commentary pieces (whether presented as such or as news) are poor sources for controversial factual claims about politicians in current elections.   [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 18:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::It's just a standard application of "extraordinary claims need extraordinary sources". --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 19:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I feel I should respond to this comment by Wikidemon.  The work done by Cashill has been published in WorldNetDaily and National Review Online.  Columnists in daily newspapers have picked up on this controversy and opined about it.  I do not see how something that is discussed in RS such as these could be called fringe.  This discussion here is really not about me.  It is people who want to stifle the opinion's of others (professional journalists and columnists) during an election. [[User:RonCram|RonCram]] ([[User talk:RonCram|talk]]) 03:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::The discussion is about your editing on the Barack Obama-related pages.  It was initially over your insisting that any discussion over the trustworthiness of World News Daily and Jack Cashill's opinion piece there would subject Wikipedia to legal liability.  You have been told not to do that and I hope you got the message.  From the perspective of editors of the Obama article, there is a problem with your pushing fringe theories such as the bizarre, poorly sourced accusation that Barack Obama's autobiography was in fact authored by Bill Ayers.  You can argue all you want that your source is reliable, the theories are not fringe, that it's all true, and that other editors have no right to limit the discussion but that does not change the community's decision on the matter.  Moreover, your hostile attitude towards the many long-term editors here who try to manage the talk page - re-opening closed discussions, crying censorship, accusing editors of agendas and bias - is unwelcome.  If you persist you will be asked not to further edit the page.  If you come back to the page, please do not agitate further for theories the community has dismissed as poorly sourced and fringe, and do not complain there about other editors and their way of handling discussions.  This is very disruptive and it shuts down the normal functioning of the talk page to handle proposed improvements to the article.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 03:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::Wikidemon, I was not arguing that "it was all true."  I am arguing that WorldNetDaily, National Review Online and Cleveland Leader are RS, making the controversy mainstream. I am arguing that the controversy is relevant to the article and interesting to Wikipedia readers. [[User:RonCram|RonCram]] ([[User talk:RonCram|talk]]) 04:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::That's a side issue perhaps, but if you view it that way nearly every disputable claim about a major political candidate is extraordinary in that sense.  Did politician X do Y?  Any answer either way would need a multitude of sources if challenged, or else it may be fringe, of no weight, or simply inaccurate.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 21:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'm tempted for blocking for mis-stating the law, thus illegally practicing law.  Corporations can not be defamed under NY law, common law, or Florida law. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 19:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::All other points aside, I'm fairly sure "mis-stating the law" when one is making no claims to be a lawyer is '''not''' "illegally practicing law". [[User:Achromatic|Achromatic]] ([[User talk:Achromatic|talk]]) 20:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
:The point of the no legal threats policy isn't really about legal threats - it's about the use of coercive tactics to intimidate other contributors - basing an argument on instilling fear, rather than on its own merits. This is the essence of Roncram's actions. However, I don't believe it necessarily requires a block, as it's clear that nobody involved is actually frightened by the action - I think a stern reprimand would be fine. [[User:Dcoetzee|Dcoetzee]] 19:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
::Ron has a looooooong history of dodgy BLP stuff. It's been a while but I clearly recall his repeated statements that [[Michael Mann]], a prominent client scientist, was unethical.  (For the tip of the iceberg see e.g., [[Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_10]] at the "User William M. Connolley (2)" entry). So this isn't a one-off episode but a firmly established pattern. I fear that if something is not done about Ron's behavior Wikipedia could eventually wind up with a ''real'' legal threat on its hands. Perhaps a BLP parole along the lines of the [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Privatemusings|Privatemusings arbcom case]] would be in order. [[User:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|Short Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Short Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 00:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I want to thank you for inviting me to this fine site.  I had a busy day at work and just turned off the presidential debate to find this interesting discussion.  I especially enjoyed seeing this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:LinkSearch&target=http%3A%2F%2F%2A.worldnetdaily.com&limit=1500&offset=0 currently used as a ref]. If you take this at face value you can see that the Wikipedia community believes WorldNetDaily is RS.  But certain politically motivated editors have made claims that it is not.  This is extremely problematic and purging Wikipedia of all WorldNetDaily citations would only make things worse. Regarding my comments about Michael Mann, they were based on this English translation article [http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/Climate_L.pdf] from the Dutch science magazine ''Natuurwetenschap & Techniek''.  Anyone who reads that article and understands it will see my comments about Mann were not out of line. [[User:RonCram|RonCram]] ([[User talk:RonCram|talk]]) 03:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Legal threats disrupt Wikipedia. We block to prevent other types of disruption, why don't we block to prevent this user from continuing to disrupt with his (fairly obvious) legal threats. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 04:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Blocking is to prevent disruption, not for punishment or sense of completion.  Everyone deserves a chance to edit constructively.  The legal threat is stale at this point, and the editor has been warned.  If he avoids the subject or contributes in a collegial, civil, productive way he is welcome to edit as he wishes.  But I do suggest that if he causes more disruption on the Obama pages by tendentiously proposing fringe theories, interfering with discussion process, or making legal threats anywhere on the project, someone needs to take stronger action.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::This really has been interesting and educational.  Previously, I was informed that op-ed pieces are not RS and cannot be cited on Wikipedia.  I was surprised to learn op-ed pieces are RS as long as they criticize conservatives or conservative publications like [[WorldNetDaily]]. The [[WorldNetDaily]] article calls the website "unreliable" and links to this. [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/375947_youngonline22.html] Not only is this an op-ed piece, it does not use the term unreliable. The same claim of unreliability also links to a critical op-ed piece by Media Matters which criticizes CBS News for publishing the same report as WND. Interestingly, Wikipedia editors critical of WND do not consider CBS News unreliable. [http://mediamatters.org/items/200710150007] [[User:RonCram|RonCram]] ([[User talk:RonCram|talk]]) 12:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that [[:Talk:WorldNetDaily#This_page_is_desperately_POV | my own response to RonCram]] was included in a discussion that links here, and was included in a section that was archived and marked "do not modify." I'm not quite sure what the full implications of this might be, but to clarify: I responded to the user's claims about [[WP:RS]], and I offered my opinion as a journalist regarding citations of op-eds. I didn't, however, address the user's statements regarding any "legal action" (and, indeed, I was unaware of any previous history the user may have had regarding such statements). I don't normally get involved in administrative discussions regarding user conduct; I just want to make sure that my response to this user's statement doesn't somehow implicate me or get me classified among administrators as a "troublesome user." Any help? Have I inadvertently stepped into a hornet's nest? Thanks! [[User:Rangergordon|Rangergordon]] ([[User talk:Rangergordon|talk]]) 07:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

== Uninvolved admin on [[:Template:Databases]] (Ramu50 again) ==

I need an uninvolved administrator to review [[:Template:Databases]] - [[User:{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}]] (<span class="plainlinks">[[User talk:{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|<span title="Contributions: {{ucfirst:Ramu50}}">contribs</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:DeletedContributions/{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|<span title="Deleted contributions: {{ucfirst:Ramu50}}">deleted contribs</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [{{SERVER}}/wiki/Special:Log/move?user={{urlencode:{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}}} <span title="Page moves: {{ucfirst:Ramu50}}"><span style="color:#002bb8;">page&nbsp;moves</span></span>]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Blockip/{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|<span title="Block User:{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}">block&nbsp;user</span>]]&nbsp;'''·''' [{{fullurl:Special:Log/block|page=User:{{urlencode:{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}}}}} <span title="Blocklog: {{ucfirst:Ramu50}}"><span style="color:#002bb8;">block&nbsp;log</span></span>]{{#ifexist:{{SITENAME}}:Requests for checkuser/Case/{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|&nbsp;'''·'''&nbsp;[[{{SITENAME}}:Requests for checkuser/Case/{{ucfirst:Ramu50}}|rfcu]]}}</span>) has made some extremely questionable additions, I'm going to 3RR on reverting him if I do more, and his responses on the article talk page are not making any sense.  This is an area I'm familiar with, and Ramu50 seems to be adding material which is completely inappropriate to the template.  He's claiming deeper knowledge of computer architecture but not sourcing claims.  This is an area which I've studied and worked in professionally and he seems to just be spouting nonsense so far.  He could be a non-native-english-speaking research grad student who's just not communicating effectively in english or something, but he's not listening to me, and I can't protect the template when I'm involved in a content dispute on it etc.  Thanks.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 00:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:You probably want to go instead to [[WP:3O]] for a third opinion, as this is more of a content dispute (there are several scalating venues in [[WP:DR]], and 3O is one of the first ones). I left my own opinion on the talk page --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 01:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:: He's not a grad student, but someone taking [[Talk:Function_(mathematics)|Math 12]]. He's buggered other people before on math and computing topics, generally acting against consensus, sometimes rudely. He seems to chill out quickly though. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 08:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

: This is getting beyond a joke. This is the fourth thread on Ramu50 for the same thing on different templates in a month. His constant tendicious editing across different IT navbox templates isn't going to stop without administrative action. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 18:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:: I don't think he's editing tendentiously. But he is editing articles & templates where he doesn't have the necessary background, and this action of his creates unnecessary work for other editors. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 20:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

:::: Oh, and he ''does'' throw a hissy fit when contradicted, no doubt about that, see [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin/Archive_2008#functions]] and [[User_talk:CBM/Archive_10#function]]. I don't think he should be banned for this though, but he needs to learn to show more respect for other editors' opinions. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 20:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I first encountered Ramu50 some months ago on the [[talk:AT Attachment|AT Attachment talk page]]. Recently I've crossed paths with him (or her) again, first on [[:template:CPU technologies]] and now [[:template:Databases]]. 

In reviewing his edit history I come away with the following impressions:

He or she indeed has a history of, if not tendentious, at least aggressive editing, particularly in regards to templates. He often expands the template and its scope considerably ( [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AATI&diff=238880558&oldid=238536720 template:ATI], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:AMD_processors&diff=prev&oldid=243572165 template:AMD], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:CPU_technologies&diff=next&oldid=233464268 CPU techologies]) and in the process often changes the templates from single to multilevel - from simple to complex. 

These changes are ''invariably'' against consensus (as represented by ensuing discussion; see the talk pages of any of the above). In discussions he has a pattern of responding to any contradiction with challenges to others' legitimacy ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Systems_science&diff=prev&oldid=244043136 ''"who says you start making the rules"'']), 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Databases&diff=prev&oldid=245721666 multiple paragraphs of barely comprehensible verbiage with many offtopic points], referencing all manner of barely related terms, combined with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Databases&diff=prev&oldid=245539897 multiple links to web sites that often seem only to contain some of the same keywords he's using]. 

Although he rarely provides any good references for his own positions he freely demands proof from anyone who dares counter him. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAT_Attachment&diff=221967990&oldid=221967809]) Then when proof is provided he dismisses it as irrelevant or OR ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AT_Attachment&diff=next&oldid=226156652]. When he does provide "references" for his own positions they are often off point, not supporting his position at all, merely somewhat related to the topic. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AT_Attachment&diff=next&oldid=223994184])

He will frequently accuse others of having less understanding of the topic than he does. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk%3ACPU_technologies&diff=239319200&oldid=238771366 ''"if don't understant how certain components work don't revert it instantly"''], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AT_Attachment&diff=next&oldid=222157194 ''"you totally don't understand"''], etc.). 

Personal attacks, if not common, are not unheard of either. 
([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk%3ACPU_technologies&diff=243759167&oldid=239959984 ''"Get real idoit"''], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Systems_science&diff=next&oldid=244239601 ''"stop whining"''], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AT_Attachment&diff=prev&oldid=225648175 ''"you got a fucking problem with that asshole? ... What are you a fucking facist?"''])

(Please note that I bring up some of these older examples (from the AT Attachment article and talk page) not because I want action on those points, they are long since dead, but to show an ongoing pattern of behavior.) 

Another pattern is that any point he wants the article to make that anyone else does not, he defends by claiming others are biased against those points ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk%3ASystems_science&diff=244230656&oldid=244045742]) or against himself personally. He is also very free with accusations of bias against him and threats to "report to admins". 

And now he's raised a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk%3ADatabases&diff=245760513&oldid=245757287 threat of legal action] for GWH's above text. [[User:Jeh|Jeh]] ([[User talk:Jeh|talk]]) 01:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


Really Chris Cunningham and may I ask you that why did you contribs this expansion of template, when every single time we have conflict you are against. Keep on being a f**king hypocrite and we'll see in the end who has more creditability.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ADatabases&diff=165385410&oldid=165363010
--[[User:Ramu50|Ramu50]] ([[User talk:Ramu50|talk]]) 02:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

: Actually, that particular edit doesn't appear to be an "expansion of template" at all, either in visual layout or number of links. [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 10:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC).

:Ramu50 has just made against-consensus major edits to [[:Template:Sun Microsystems]] and [[:Template:Solaris]], and revert-warred the latter when it was restored by User:Raysonho.  I am extremely concerned by this behavior spree...  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 03:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:I concur with what Georgewilliamherbert and Jeh have written above. Over the last few months, Ramu50 appears to have been trying to turn several computer technology-related navbox templates ([[:Template:Sun Microsystems]], [[:Template:AMD processors]], [[:Template:CPU technologies]], [[:Template:Databases]], [[Template:IT giants]] among others) into some kind of representations of nebulous personal mind maps, which are rather idiosyncratic (to say the least), and not in accordance with the [[WP:CLN]] or [[WP:NAVBOX]] guidelines. When these changes are challenged in talk pages, Ramu50 tends to write rambling, digressive, and often incomprehensible defences, and seldom engages in constructive debate. Revert-warring and personal attacks often follow. [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 09:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC).
:: Does anyone have a concrete proposal what to do about him? [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 11:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Just so we have some options to discuss: A short block, after his next disruptive action, the block message to include links to some well-chosen articles (perhaps WP:CON, WP:DR, I don't know). Or mentoring (if someone with appropriate knowledge is willing to undertake that).  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 14:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Last king of Frisia]] ==

{{User|Last king of Frisia}} 

This user is canvassing for [[Pier Gerlofs Donia]] to be promoted to GA with the text: {{Quote|Please review and pass the following article for GA class. It is well referenced article of brilliant prose and both the Rambling man and [[user talk:Jimbo Wales]] agree it should be a Good Article.}}
I dropped him a note on his talk page, but since then he has spammed another 25+ user talk pages. He has recently been blocked for vandalism & this feels like trolling. --[[User:Nate1481|Nate]][[User talk:Nate1481|14]][[Special:Contributions/Nate1481|81]] 10:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::"Dropped him a not" looks like a typo, but in a case like this, it still works. :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 10:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::What typo? :) but agreed it could work. --[[User:Nate1481|Nate]][[User talk:Nate1481|14]][[Special:Contributions/Nate1481|81]] 10:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::"What hump?" I like the "dropped him a NOT" idea. I might start using that. And here's another oddity: When you see (rollback) at first glance (at least to my semi-dsylexic eyes) it looks like "trollback". And that works too. :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Appears to have learnt the error of his ways [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Last_king_of_Frisia&diff=prev&oldid=245635018]. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Um, this is more complex than that, please see above thread on this page [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Kermanshahi_.2F_-The_Bold_Guy-_.2F_Last_king_of_Frisia]]. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 10:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Okay, but we don't block editors who have made (several) mistakes but then say they'll stop. If they carry on we block, not before. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm relieved to see this, as I'm one of the lucky recipients of his request and was wondering what to do about it! I'll ignore it. [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 10:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I am of the mind to rollback all the unanswered requests that have been made however. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi]]. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 10:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've just blocked for 31 hours for disruption. I'm sure the editor expected no less. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::And the response is interesting. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Last_king_of_Frisia&diff=prev&oldid=245637665] <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::"You can run but you can't hide"? Who's he talking to? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::And relevant to the checkuser request, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Pier_Gerlofs_Donia] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jimmy_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=245637264] which are his attempts to involve Jimbo in it. [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 10:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm a bit busy in RL now - no objection to any admin reducing or extending my block - just a note. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<span style="color:#accC10; background:#0000fa;">&nbsp;Chat&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 10:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Looking at [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi]], this account {{user|Last king of Frisia}} is obvious block evasion of an indef block on {{user|Angela from the Blue}}, among others from the prior case history. IMO this user and {{user|Kermanshahi}} should be indef-blocked for sock abuse and block evasion. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 10:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Block 'em all! Block 'em all! The long, and the short, and the tall! :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Blocked. Now {{user|Kermanshahi}} is complaining, see his talk page. What do others think? '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 11:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:{{user|-The Bold Guy-}} requested an unblock - declined by {{user|FisherQueen}}. He has requested a second one. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::Ive actually be involved with a ring of editors on this article (probably ofr over a year).  Ive blocked many as sock puppets/meat puppets.  I am 100% sure they are at least meat puppets (and doubt they are socks).  I have talked with several of them and from all indications it is a group of friends.  I support blocks of everybody but kermanshi. [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 16:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::The [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi]] checkuser case results said {{user|Kermanshahi}} is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi&diff=245638551&oldid=245636835 "possible"] sock of {{user|-The Bold Guy-}} and {{user|Last king of Frisia}}, ''and'' also a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi&diff=118211396&oldid=118000987 "likely"] sock of indef-blocked {{user|Mrlob}}. This [[Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Kermanshahi]] RFA is also quite odd. I do not think {{user|Kermanshahi}} should be unblocked. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 17:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
{{user|Chrislk02}} seems to think that {{user|Kermanshahi}} should be unblocked. I do not feel comfortable unblocking the user and I do not think the user should be unblocked. But if there is a consensus to unblock the user, with {{user|Chrislk02}} as mentor and taking responsibility for {{user|Kermanshahi}}, I will not object. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 22:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
*{{user|Chrislk02}} has now unblocked {{user|Kermanshahi}}, ''without'' first discussing this here with others. I disagree with this, but I will leave it to {{user|Chrislk02}} to be responsible for this user's actions in the future. Thanks. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 13:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::I have unblocked Kermanshahi. No checkuser evidence has ever confirmed him to be a sockpuppet. This makes it VERY unlikley that he is (consider that through 4 checkusers there has NEVER been a concrete hit, they always come up as possible (due to geographic location). This lack of concrete evidence, plus this editors harmless editing patterns make this block a poor decision. On top of this, I have been involved with this situation for over a year (as far back as march of 07). I have contacted the editors, gotten the stories from both sides and they check out. I have unblocked Kermanshahi and will mentor him if necessary. I think the rest of the blocks can stand, I am fine with that. [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 14:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I think mentoring, or at least close and careful supervision, would be a good idea (though I'm not particularly comfortable with the unblock). There's been very odd goings on with this bunch for a while now (I ran into them via [[User:Haggawaga - Oegawagga]] back in summer '07), and something still just don't feel right... [[User:EyeSerene|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#4B0082">EyeSerene</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:EyeSerene|<span style="color:#6B8E23">talk</span>]]</sup> 14:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Agree with {{user|EyeSerene}}. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I will also agree with EyeSerene that there are some odd things going on, especially with the bold guy and the king of frisia(and some of the past accounts such as angela from the blue and going allt he wa back to Mr. Lob).  I have no doubt that there is a disruptive editor creating socks and just being troublesome, I however am 100% sure that it is not Kermansihi.  I am sorry if I jumped the gun on this unblock but I felt that being [[WP:BOLD]] in this situation was important to precent a good faith editor from being disgruntled and leaving.  On a random note, bold guy had been emailing me begging for me to unblock him.  I changed his block to prevent email and to prevent talk page posts because I have a feeling he is at the root of the troublemaking somehow.  [[User:Chrislk02|<font color="1E90FF">'''Chris'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Chrislk02|<font color="4169E1">'''lk02'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Chrislk02|<font color="2A52BE">Chris Kreider</font>]]</sup> 16:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Bilinski]] ==

This user appears to have been inactive since May, but now he's back, making personal attacks[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bilinski&diff=prev&oldid=245672452], POV pushing and edit warring on [[Menachem Begin]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Menachem_Begin&diff=prev&oldid=245675694]. His talk page makes it quite clear that he has been warned before, but has shown disregard for policy. -- [[User:Nudve|Nudve]] ([[User talk:Nudve|talk]]) 15:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABilinski&diff=245683435&oldid=245672452 Warned].  Please alert an administrator if the behavior continues.  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 15:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::He responded with a mocking, sarcastic comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABilinski&diff=245698560&oldid=245683435 here]. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I think I'll choose to take it at face value at the moment.  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 21:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::::He has been blocked for 3RR, but seems to be continuing by logging out[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Menachem_Begin&diff=prev&oldid=245894062]. -- [[User:Nudve|Nudve]] ([[User talk:Nudve|talk]]) 14:28, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Topic ban ==

I have a topic ban on me from [[Barack Obama]] related articles and I want the community to review [[User:Barneca]]'s decision. I also suggest that the community consider and issue a topic ban to [[User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]]. Previous topic ban request for LotLE at [[WP:ANI]] found [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive460#Topic_ban_for_LotLE here]. This is an overwhelming amount of evidence: edit-warring and personal attacks. There is so much evidence against this person that people were refusing to read it, because it's too long. Since then, within days after the [[John McCain]] campaign began to mention Obama's links to [[Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now]] (ACORN), LotLE went to the ACORN article and substantially reduced material about members of ACORN who have been indicted and convicted for voter registration fraud. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244689089][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690067][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690712] This was a whitewash of the article to protect Obama. He immediately started revert warring to protect his version.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244809797][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245068848] When a newbie reverted him, LotLE immediately accused the newbie of sockpuppetry in violation of [[WP:BITE]]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245073806][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245076656] (note edit summary] This removed material that had been in the article for four years before LotLE came along. This triggered an edit war between several editors and the article is now fully protected. LotLE's bias on this topic has led to long-term disruptive editing patterns.

Let's review the evidence Barneca cited when topic banning me:

:::::I have carefully reviewed your contributions, and believe the best course is to topic ban you from [[Barack Obama]], [[Talk:Barack Obama]], and related articles (broadly construed) until November 5, 2008.  You are not to edit those articles, or participate on their talk pages.  I believe I have the authority to do this based on [[Talk:Barack Obama/article probation]].
  
:::::I have taken this action for the following reasons:
:::::*You are a [[WP:SPA|single purpose account]]
:::::*I have recently blocked you for edit warring on [[Barack Obama]], and warned you that a topic ban was the next step if disruption continued
:::::*You have been [[WP:TE|tendentious editing]]; that is, refusing to listen to other editors and repeatedly saying the same things over and over, exhausting the editing community's patience (particularly with regard to Rezko)
:::::*You have repeatedly violated [[WP:SOAP]]
:::::*You nominated, in bad faith, the article for [[WP:FAR]]
:::::*You have made attacks and insults to other editors, and when they have been struck out, you have unstruck them; admittedly, most of them were borderline, but this has now happened multiple times
:::::*You are doing all these things on an article under probabation, where editors are explicitly expected to be on their best behavior, and were you have been specifically warned that this was the case.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Curious_bystander#Topic_ban_from_Barack_Obama.2C_related_articles.2C_and_talk_pages]

I have other purposes for this account and a review of my editing history will confirm that. [[WP:FAR]] was started in good faith due to NPOV violations, by a group of pro-Obama editors as confirmed by [[User:Noroton]] and several others, and due to the instability of the article content. Instability of article content, by itself, has been sufficient grounds to downgrade Featured Article BLPs in the past. So my FAR was started in good faith. Barneca describes what I was doing on the article talk page as "disruptive." What I was really doing is showing that other editors were misrepresenting what the sources said. This conduct is being described as "attacks and insults to other editors" when I was proving that what they were saying about the sources was not true. Barneca says "admittedly, most of [the attacks and insults] were borderline" but I was demonstrating that the sources were saying something different from what these editors had represented.

To make a long story short, they're lying about the sources. I was proving that they were lying about the sources and trying to remain polite about it.

For this, I'm topic banned.

I encourage anyone to post the diffs of my edits that day, and show me how so many of them were "attacks and insults." Even "borderline ... attacks and insults."

If I'm to be topic banned for what I did, then please carefully consider all that LotLE has done. Extensive compilation of diffs for evidence at [[WP:ANI]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive460#Topic_ban_for_LotLE here]. Recent diffs posted above demonstrate that he has not changed and has not learned anything. He continues to start and participate in edit wars. He continues to be hostile and accusatory toward those who disagree with him. This is surely not what Wikipedia has in mind for a collegial and constructive atmosphere. If I must be topic banned, then LotLE should be topic banned. 

Uninvolved editors only please. [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]] ([[User talk:Curious bystander|talk]]) 22:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:I know you're big on preventing anyone who disagrees with you from commenting, but you can't prevent editors from editing your section, CB. To say, "If I can't edit, no one who disagrees with me can either" is ridiculous. You edit warred, attacked other editors, wouldn't give up on your POV pushing, made bad faith edits and engaged in [[WP:TEND|tendentious editing]]. For that, you were topic banned until after the election. LotLE hasn't done half of the things that you have, and cannot be compared with yourself. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 23:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::You defend him because he agrees with you in content disputes, and because you are one of the people who was misrepresenting sources. This is why I said "univolved editors only please." Everyone who agrees with him in the content disputes will rush to his defense. LotLE has done many times the things I have done, as proven by the evidence [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive460#Topic_ban_for_LotLE here]. He has edit warred, attacked other editors, wouldn't give up on his POV pushing, made bad faith edits and engaged in [[WP:TEND|tendentious editing]]. Look at the mountain of evidence of his misbehavior, repeated recently. Where's his topic ban? [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]] ([[User talk:Curious bystander|talk]]) 23:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:I see nothing wrong with the topic ban.  You have been behaving in a way that was inappropriate, were warned that further disruption would lead to a topic ban, and have not desisted.  The topic ban was expected, predictable and quite warranted.  &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Coren|Coren]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:Coren|(talk)]]</sup> 23:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, it looks like he just violated his topic ban. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 23:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Barneca encouraged me to have his decision reviewed at [[WP:ANI]]. Look at his talk page. He's the one who imposed the topic ban, so when he says I can have the decision reviewed, I can have the decision reviewed. Review the evidence against LotLE with a dispassionate and unbiased eye, particularly the most recent evidence.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244689089][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690067][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690712][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244809797][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245068848][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245073806][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245076656] (note edit summary) If I should be topic banned, then LotLE should be topic banned. He was edit warring, editing tendentiously, making personal attacks and biting a newbie. The timing in particular, just hours after the McCain campaign started mentioning ACORN in its criticism of Obama, demonstrates the bias that LotLE can't control. It leads him to start these edit wars, wherever the presidential campaign may lead, if there's content out there in Wikipedia that may cast Obama in a bad light. [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]] ([[User talk:Curious bystander|talk]]) 23:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::And that doesn't give you permission to violate your topic ban. LotLE was already taken up in an earlier ANI case that you linked, and they decided not to take action. ANI is not the place to attempt to reverse this ruling. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]'''

:::::Barneca specifically gave me permission to have his decision reviewed here. Look at his talk page. The previous ANI ruling about LotLE should also be reviewed because of this new evidence. [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]] ([[User talk:Curious bystander|talk]]) 23:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::These are two different topics. Either you need to be topic-banned or not. Either LotLE needs to be topic-banned or not. There is no automatic link between the two. In particular, reviewing your topic ban has nothing to do with LotLE's behaviour.   --[[User:Stephan Schulz|Stephan Schulz]] ([[User talk:Stephan Schulz|talk]]) 00:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Stephan, I think it's fair to compare the two cases. Where is the threshold for imposing a topic ban? If I crossed it, how did LotLE not cross it; and if he did not cross it, how did I? Look again at the mountain of evidence against him both [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive460#Topic_ban_for_LotLE here] and here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244689089][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690067][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244690712][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244809797][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245068848][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245073806][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=245076656] (note edit summary) [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]] ([[User talk:Curious bystander|talk]]) 00:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::You are not "comparing" them. You are saying that LotLE's lack of a ban justifies the repeal of yours. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 00:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) This looks like a non-starter.  Curious bystander wants to be unbanned so he can go back to aggressive editing on the top from which he was banned.  Saying he wants to deal with "a whitewash of the article to protect Obama" suggests he is unwilling to change, but merely arguing that everyone else is all wet and he was right in being so tendentious to begin with.  CB was nothing but disruption, edit warring, insults, antagonism, and procedural game-playing when he was editing the articles.  He has accused me personally of all manner of bad faith, lying, etc., which is unpleasant and unwelcome.  As a SPA whose very first edits, and nearly all editing since, were to jump into edit wars to disparage Obama and to try to get other editors blocked and banned, the legitimacy of the account itself is in question.  The repeated claim that he is an Obama supporter who merely wants balance and sourcing is suspicious to the point of bizarre given that nearly every edit on the encyclopedia is an attempt to disparage Obama.  This is more or less the definition of a problem editor.  There is nothing here to suggests that he would do it any differently if unbanned.  The articles have calmed down considerably in his absence.  Please don't let him make a mess again. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 00:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Well written. Endorse topic ban per Demon above and everything else that's been said. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 00:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Endorse topic ban for LotLE. If his friends and editwarring allies can ignore "uninvolved editors only," then I'll have my say. LotLE isan edit warrior. When he talks, it is to attack and to make false accusations of sockpuppetry. A well deserved topic ban for him. He ignored repeated warnings. His timing in whitewash of ACORN is proof that his agenda is to cut material that might hurt Obama. Utterly transparent timing and consistent with earlier whitewash elsewhere. [[User:WorkerBee74|WorkerBee74]] ([[User talk:WorkerBee74|talk]]) 01:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Problem is, CB can't restrict who edits at ANI. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 01:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Are you actually denying that CB isn't an edit warrior, WB74? And I'm the one accused of editing in an agenda-based cabal... Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 01:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::He said "CB can't restrict who edits at ANI." Not "CB isn't an edit warrior," etc. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]''' 01:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry, I was responding to WB74, not Grsz. Bad statement on my part. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 01:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Oh, then I completely agree. '''[[User:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#120A8F">Sui</span>]][[User_talk:Suigetsu|<span style="color:#116062">get</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Suigetsu|<span style="color:#013220">su</span>]]'''
I haven't claimed that WB74 isn't an editwarrior. What I've said is LotLE is '''also''' an editwarrior. He has a consistently ugly and combative disposition. When challenged about it in proceedings like this one, he will quickly and carefully conceal it. He starts the editwars by cutting material wherever he goes that might make Obama look bad. He started an editwar at the ACORN article by removing well-sourced material that had been there for four years, then he editwarred to keep it out. Agenda driven editing: not a good thing for Wikipedia. Topic ban for LotLE. [[User:WorkerBee74|WorkerBee74]] ([[User talk:WorkerBee74|talk]]) 01:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:WB74, try to assume good faith and try to cooperate for once, please? Adding/removing material that a partisan, POV editor reverts is not starting an edit war, the person who removed it started the edit war. Discussion, not the undo button, is the key to success on Wikipedia. It was wrong of the reverting editor to have reverted without discussing first. Yes, LotLE might have edit warred, but that does not warrant a topic ban. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 01:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

*I'm '''endorsing''' this topic ban on Curious bystander -- from someone who is "uninvolved." Does that now make me involved and strike my commentary from all future discussions on this subject? Give me a break. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 02:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Upon whom are you endorsing the topic ban? Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 02:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Modified. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 03:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:*'''Support''' of the current topic ban on [[User:Curious bystander|Curious bystander]].  User is in fact using the privilege of appealing the ban, but from commentary on here by the user, just seems to want to go back and [[WP:OWN|own]] the page. [[User:Paranormal Skeptic|Paranormal Skeptic]] ([[User talk:Paranormal Skeptic|talk]]) 15:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== new editor barges into pseudoscience-related articles ==

[[User talk:RFmedic]] is disrupting pseudosciences articles by removing any negative connotation about pseudoscientific concepts, like marking well sourced sections as unreferrenced[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell&diff=prev&oldid=245822231], or removing hidden comments about [[WP:PSCI]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts&diff=245821731&oldid=245639812]. Please some admin warn him to take it way slowly. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 04:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've warned him on his talk that some of his recent edits were unconstructive and have been removed. You don't have to be an admin to do that! Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 04:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Heh, you are right, I'll do that the next time --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 04:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Now he removed the explanation that Free Energy conspiracies are probably wrong because "the standar for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Free_energy_suppression&diff=prev&oldid=245823116]. I drop any [[WP:AGF|good faith assumptions]] right now. That argument was seriously ''lame'' and obviously made up in order to remove stuff he doesn't like. (and if he's really a god faith editor, then he really really needs to be made to understand that he needs to change his ways) --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 04:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::(ec) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell&diff=prev&oldid=245822231 This edit], only his 10th since creating the account just 2 hours before, doesn't look like the work of a newbie either—he's already citing policy in edit summaries and dropping <nowiki>{{cn}}</nowiki> tags. Smells like a sock. [[User:Yilloslime|Yilloslime]] [[User_Talk:Yilloslime|('''t''')]] 04:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I was just saying that and got an edit conflict. ——'''[[User:Martinphi|<span style="color:#6c4408;border:1px dashed #6c4408;padding:1px;background:#ffffff;">Martin<sup>phi</sup></span>]]'''    [[User talk:Martinphi|☎]] Ψ [[Special:Contributions/Martinphi|Φ]]<span style="color:#ffffff;">——</span> 04:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:I consider this complaint before talking with me a seriously offencive assault at my address. 

:Lets turn the tables around for a moment. Where did you get the idea you could use Usenet as a reference?

:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell&diff=prev&oldid=245809634

:This cited source is a preposterous citation.

:http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy.hydrogen/msg/8ee0acb80e943e21?hl=endc310437cd1cee1e7&

::'''Every breadth we draw, every step we take, every thought we think, every sound or word we utter and the aeons of grief and oceans of tears we've shed for our needs or the secret exquisite pleasures, ease and security we seek we owe them all to our father cosmos & sun and earth mother ! Who else ?. Isn’t this all we are and every thing that is and will ever be ? Animated tail chasing star dust !; matter spirit energy yin yang dance ! (Probably the gist of a partly remembered translation of a Vedic hymn )''' 

:This was not part of the original article was it? Or should we perhaps correctly call it a copyright violation? I correctly added the template to this section. This was reverted by YOU without any explanation. In stead you immediately created a Administrator noticeboard post about me.

:Then your claim I deleted hidden references is also erroneous.

:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts&diff=245821731&oldid=245639812

:You clearly have some agenda against me personally. Lets also mention this contribution of mine that was deleted in less than 10 min.

:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water-fuelled_car&oldid=245804997

:As [[user:OMCV]] is citing Usenet I cant think of a reason to delete Dr. [[Andrija Puharich]] invention.

:Do you have some explanation for this destructive, user-targeted behaviour?

:[[User:RFmedic|RFmedic]] ([[User talk:RFmedic|talk]]) 04:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::The diff is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Water-fuelled_car&diff=245804997&oldid=245773284 here]. You added some information on a patent, and made some unsourced claims. Do you know how easy it is to get a patent? The USPTO is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and I've got a feeling [http://www.rexresearch.com/ this] isn't either. Please go ahead and read [[WP:V]], [[WP:RS]], and [[WP:FRINGE]] -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 04:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Do you know how easy it is to make a Usenet posting?

:::Do you also know how easy it is to find the {{cn}} tag?

:::[[User:RFmedic|RFmedic]] ([[User talk:RFmedic|talk]]) 04:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::If you don't understand the difference between citing a usenet post, and citing a Sunday Times article with a link to a usenet copy of it, you probably shouldn't be editing Wikipedia. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 04:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Where does it say I can copy news articles into Usenet postings?

:::::Show me the exact guildline please?

:::::Dr. [[Andrija Puharich]] has an article, that makes the MD a reliable source. He can make claims about Water Fueled Cars when ever he likes to.

:::::I added his lectures, I added his patent, I added his article.

:::::And what did we have on the free energy suppression article? An large chunk of opinion that isn't even worthy of being on the article talk page?

:::::[[User:RFmedic|RFmedic]] ([[User talk:RFmedic|talk]]) 04:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::Again, have you read [[WP:RS]]? I don't see anything about having an article making you a reliable source. I would have an issue with an article claiming a particle physics breakthrough and citing [[Uri Geller]], and he has a '''bigger''' article!! -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 04:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


:::::::There is no breakthrough the article is full of disclaimers denouncing the invention a hoax and a conspiracy theory.

:::::::Why did you bring Geller into the discussion?

:::::::What is to be considered a copyright violation in your book?

:::::::[[User:RFmedic|RFmedic]] ([[User talk:RFmedic|talk]]) 04:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Did you read what I typed, or merely respond to the words as separate concepts? -- [[User:Consumed Crustacean|Consumed Crustacean]] <small>([[User talk:Consumed Crustacean|talk]])</small> 04:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


::::::::RFmedic is claiming the link is to an unreliable source (Usenet) and that it's a copyvio. First, the link is not unreliable -- I am looking at the same article on Lexis Nexus , and it's word-for-word identical to the usenet posting. Only that doesn't do our readers much good, since Lexis Nexus requires a subscription (which I can access through my university's proxy). That's why we provide a link to the usenet posting of the article. We don't have to - it's entirely optional - but it makes things easier for our readers. RFmedic's action in tagging the section was unreferenced was not only unwarranted, but disruptive. 
::::::::Second of all, claiming it is a copyvio doesn't make it so. Frankly, given the transformative nature of the [http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy.hydrogen/browse_thread/thread/bd6c96c6b98ce732/8ee0acb80e943e21?hl=endc310437cd1cee1e7#8ee0acb80e943e21 the discussion thread there] (to educate and critique), whoever posted it has a pretty good case for fair use. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 05:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)



You write:
:''Now he removed the explanation that Free Energy conspiracies are probably wrong because "the standar for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability, not truth".''
The section didn't cite any sources but it indeed claimed the suppression is not real and wrong. Then you write:

:''I drop any good faith assumptions right now. That argument was seriously lame and obviously made up in order to remove stuff he doesn't like.'' 

Drop good faith?

The large chunk of nonsense opinion discussing solar panels on the white house is totally irrelevant to the specific suppression cases listed on the page.

If they are really suppression cases, I have no idea. But you feel the need to explain your POV to the reader without citing any sources?

It has become abundantly clear to me there are some users who want to overrule the cited sources with opinion pieces.

Reportedly, Exxon mobile has dedicated 16 million towards this effort.

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html

Whoever wrote it has a pretty good case for suppression.

[[User:RFmedic|RFmedic]] ([[User talk:RFmedic|talk]]) 05:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

RFmedic has been indefinitely blocked by yours truly.—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 05:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
: Should a checkuser be performed? [[User:Verbal|<span style="color:#CC7722; font-family:Papyrus;">'''Verbal'''</span>]] <small>[[User talk:Verbal#top|<span style="color:grey; font-family:Papyrus;">chat</span>]]</small> 06:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Why? Of whom would the user be a sockpuppet? Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Ip claiming relation, changing page ==

{{Resolved}} User given 48 hour vacation '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 07:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
An IP at {{user|67.234.104.242}} is changing the [[Julianna Rose Mauriello]] page, claiming to be her brother. After another editor tried to talk to him about [[WP:COI]], I tried to explain to him about reliable sources and the usual. In response, I got this edit summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Julianna_Rose_Mauriello&diff=prev&oldid=245840908] that says "we can fight about this all night" and this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dayewalker&diff=prev&oldid=245843535] on my talk page, which claims someone from wikipedia told them to make the edits. The spelling and mannerisms make me think we're dealing with a kid here, but I don't want to edit war on this article. If an admin could have a look-see, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User taDayewalker|talk]]) 07:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've given him a warning, if he continues a short block may be in order. '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 07:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Oh, just a note. According to the article, Julianna lives in New York. This IP resolves to Florida. Make of that what you will. '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 07:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

actually i am in philedelphia at college. Make that what you will.
A short block for vandalism of my sisters page, you mean the crap you guys post on it?
I thought wikipedia wanted truth, not random bs. Remove my sisters page please.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.234.104.242|67.234.104.242]] ([[User talk:67.234.104.242|talk]]) 07:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


I made this post 15 minutes before you guys started crap here. Why didnt you post on the post I made? Trying to skirt he issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#my_sisters_page  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.234.104.242|67.234.104.242]] ([[User talk:67.234.104.242|talk]]) 07:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Ip has reverted again here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Julianna_Rose_Mauriello&diff=prev&oldid=245846495]. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 07:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::IP was blocked for 3RR violation; asked for unblock and called his opponents pedophiles, so page locked and block extended to 48h. We're done here for the moment. By the by, he also came to [[WP:AN]]. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 07:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Thanks Jéské- I was trying to post that I blocked him and for some reason it wouldn't save. I'll add the resolved tag. '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 07:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Null persp.  I noticed the AN thread before I noticed this one, anywhoo, and was the first there to see that truly obnoxious unblock request. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 07:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I Posted this on the [[WP:AN]] thread, and thought a 2nd set of eyes wouldn't hurt on this. Can someone oversight the email address posted by the IP in one of the edit summaries on the [[Julianna Rose Mauriello]] page? [[User:Wildthing61476|Wildthing61476]] ([[User talk:Wildthing61476|talk]]) 13:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I've deleted that edit; oversighting probably isn't needed. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 13:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::That'll work too, thanks :) [[User:Wildthing61476|Wildthing61476]] ([[User talk:Wildthing61476|talk]]) 13:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
== Whippletheduck's block extended ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #f9fcf9; margin-right: .5em; padding: 6px;">[[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Resolved. </span>{{#if: |<span style="font-size: 85%;">{{{1}}}</span>}}</div>

Because {{vandal|Whippletheduck}} was persistent in their unblock requests that they are still determined to make edits like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Survivor:_Thailand&diff=prev&oldid=245364683 this] after their 48-hour block expires, indicating serious problems with understanding of [[WP:BLP]], [[WP:V]], [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:NOT]], I've extended it to indef. Posting here for review. [[User:MaxSem|Max<span style="font-size:large;">''S''</span>em]]<sup>([[User talk:MaxSem|Han shot first!]])</sup> 07:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
:Personally, I think I would have just let him sit out the 48 hours and see if he does jump right back into the same edits - he does sound like he's trying to conform even if he's not really got the hang of it. But I'm not going to disagree with your extension of the block as he has been distinctly disruptive despite repeated warnings. Even if the block had been left at 48hr, I think it would have been with the distinct implication of 'any further edit-warring and you're gone'. ~ [[User:Mazca|<span style="color:#228b22;">'''m'''a'''z'''c'''a'''</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mazca|'''t''']]|[[Special:Contributions/Mazca|'''c''']]</sup> 07:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
::I'm in favor of the extension being dropped back to 48 hours.  Yes, he was being disruptive, and defensive, and rude.  But he's also a new editor and more importantly is making progress in understanding Wikipedia.  In his unblock reason he has presented a source for the edits he wants to make and has tried to defend its reliability.  He's agreed to engage in talk page discussion.  We ought to let him back in -- if not immediately, then at the end of the original 48 hours.  [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 13:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I would be in favor of lifting the block with the explicit instructions "If you continue to edit war, you will be indefinately blocked '''even if your version of the article is right'''. He seems to misunderstand the nature of an edit war block, and seems to feel that just because he has found a source, he gets to force others to accept it. He doesn't, and his changes still need to be confirmed via consensus. I say lift it, but let him know he is on his last leg, and to tread cautiously. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 13:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'd suggest a compromise, and reset the 48 hour block, but definitely remove the indefinite block. Gives 48 hours to try to make sure he understands the conditions of the unblock and the policies we have around here about edit-warring.  Thoughts?  [[User:Fritzpoll|Fritzpoll]] ([[User talk:Fritzpoll|talk]]) 16:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I've unblocked now.  I left a note that should be along the lines Jayron was intending.  Note that the 48 hour block would, at this point, have expired.  [[User:Mangojuice|Mango]][[Special:Contributions/Mangojuice|<span style="color:orange">'''juice'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Mangojuice|talk]]</sup> 18:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've read and will comply with the above directives: I'll keep the discussion of the edit to the DISCUSSION page of the article and hope we find consensus.  Now at what point can I say 'You know what...it meets NPOV standard; It mets the No Original Research Standard' and it meets the Verifiability standard, can Scorp still hold it up over the CONSENSUS issue?    

Also, as a side note, well, it would have helped to have gotten my opinions out here on this specific page it seems it might have been resolved faster if one could put in their response here even while blocked.  just a suggestion in the future that it might help  thanks [[User:Whippletheduck|Whippletheduck]] ([[User talk:Whippletheduck|talk]]) 19:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think you were too quick in unblocking him. The user is a troll, and has left several none-too-friendly messages on my talk page promising to create pages that were BLP violations, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Scorpion0422&diff=prev&oldid=241706684][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Scorpion0422&diff=prev&oldid=238419443], posting rude comments in other sections [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AScorpion0422&diff=245156198&oldid=245133713] and posting attacks in old talk page sections. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Survivor_contestants&diff=prev&oldid=238746783] -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 21:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Wallamoose]] ==

{{resolved|Not a legal threat}}

Greetings all, here I bring you [[User:Wallamoose]], who for the life of me, I can't exactly figure out at this present moment in time.  I came upon this user while at Gwen's talk page, after another user reported this user.  The other user doesn't matter at this moment.

The two users argued over I think..  a content dispute.  Eventually I believe both were blocked for 3RR.  Wallamoose contested his block, and was declined.  This happened several times.  Wallamoose even when so far as to threaten legal action, threatening to go up to the supreme court where possible.  This of course was declined as well, and the page was protected, set to expire as soon as the block did.

As soon as the protection did expire, the user in question then proceeded to create a ''log'' of the events that had transpired from his or her point of view, and then again with ''admins in general.''  These last two contributions of which I speak appear to be something along the lines of [[WP:POINT]].

Thank you all for your time.— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]] /<sub>[[User:Daedalus969/RR|Improve]]</sub>''' 09:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::Not a legal threat, Wallamoose only wrote a (very lame, sorry Wallamoose) metaphorical log about his block. I'll leave a note for him though. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 10:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::After digging through the page history, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wallamoose&diff=next&oldid=245519376 I might have to disagree.]— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]] /<sub>[[User:Daedalus969/RR|Improve]]</sub>''' 10:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::[[Johnnie Cochran]] is dead. This is not a legal threat, it's a try at creative writing to make a point. I do agree though, that the post was utterly unhelpful and shows Wallamoose still doesn't understand why he was blocked. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 10:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Oh...     

:::::I didn't know he was dead, or that he was a notable person....

:::::Oops..  I guess..— '''[[User:Daedalus969|<span style="color:green;">Dæ</span>]][[User talk:Daedalus969|dαlus]] [[Special:Contributions/Daedalus969|<sup style="color:green;">Contribs</sup>]] /<sub>[[User:Daedalus969/RR|Improve]]</sub>''' 10:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::::(ec)He actually came by ANI earlier tonight and asked if the "story" on his page broke any rules: [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Clarence_Thomas]]. I've found him to be a pretty reasonable guy (no excuse for 4 unblock requests though). I hope he'll delete the "story", or delete the lawyer line, upon reading Gwen's note.  thanks --[[User:Guyzero|guyzero]] | [[User talk:Guyzero|talk]] 10:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I think Wallamoose is grasping for some understanding of what has happened, but is still muddling his notions of how he thinks Wikipedia "should" be run with how Wikipedia ''is'' run. I wish he'd read some project pages. Had he read the unblock guide, he could have written an unblock request that would have gotten him unblocked straight off. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 10:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I agree and think the "story" was intended as cathartic humor in response to the block and zany unblock requests. I've found Wallamoose to be interested in learning and following policy and working with the group on a fairly controversial article, and he's made great contributions there. You are right that his transition would be easier by reading and watching a bit, but he's opting to learn by doing, which is [[WP:BOLD|cool too]] I think. Maybe [[WP:ADOPT|adoption]] by an uninvolved seasoned editor might help give him another avenue for start-up mentorship and advice? --[[User:Guyzero|guyzero]] | [[User talk:Guyzero|talk]] 10:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:This entire thread strikes me as making mountains out of molehills.  Wallamoose screwed up, got a 1 day block, and blew off some steam on his talk page.  I see no impending threat from him to the integritiy of Wikipedia, and thus '''no need for admin action'''.  The rest of this discussion really doesn't belong here... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 10:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

:That's spot on what I was getting at. [[User:Gwen Gale|Gwen Gale]] ([[User talk:Gwen Gale|talk]]) 11:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

::I much prefer to be characterized as a mountain rather than a mole hill, so if this metaphorical comparison is in any way an attempt to diminish my notability, I reject it totally. I trust you are referring to the "thread" and not me personally. As a measure of my abiding generosity and as an act of good faith consistent with the guidelines and policies supported, though not always lived up to at Wikipedia, I will let your comment stand. "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For you are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they confort me." Psalm 23:4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9WyeVQd6e0&feature=related
([[User:Wallamoose|Wallamoose]] ([[User talk:Wallamoose|talk]]) 17:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC))

::: Humourous?  Yes.  Creative?  Yes.  Legal threat?  Never. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 17:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

== Possible action needing to be taken ==

{{Resolved|School is dealing with it from here. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)}}
In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jon_Bon_Jovi&diff=245909623&oldid=245595800 this edit], a user threatens "I WILL BLOW UP A SCHOOL". Shouldn't there be something we do about this? The talk page has no school IP template, so this is out of my realm of knowledge. Some assistance would be appreciated. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:IP info:
<pre>
  network: Organization-Name;I: Hannah Beardsley Middle School 
  network: Street-Address;I: 515 E. Crystal Lake 
  network: City;I: Crystal Lake 
  network: State;I: IL 
  network: Postal-Code;I: 60014 
  network: Country-Code;I: US </pre>

:I'm not sure this is a legitimate threat though. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 16:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Probably not. It would be sensible to contact the school though, imo. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|How&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on]] ([[User talk:How do you turn this on#top|talk]]) 16:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thank you, and I agree, but what are the negative aspects of taking it seriously, just in case? [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It would merely cause unnecessary panic at the school. Also, it would waste someone's time contacting them. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|How&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on]] ([[User talk:How do you turn this on#top|talk]]) 16:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::And of course if we didn't, and a school was blown up... [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 16:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::It does, indeed, simply seem like genuine vandalism. However, it might be prudent to contact the school. IMO, it would be more tragic to have a school blown up than to waste someone's time. Cheers, &ndash;[[User:Juliancolton|Juliancolton]] [[User talk:Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''T'''ropical</sup>]] [[Special:contributions/Juliancolton|<sup style="color:#666660;">'''C'''yclone</sup>]] 16:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::(EC x 3) Maybe that's what someone said about the Twin Towers. >_>  Maybe it's best to let the school decide if it should be taken seriously or not. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I've e-mailed the school's administration (more to get the little twit who is vandalizing in trouble than anything else). [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 16:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::(ec) Jennavecia: {{tl|sofixit}}: you are more than welcome to pick up the telephone and bother the school yourself.  There's no need to continue to make a fuss about it here. John Reaves: Indeed, maybe a suspension or some lines will teach him not to screw around about things like this.  [[User_talk:HiDrNick|<span style="color:#CC3300">Hi</span><span style="color:#0088FF"><b>DrNick</b></span>]]! 16:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes, Nick. Already on it. Now go away since you have nothing constructive to contribute. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Tell them to check there e-mail.  Trying to explain how to check a diff to someone over the phone is not easy (trust me). [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 16:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Okay. Thanks, John. The principal has the tech guy attempting to figure out what computer it came from so they can maybe figure out which student did it. He appreciated the email and call very much. [[User:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#9400D3">'''ل'''enna</span>]][[User talk:Jennavecia|<span style="font-family:Lucida Handwriting Italic;color:#00BFFF">vecia</span>]] 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Is it time for another 12-month schoolblock? The little... contributors didn't waste much time getting back to vandalism after the previous one expired.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 17:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::: One could always offer to the techie that has already been contacted that we could block anonymous edits from that IP range, essentially permanently :-)  <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 17:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Already blocked for 6 mo. [[User:Vsmith|Vsmith]] ([[User talk:Vsmith|talk]]) 17:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::This may relate to [http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2008/10/17/news/local/doc48f8604934f7d380107960.txt this]. [[User talk:John Reaves|John Reaves]] 20:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Doris Day]] ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #f9fcf9; margin-right: .5em; padding: 6px;">[[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Resolved. </span>{{#if: Misunderstanding. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)|<span style="font-size: 85%;">Misunderstanding. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span>}}</div>

I have tried 5 times to revert back to an older version I edited, waiting inbetween doing it different ways, etc. but it fails.  It ACTS like reverted fine, but the history shows nothing.  The article was edited by an IP doing misc tests (not vandalism per se).  Something is amis. [[User:Pharmboy|P<small><strong>HARMBOY</strong></small>]] ([[User talk:Pharmboy|<small><strong>TALK</strong></small>]]) 22:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:It looks to me as though the IP made two edits and then deleted both of them. Your "reversion" doesn't show up because it's not making any change in the article. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 22:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


That makes sense. ah.  Mine was a safety reversion due to the '''four''' edits I saw.
:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doris_Day&diff=next&oldid=245129205
:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doris_Day&diff=next&oldid=245975954
:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doris_Day&diff=next&oldid=245976101
:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doris_Day&diff=next&oldid=245976567
[[User:Pharmboy|P<small><strong>HARMBOY</strong></small>]] ([[User talk:Pharmboy|<small><strong>TALK</strong></small>]]) 22:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Excuse me barging in here, but I've seen this behavior quite a few times: new users adding some vandalism-like content and them immediately reverting it themselves. Are these Grawp-like accounts gaming the system to rack-up edits? Most of them don't seem to do anything else after these odd edits... [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 23:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I've always assumed that they (kids, mostly) are just trying the editing process out, perhaps having found it hard to believe that they are actually able to change something on The Mighty Web. [[User:Deor|Deor]] ([[User talk:Deor|talk]]) 23:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::If we're going to discuss this, I beg to (somewhat) differ. In my experience, kids typically leave their edits alone, they don't revert. Not only that, but kids' edits tend to be very typical to generational trends, combined with the everlasting appeal for taboo topics. As such, I don't think a kid would go for "bestest" and adding a dash only to remove both in the next edit -- a kid would go for "poo" or worse, depending on their age, and would not revert themselves. Teenagers go for politically incorrect stuff (e.g. "<article subject> is gay", etc). If I were to bet on a profile, I'd say this person was a noob in their early/mid 20s. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I think Deor is right.  It's easy to become cynical, but there are lots of kids out there who really don't ''want'' to mess up Wikipedia but can't resist the temptation to find out whether they really have the power to. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 00:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== {{User|Sprintinpace}} and {{User|Gazevod}} ==

These accounts have both made edits to user subpages belonging to sockpuppets of {{User|Yorkshirian}}, by removing all content from the pages and redirecting them to the user pages.  {{User|Sprintinpace}} on [[User:The Renton/pit]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:The_Renton/pit&diff=prev&oldid=245985128] and {{User|Gazevod}} on [[User talk:True as Blue/arch]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:True_as_Blue/arch&diff=prev&oldid=245984884].  They don't look like new users, and as more than one account is used, this appears to be a violation of [[WP:SOCK]], although I'm unsure who the puppeteer is and whether any more accounts have done anything similar. —[[User talk:Snigbrook|Snigbrook]] 00:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:They should both be indeffed as socks of Yorkshirian, as they are editing subpages of his socks, pages that not many other newcomers would just happen to stumble upon. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 01:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
== {{user|ShadowOne333}} ==

For the past month or so, ShadowOne333 has persisted on adding an advertisement for a fan-made online petition to the [[Resident Evil 5]] article. I have issued the user [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ShadowOne333#Resident_Evil_5 two 3RR warnings], though the user has continued to engage with other editors by waiting out the 24-hour limit. In an attempt to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resident_Evil_5#Wii_Petition civilly diffuse the situation], I posted a topic that addressed the issue, but the aforementioned user has ignored the topic and persisted to advertise his issue. I have issued the user a level-4 warning for advertising, and am requesting further advice/input to deal with this issue. --<small><span style="border: 1px solid">[[user:StarScream1007|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:#CC0000"> &nbsp;StarScream1007&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:StarScream1007|<span style="background-color:#003399; color:white">&nbsp;►Talk&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 04:08, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:An advertising warning, and subsequent warnings should have been issued before. If the user continues to be disruptive and advertise, then he should be blocked. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 04:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Blocked for 31 hours - he was warned, but it was this diff in particular [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Resident_Evil_5&diff=prev&oldid=245820922] that made me decide to block him. [[User:Dougweller|Doug Weller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 05:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Endorse block, disruptive editing shouldn't be tolerated. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 08:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:In the event the user should continue to make disruptive edits, should I issue a warning, and report him to AIV if needed? Or should I post a follow-up thread here with a link to this topic? thanks. --<small><span style="border: 1px solid">[[user:StarScream1007|'''<span style="background-color:White; color:#CC0000"> &nbsp;StarScream1007&nbsp;</span>''']][[User talk:StarScream1007|<span style="background-color:#003399; color:white">&nbsp;►Talk&nbsp;</span>]] </span></small> 06:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== Block review of [[User:Ethel Aardvark]] ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #f9fcf9; margin-right: .5em; padding: 6px;">[[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Resolved. </span>{{#if: Admin requesting second opinion -- all is well. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)|<span style="font-size: 85%;">Admin requesting second opinion -- all is well. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 23:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span>}}</div>

Requesting review of my block. I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AEthel_Aardvark blocked] [[User:Ethel Aardvark]] for edit warring and other problems, chiefly the removal of sourced information and references from the article [[deforestation]] (most recently [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deforestation&diff=245813273&oldid=245730184]). I had previously protected both the deforestation article and [[rainforest]] for a week to stop the edit warring. Several warnings about removal of referenced material have been left on the [[User talk:Ethel Aardvark|users talk]]. A dispute has been brewing between User:Ethel Aardvark and [[User:Asidemes]] and both had accused the other of vandalism. Asidemes has been adding sourced material to various related articles and Ethyl has been removing the material. [[User:Vsmith|Vsmith]] ([[User talk:Vsmith|talk]]) 15:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Aardvark's edits were disruptive. I think the 48 hours block is justified. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::48hrs is plenty of time to go Quantity Surveying. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 16:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm curious about the userpage. The content was written by a banned troll (see [[User:Premier]]), but it's possible Ethel doesn't know it's there. I had seen Ethel on a few environmental related topics making rather pointed edits, but nothing significant enough to raise here. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 12:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[United States presidential election debates, 2008]] ==

<div style="margin: 1em;" class="resolved"><span style="border: 1px solid #aaa; background: #f9fcf9; margin-right: .5em; padding: 6px;">[[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Resolved. </span>{{#if: Editorial matter. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 21:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)|<span style="font-size: 85%;">Editorial matter. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 21:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)</span>}}</div>

The page in question is protected so I can not edit it, and there is a sentence that uses weasel words and has no reliable source, so it should be removed according to Wikipedia policies. I know this might not be the right place to ask in, but can someone help please?[[Special:Contributions/84.13.172.146|84.13.172.146]] ([[User talk:84.13.172.146|talk]]) 18:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:The right place to ask is that article's talk page -- I'm sure a lot of people are watching it these days. And the page is only semi-protected, no administrator intervention is required. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 18:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:: I am sorry for asking here, but I have already asked in the article's talk page ([[Talk:United States presidential election debates, 2008#3rd debate]]), and even though the sentence appears to be blatantly against WP:NPOV and WP:RS, it hasn't been removed. So can any user remove it, please?[[Special:Contributions/84.13.172.146|84.13.172.146]] ([[User talk:84.13.172.146|talk]]) 19:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::: That is an editorial matter entirely, and administrators have no special prerogatives in that area. For the record I don't find anything wrong or partisan about that sentence -- it doesn't make any weaselish comparison between candidates, since it's all about McCain. But then again, this is really not the place for this discussion. --[[User:Gutza|Gutza]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Gutza|T]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gutza&action=edit&section=new T+]</sup></small> 19:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::It lacks a source, and I'm sure there are many. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 10:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:76.126.193.161]], Bradley Effect ==

{{userlinks|76.126.193.161}} keeps on adding a poorly phrased sentence to this article by edit warring, and has completely refused to talk it over, despite attempts to engage in discussion and a warning on his talk page. I would like to request a block of this user, if only to get him to engage in discussion. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 19:58, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:If he has violated [[WP:3RR]], the [[WP:AN3|3RR noticeboard]] would be a better place for this. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Today the IP made three edits. All of them were to the [[Bradley effect]] ‎article and all of them were reverted.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bradley_effect&action=history][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/76.126.193.161] The IP has stopped editing, so there is no point in blocking it. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 22:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
I swear if I have a nonadministrator close one of my threads one more time... in any case, 3RR was not violated, but the user has completely violated [[WP:EW]], and the user needs to talk, and the user has continued to make edits. And, to non-admins: please do ''not'' close this thread. [[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] ([[User talk:The Evil Spartan|talk]]) 02:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::: ...By the lack of powers vested in me by the Province of Wiki, '''I do hearby close''' ... <small>my other Firefox window</small>. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 11:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== User repeatedly uploading images with no source ==

{{resolved|Blocked for two weeks; images in question deleted.}}

{{Userlinks|Jarajet89‎}} appears to be repeatedly uploading images with no sources: indeed, his talk page consists almost entirely of notices about needing source information. His [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AJarajet89 block log] suggests he's been blocked for this sort of thing before. I'm leaving this for someone else to decide because I don't really work with images much and think it would be better to have someone else look this over (I only know about it because I had his talk watchlisted from my recent block of him for edit warring). [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 06:10, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

:Agreed; this needs to be considered. The editor appears to continue to not respond to requests for communication whatsoever, and the talk page is a solid mass of image upload issues. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 06:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

::Blocked two weeks, all recent uploads speedied except those that had been correctly FUR'd by others in the meantime. Some of these may have been salvagable, feel free to undelete or reupload if anybody really wants them. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Vielen dank. [[User:Heimstern|Heimstern Läufer]] [[User talk:Heimstern|(talk)]] 11:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

== Vandalism by user using sockpuppet IP ==

{{resolved}}
An anonymous editor went to a vandalising spree on this article [[Mangalorean Catholics]] today between 08:53 and 09:44 today (see [[Special:Contributions/122.169.11.242]]) 

Although the IP has been blocked, we have reason to believe that it was a user [[User:Sanfy|Sanfy]] who was behind this IP as he is the only other editor who has vandalised this article before[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=240872056&oldid=240871719], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=240871280&oldid=240870980], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=240684453&oldid=240683957] .  Also this IP has shown a similar disruptive pattern of editing as [[USer:Sanfy]] and has recieved warnings from me and from [[User:Kensplanet]] in the past which he hasnt taken seriously. The anon Ip has also targetted  Kensplanet's talk page twice [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kensplanet&diff=prev&oldid=246065689] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kensplanet&diff=prev&oldid=246064912].

Also anon has redirected this article to "Goan Mangaloreans"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=prev&oldid=246064663] and "Mangalorean Goans"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=prev&oldid=246064447] which Sanfy had also done in the recent past[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=239987172&oldid=239987117].

A look at the contibutions of the [[Special:Contributions/122.169.11.242|IP 122.169.11.242]] and [[Special:Contributions/Sanfy|Sanfy]] clearly shows that Sanfy was incactive while the IP was active and only came back after the IP was blocked. Sanfy's edits are usually 2-3 minutes apart while there is a large gap which fits into to the anon IPs work time.

We have tolerated Sanfy so far because he has been making some good contributions even if in a haphazard manner and often violative of the rules. But this time he has gone too far. If a checkuser can confirm that it is indeed Sanfy, this is a serious matter and Sanfy deserves to be punished. --[[User:Deepak D'Souza|Deepak D'Souza]] 10:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:Try [[WP:RFCU]] for checkuser requests. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 12:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::Made a request at RFCU. See [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Sanfy]]. Will you be closing this thread? --[[User:Deepak D'Souza|Deepak D'Souza]] 12:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
== Noroton again ==

{{Resolved|Noroton blocked for three weeks. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 12:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)}}

{{User5|Noroton}}, fresh off 1-week block for tendentious editing (incivilities, edit warring, etc)[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANoroton&diff=244283605&oldid=244280936] on [[Barack Obama]]-related articles under article probation ([[Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation]]), vowed during block to devote himself to "stopping" me,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ANoroton&diff=244294690&oldid=244283605] immediately begins to provoke trouble with me and other editors claiming an "ongoing conflict", "harassment", etc.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=246000504][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=246001339][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=246015670][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=246019278&oldid=246017874].  I am not asking for any specific thing and do not wish to engage with this editor - perhaps we can nip this in the bud before he does anything blockable.  Thanks, [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 02:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

*Gave a final notice. This type of continued @#$^ is simply unacceptable, and to declare your stalking and harassment intentions in an unblock request is simply unexcuseable. Any further harassment from this account will result in a block. Noroton, disengage from Wikidemon and others; find another article to edit. You are not willing to abide by the probation set forth, and you are not willing to work with other editors. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 03:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::An angry ultimatum from a blustering admin over week-old unblock request really should be accompanied by proof with a quote that I intend to stalk or harass. So provide it, Seicer. Are you going to block me for pursuing dispute resolution at an RfC or ArbCom? Is that what you call "stalking"? Because that's the only "pursuing" of Wikidemon I ever said I would do. If my complaints in those forums have no merit and constitute some kind of harassment and stalking, why don't you let ArbCom's calmer heads deal with my behavior. If I open an RfC on Wikidemon, are you going to block me for that? Are you fulminating now because I was mad when I responded to my block? Three other admins were involved in that block or in reviewing it, and somehow they didn't find my statements "simply inexcuseable". Do you find angry comments delivered in unblock requests inexcusable, Seicer? Perhaps you should redact your own. I'm not the one who approached Wikidemon at the [[Talk:Bill Ayers presidential election controversy]] discussion, he's the one who approached me. Does that sound like some kind of stalked editor? , knowing that he'd gotten me so mad just a week before. Now I don't suppose you'd consider that [[WP:CIV#Engaging in incivility]], would you? If not, please run down the bulleted list to the sixth item, about taunting. 

:::Unfortunately for Wikidemon, he didn't get me mad. In that discussion, knowing that he just had a dispute with me, his first comment directed at me was to tell me not to address other editors in even the most glancing way [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=246001197&oldid=246000504], while at the same time ignoring far worse comments from other editors in the same discussion.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=245887255&oldid=245810468] Which I pointed out to him. I suggested that he just ignore me if he didn't have a substantive point to make relative to the discussion.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=prev&oldid=246002926] His reaction to that was to goad further. My response was to tell him a second time that his comment was not constructive, and at the same time continue a discussion with a third editor -- and cross out the comment that Wikidemon appeared to find offensive.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=246015670&oldid=246009200] Now, as I was discussing the article and the article title with Eric the Red 2, Wikidemon unilaterally tried to shut down the discussion, putting a box around it and a title declaring the comments "off topic". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=246017874&oldid=246017718] Now Seicer, who's misbehaving at this point? 

:::Seicer, in addressing a complaint about [[WP:CIV]], why don't you comment civilly? You know, the most outrageous behavior in this case today isn't coming from me or even Wikidemon -- it's coming from you. You've blatantly misrepresented my words, which are on my talk page for anyone to see. You've blatantly threatened me in vague ways, telling me to stay off -- what? Any page that Wikidemon happens to edit? You couldn't wait for a consensus at this spot to form? You couldn't wait to hear my side of it? You couldn't look into the matter more than a brief glance at Wikidemon's tendentious diffs? You address me with a conclusion that doesn't even indicate you're interested in hearing me out. Look at my first edits as I came off this block and then tell me I deserved the enraged comments you left on my talk page and just above. Seicer, you need to disengage from me; find another editor to talk down to. You are not willing to abide by basic standards of admin behavior, and you are not willing to get past the surface of a complaint before fulminating and threatening.

:::In my unblock requests, I told other editors and admins that I would keep my cool in dealing with this very difficult editor and I would handle our dispute in the proper way. Since coming off the block, I have interacted with Wikidemon civilly and deflected his goading. I also asked him politely on his talk page if he would accept a proposal I had made for a third party to address the most salient part of our differences (after ignoring the comment for a while, he refused -- now I'll respond in accordance with policy).

:::Wikidemon has now reverted my revert of his closing of the discussion.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABill_Ayers_presidential_election_controversy&diff=246021196&oldid=246019861] Does anyone else get disgusted that editors block off comments of other editors on talk pages that way? Without even getting consensus? That appears to be a violation of [[WP:TALK]]. Who's the aggressor here? Take a look at the new subtitle Wikidemon slapped on the part of the discussion I participated in: "Discussion of editor behavior". And yet Wikidemon had no complaints when he discussion had already featured comments such as ''This is a disgrace. This article has been hit over and over and over again with sleazy attempts to raise its 'hit count', and this is just one more.'' (Flatterworld 13:23, 17 Oct), ''there should have been a proper discussion before choosing this title.'' (Scjessey  13:59, 17 Oct) ''I agree with Flatterworld, it is unseemly to change the title on ten minutes'' (Pete Tillman (talk) 17:20, 17 Oct). Now tell me that Wikidemon was forced to start interacting with me because my comments were out of bounds after all this. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 05:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

How much patience does Wikipedia have? Noroton has proven that he is in no way able to participate in a neutral and civil manner to any election-related article. I propose a topic ban is certainly in order. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 03:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:Too much. See, this is where things go wrong. Editors like Noroton are given too many chances. It's clear he has no intention of changing his behaviour. No matter how many times he's blocked he intends to return and edit tendentiously and disruptively. The simplest and most effective solution here is not a topic ban or similar well intentioned tolerance, it's to issue an indefinite block. [[User:Xdenizen|X MarX the Spot]] ([[User talk:Xdenizen|talk]]) 03:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::I concur. A topic ban would do nothing but provoke the hornet's nest in Noroton. He's already made it clear that he intends to use this account to stalk and harass other users, and to use all means possible to do so -- including abusing various processes that we have here at Wikipedia. Further disruption will result in an extended block, but another administrator can come along and extend it at their will with probably little to no remorse. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 03:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::''He's already made it clear that he intends to use this account to stalk and harass other users, and to use all means possible to do so -- including abusing various processes that we have here at Wikipedia.'' You know, Seicer, you're engaging in violations of [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:CIV]]. Back up your slander with evidence. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 05:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::::You pretty much threatened a single Wikipedian on your talk page not once, but three times, in a way that suggested you would not stop until you had "changed" Wikipedia's perception of that person. I suggested that might not be such a good approach and your response contained a veiled attack towards my contributions at AN/I. You're certainly not convincing me, standing on the sidelines here, that you're here for any other purpose but to malign and harass others of opposing viewpoints. I'm not saying that others have behaved perfectly - indeed, I have found quite a bit that concerns me. But in general I see that they have in the main only responded to comments from yourself and those who agree with you, and contributed to open discussions.
::::Oh, and yes, sometimes I do make flippant or humorous off-the-cuff remarks on AN/I. There is an old saying that if you can't see the funny side of life you would soon go insane. I think sometimes it's possible to forget this is a website (as opposed to real life) and most of the people who read here get put off by intense conflict between the same parties after several months. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 05:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::''Pretty much'' eh? I told Seicer that his or her attacks should be accompanied by proof. Your immediate response is to repeat the attacks without proof. ''in a way that suggested you would not stop until you had "changed: Wikipedia's perception of that person.'' Not quite. I said I would present evidence. Orderinchaos, you haven't been "standing on the sidelines" for some time. When Clubjuggle, a very widely respected editor at the Obama talk page, asked you, as an admin, for help with a problematic editor who was doing far worse than anything I've been accused of by Wikidemon, you blew off the request. And when it turned out that the problematic editor was embedded in the Obama campaign, you cast aspersions on Clubjuggle, the editor who uncovered it, although the vast consensus was that Clubjuggle had acted rightly. I recall criticizing you back then. I'll find the diffs for that. Orderinchaos, do you consider it sleazy to take words from an editor who is angry at being blocked and is talking about pursuing dispute resolution and adhering to WP:CIV and then bring up the words a week later, treating them as if they were some kind of coldly thought-out blueprint for mayhem? Do you feel that you've just treated me the way you would want to be treated? -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 06:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::In general I think bringing off-wiki stuff about people on-wiki is unethical, and if I recall (and I am remembering back a long time now), that was what I perceived to be going on there. In this instance I clearly read your choice of wording - repeated in different forms on three occasions - to be a clear threat to certain other Wikipedians. It's not what way you do it but what you're doing that I have a problem with - in a word, campaigning. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 11:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Sadly, I've come to much the same conclusion as those above me - although I believe Noroton is ''capable'' of being a better editor, on this issue he is in my view tendentious to the point of net deficit to the project.  Maybe after the election things will finally calm down. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 05:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::::''Sadly?'' Why "sadly"? You seem rather enthusiastic as you mischaracterize what I've said. ''he is in my view tendentious to the point of net deficit'' Tendentious, eh? As in, not agreeing with my point of view? Perhaps your left-wing POV (as revealed in your blog, where you state you're on the left and where you bemoan the memorializing of 9/11), is just as "tendentious". You know, we all have a right to our POV and shouldn't be skewered for it, but it shouldn't affect the way we treat those who disagree with us. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 06:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::''You're certainly not convincing me, standing on the sidelines here, that you're here for any other purpose but to malign and harass others of opposing viewpoints.'' No one who actually reviewed my editing history would say that. No one who viewed my blog would say that. No one who is honest. I'll assume you said that without looking. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 06:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::It takes some effort to find a blog post I wrote 6 years ago when I was a 24 year old full time student (and somewhat mischaracterise it) merely to attempt to smear my neutrality in a situation where I actually have nothing to lose (I don't edit on US political topics and don't share editing space with any of the editors concerned). I live in Australia, which has entirely different political systems and dynamics. In the US, one has the choice of two right-wing parties - if you don't believe me, go to Political Compass and check out where Obama and Clinton fit on the spectrum. Voters in the US are denied genuine choice because of a system where any vote not for the winner is a wasted vote, and where only parties that are able to raise half a billion have a chance of winning seats. I don't think it takes any partisan leaning to see that as a fundamental waste of resources that could be better spent. Whoever wins, the US won't radically change - big administrations have big inertia.
::::::But these personal views actually have nothing to do with Wikipedia or my work here. I take a somewhat academic view to Wikipedia - essentially our standards and policies are based on good academic practice and etiquette. I support any editor anywhere who edits with good intent and is able to leave partisanship at the door. I cannot support any editor who fights on partisan lines at the expense of encyclopaedic values, even if we would find a lot to agree on in a coffee shop offline. Oh and as for the sadly - I do find it sad when intelligent, capable editors who I've seen do good work act in the way you have of late and when I see pages which could be cooperative endeavours end up on almost indefinite protection or some undeclared state of war. Happens far too often in far too many places. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 11:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Blocked for 3 weeks. Noroton, tendentious means you're disrupting the encyclopedia. It has nothing to do with whether we agree with you or not.--[[User:SarekOfVulcan|SarekOfVulcan]] ([[User talk:SarekOfVulcan|talk]]) 06:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:I hate to be a wanker about this, but he's blanked his page with this edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Noroton&curid=5662883&diff=246053673&oldid=246052868] and "fired" wikipedia. He can certainly blank his talk page, but aren't users supposed to keep blocks and unblock requests up while the block is still in effect? It's a trifle, but after reading over this I have a feeling he'll return at some point, and it might help to have the previous matters tended to. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 08:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::No big deal; if he requests an unblock, I'm sure the admin responding to the request will be able to deal with it. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 10:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Angry comments immediately after being blocked are par for the course and don't much matter. If he comes back in 3 weeks with the same attitude, the admins will be ready to bring the hammer down for good. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
:Appropriately placed block. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 12:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
::Good luck out there, Noroton. Your valuable contributions here will be sorely missed.
::Noroton's bias (and we all have 'em) had been tagged as "pathogenic" by our online encyclopedia's immune system -- whereas Wiki's systemic bias means those of, um, ahem, a more normal bias (a liberal one), escape being so tagged. But there is noone to appeal to, to right this alleged wrong; it's what is![[User:Justmeherenow|<span style="font-family: Mistral ; font-size: 10p"> &nbsp;<math>\sim</math>&nbsp;J''ust''me''here''now</span>]] [[User talk:Justmeherenow|<small>'''''(&nbsp;&nbsp;)'''''</small>]] 18:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)