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== living person subjected to self proclaimed biographer posting slander ==

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Riconosciuto&action=history
the multitude of edits by hag2 on this page come from a woman who assisted a convicted serial killer in the harassment of the family of the subject of the page.  Her posts are not only biased, but are inaccurate and use her self published material for sourcing.  Furthermore, she implicates the subject as being suspicious relative to murders committed convicted murderer, Phillip Arthur Thompson.  She has published my home address and phone number in a link to one of her articles, exposing me to further danger,  I request that she and her associate, Anne Tweedham be blocked from editing Michael Riconosciuto's page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Riconosciuto

^ a b c d e McCullough, Virginia (2008-02-17). "Who is puppet master, Michael Riconosciuto?". Newsmakingnews. Retrieved on 2008-09-08. 
^ McCullough, Virginia (2008-02-18). "Is puppet master Michael Riconosciuto pulling the strings in the Betty Cloer murder trial?". News making news. Retrieved on 2008-09-20. 

One unofficial biographer has noted: "While all these details of young Riconosciuto’s technical abilities were true, Michael also possessed a darker side that severely limited his ability to maximize his scientific talents."[6] According to that biographer, Riconosciuto's "darker side" was a picture of a shadowy individual whose early associations centered him squarely in the nefarious world of illegal drugs, money-laundering, and espionage.[6] The biographer further alleges that during the late-1960s Riconosciuto's on-going criminal associations may have been as an undercover drug informant with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Allegedly, Riconosciuto led a double life in San Francisco [claims of instrumental drug busts] mixing and peddling "acid" in the Haight-Ashbury district.[6] Eventually, his shady background would implicate him in several suspicious crimes: the death of Betty Marie Cloer [7], the death of Vali Delahanty[8], and the disappearance of Valerie McDonald.[9]  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/154.20.55.211|154.20.55.211]] ([[User talk:154.20.55.211|talk]]) 06:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I have opened a case at <s>[[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#http:.2F.2Fwww.newsmaking.com]]</s> [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#http:.2F.2Fwww.newsmakingnews.com]].  Newsmakingnews.com is a horrible site for using as a source for any [[WP:BLP]] related article, providing no editorial oversight and verification of it's contributors works.  Looks to be filled with non-notable self-published works by non-notable writers.  As far as the [[Michael Riconosciuto]] goes, it contains blatant violations of [[WP:BLP]] with allegations of incidents.  I don't have time to go and clean it up myself, as it is 2:14 a.m. where I'm at, but if someone has the time, that article is a disgrace at the moment.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 07:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::fixed the link above, sorry was so late/early this morning.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 19:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Nathaniel Bar-Jonah]] ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nathaniel_Bar-Jonah&diff=243505868&oldid=243505224 diff]
Not sure if this is the right place. It looks like an individual in Lowell, Massachusetts keeps adding unsourced claims to [[Nathaniel Bar-Jonah]] about once a day. The last few days there has been [[User_talk:Just_plain_Bill#Bar_Jonah|this discussion]] on my talk page. __[[User:Just plain Bill|Just plain Bill]] ([[User talk:Just plain Bill|talk]]) 20:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated this entry for deletion.  He doesn't seem to be more than an ordinary child molester and killer.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 20:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:The source given has no content relating to the article subject, let alone any war record (of which there is nothing relevant in the article anyway). Upon review of the comments on your talkpage, this appears to be nothing more than a troll. I shall enforce a weeks break from editing WP, since I doubt there would be much useful comment from this source upon the AfD. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 20:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
== Block template feature preventing blocked user from editing own talkpage ==

I know that this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I am becoming increasingly concerned about the number of instances in which blocked users have been inadvertently or unnecessarily blocked from editing even their own talkpages, as a result of the newly enabled feature on the block template allowing the blocking administrator to so direct. In the case of most blocks, this additional restriction on the blocked user is not necessary. If anything, it will often be counterproductive, in that it stops the user from posting an on-wiki unblock request or engaging in dialog regarding what he or she did that triggered a block and what he or she should do differently in the future.

Administrators should be sure to utilize this feature only where it is clear that there is ''no'' reasonable chance of legitimate input of any kind from the blocked user (e.g., Gra*p vandals) and not in the case of routine blocks, or even blocks based on serious misconduct. Indeed, I am not sure that this feature might not be counterproductive to the point where it should be removed altogether. I certainly don't recall any groundswell of demand for this feature/setting relative to the dozens of other proposed changes patiently waiting in line....

In the same vein, it is my view that the "block this user from sending e-mail" setting should only be utilized in the case of blocked or banned users who have misused the Wikipedia e-mail function or as to whom there is a serious and substantiated risk that they will do so. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 01:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


: The checkbox is close to the block button.  It can easily be unchecked by accident.  [[PEBKAC]] errors are likely. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 01:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

:Please also be aware that there have been instances where this feature has worked incorrectly; one user could not edit his talk page, although the log did not show he was blocked from doing so, and another user was blocked from editing his talk page, although the admin had distinctly not selected that feature.  [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15812 Bugzilla 15812] has been filed, as noted up above.  [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 01:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::At an absolute minimum, shouldn't the feature be revised so that the default is that the blocked user ''can'' edit his or her talkpage, and the blocking administrator would have to check a box to stop the editor from editing that page, rather than the other way around? [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 01:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It is the case at the moment that the box needs to be unchecked to disable talkpage editing - so the default is not to disable editing. I'm not aware yet of a case where someone unchecked the box by mistake, but there does seem to be a bug that has resulted in people not being able to edit their talkpage even though the blocking admin did not uncheck the box. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 02:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

===Proposal to remove the talk page lock feature when blocking===
<small>Made a subheading so people are aware of what is going on here. [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 01:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)</small>

If this becomes too much of a problem I'd support a removal of the feature.  Really, it accomplishes very little that full protection wouldn't accomplish, and what it does accomplish (allowing other non-admins to post to a block user's talk page without allowing the blocked user to respond) runs a substantial risk of heckling/hitting a fellow when he's down. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 01:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

::[[User:Ottava Rima]] has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGiano_II&diff=242646864&oldid=242645955 mentioned] that a similar problem was encountered on Wikiversity and has been reported.  [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 02:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Even without the bugs, I don't support this feature. Very rarely should blocked users be prevented from editing their talkpage. Most of those cases will be where they abuse the ability to edit the talkpage following a block, at which stage the page can be protected. A talkpage protection is likely to get more attention than an additional element of a block, and allows for the period where the user cannot edit their talkpage to differ from the block length. I suspect that, as an added parameter to a block, it will be used far more commonly than talkpage protections, which is problematic given the number of blocks appealed on talkpages. We shouldn't be putting up barriers to users getting a fair hearing if they want to contest their block. It doesn't appear that the feature was added as a result of a consensus-based discussion and, if others agree with me, I suggest we have a discussion to form a basis to ask for this feature to be disabled. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 02:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Yes'''. Remove the featurecruft.[[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 02:19, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:I agree. There are already issues as it is with some shared IPs with their talk pages blocked. The last thing you want to do is make things even more inconvenient. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 02:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::I agree as well; it seems like something handy that might get used occasionally, but in general just sits there and does nothing. If it ain't broke... &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 02:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::After all, when this would be useful, can't you reach the same end by protecting the userpage when necessary? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 02:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone has suggested to me off-wiki that this feature may have been developed in response to the ongoing antics of a certain group of vandals who sometimes place dangerous malware on their userpages. If this is so, the argument for having this feature is stronger than I had imagined. Perhaps the solution may be to retain this feature but physically separate the "block user from editing own talkpage" as well as "block user from sending e-mail" settings from the other block settings on the "block user" template, thus allowing admins to engage these settings when there is reason to do so but reducing the chance that this will be done through inattention or inadvertence.

Also, the wording of the setting is a bit confusing. It would be better as "block user from editing own talkpage" (default unclicked, click when choosing to engage) rather than "allow user to edit own talkpage" (default click, unclick when choosing to disengage). They are logically equivalent, of course, but the lack of parallelism with the other wordings probably increases the number of mistakes. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 02:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:By "certain group of vandals", do you mean the Gr*wp fools?  If not, then I for one am not familiar with the vandals you're referring to and, therefore, wouldn't know to use the feature anyway.  That makes it all the more useless.  —[[User:Wknight94|Wknight94]] ([[User talk:Wknight94|talk]]) 02:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, I'm aware of that too, and it seems like a much less intrusive solution for those who deal with that problem to get into the habit of protecting the relevant user talk pages rather than implementing a new feature that has the potential for substantial collateral damage.  Hardly anyone ever accidentally full protects a user talk page while protection is a separate action from blocking.  New admins may be confused by this tool, and it being buggy as well inclines me toward jettisoning it altogether. [[User:Durova|<span style="color:#000099; font-family:Verdana;">Durova</span>]]<sup>''[[User talk:Durova|Charge!]]''</sup> 03:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Endorse removal'''. This feature is all disadvantage and no advantage. The number of instances where this feature can be possibly used reliably is absolutely tiny, and shrinking. The risk of unwarranted use is unacceptably high. If Newyorkbrad is right about the reason for its introduction, I wonder if he has been misinformed and confused between the regular edits of these vandals, and their talk page edits. It is not malware on the talk page but just a very large edit. It's not that bad really, and the precise size of the edit is conveniently provided in several places before you have to look at it. We get these large edits all the time in articles, in the sandbox, in templates and other places. Every admin should know by now when they block a particular page-move or template vandal to look at the page size, to go straight to the page history instead of the diff, and to delete and salt or protect the talk page. Any admin who would use this checkbox would necessarily know that. And these admins are usually onto these vandals very quickly. It's probably even quicker to protect the page than faff about with the checkbox. Developers should be introducing a way to limit the size of edits instead. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 08:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

*I also would like to see this feature removed; it has very little benefit as the same function can be attained by protecting the page, and that one minor benefit - making the blocking of page move vandals require one less click of the mouse - is hugely outweight by its disbenefits, detailed above (buggyness, accidentally disabling, buttoncruft, potential of misuse (q.v. certain admins inappropriately removing the ability of blocked users to use [[Special:Emailuser]] despite no abuse occuring) either through ineptitude or malice). [[User:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#28c"><b>fish</b></u>]]&amp;[[User_talk:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#D33"><b>karate</b></u>]] 11:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

*Yes, remove it. It causes a lot of trouble for almost no benefit. We're very good at deleting and salting G*awp talk pages immediately anyway: about the only time we would use this feature. Sledgehammer to crack a walnut. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|will never be anybody's hero now]] 12:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

*I also can't see any advantage of this feature over the already existing feature to protect a User's talk page.  No significant benefits + significant costs and risks = an idea that should not be implemented.  [[User:GRBerry|GRBerry]] 17:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:Who is responsible for testing this software? Why is it not properly tested first? Why are half witted incompetent admns allowed to expirement with it? [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 21:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
::Instead of taking cheap shots at the admins, who frankly don't deserve you, why don't you go make yourself useful somewhere? [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 23:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:::We give it to [[:Category:Half-witted incompetent administrators|those dullards]] so we can mock them when it goes wrong. It's like giving matches to a toddler, or feeding a troll. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] ([[User talk:TimVickers|talk]]) 21:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
* '''Remove''', absolutely. I've been active around [[CAT:RFU|requests for unblock]] for considerable time, and never had protecting talk pages manually when needed been too cumbersome to introduce such a potentially devastating feature. [[User:MaxSem|Max<span style="font-size:large;">''S''</span>em]]<sup>([[User talk:MaxSem|Han shot first!]])</sup> 21:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

With all this consensus, how does it get turned off? [[User:Rootology|<span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">C</span>]])([[User talk:Rootology|<span style="color:#156917;">T</span>]]) 05:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
:Poke a dev?  I think Brion oughta' be able to do it.  In the meantime, let people know to leave that box checked.  Cheers.  [[User:Lifebaka|<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>]][[User talk:Lifebaka|'''++''']] 15:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

::If you don't want that checkbox, just add <code>#wpAllowUsertalk { display: none }</code> to the global CSS. That way, the checkbox is not shown and can't be inadvertedly unchecked. While keeping it for other projects. Hardcoding to remove it is IMHO excessive. [[User:Platonides|Platonides]] ([[User talk:Platonides|talk]]) 17:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

* '''Oppose Removal''' - I think the only reason this feature should be used would be in blocking certain vandals, mainly our Harry Potter friends. They create usernames and conduct page moves that clearly demonstrate who they are and thus locking their talk page while blocking them is very convenient to admins. I think this should be a last resort nuclear option, but it should be kept and simply used very sparingly as it is useful. [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 00:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::In reply to the idea that simply protecting the talk page would be better. In cases were this is used a lot of times the account is simply hardblocked and no messages are left on the talk page. Often admins forget to protect the talk pages of such accounts and they are created with vandalism after the block. Another admin is then forced to come along, delete the page, and then protect it. This usual happens in the midst of a large spree of vandalism with a dozen or more accounts being blocked. It can easily get very annoying and time consuming. This solves that problem. I think we just need to make it clear this is only for very blatant accounts. [[User:KnightLago|KnightLago]] ([[User talk:KnightLago|talk]]) 00:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC) 
*'''Oppose Removal''' If we could learn Rollback and Huggle blocking, we can learn this tool, as soon as the bugs are worked out. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 00:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' but '''please''', '''please''', if it's kept, flip the language to "Prevent user from editing own talk page...", with a checkbox that is unchecked by default. The current message/action is horrendous from a [[Computer-human interaction|CHI]]/human-factors point of view. ALL the other checkboxes (except "Watch..., which is neutral) are worded such that checking the box further restricts the user's activities. (''Prevent'' account creation, ''Prevent'' user from sending email, ''Autoblock'' any IP addresses used) but then this one says "''Allow...''", in a case where it will very rarely be invoked. That's just asking for mistakes and unintended consequences. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 02:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*Completely agreed with MCB and NYB. If the feature does end up getting kept, the language really needs to be flipped in order to be consistent with the other blocking options. It's definitely not intuitive. [[User:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Glass</span>]]'''[[User talk:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Cobra</span>]]''' 07:43, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Remove''' - User talk pages very rarely need to be protected, and it's not that hard to do when it's necessary. Very low-value feature, in my opinion. --[[User:Bongwarrior|Bongwarrior]] ([[User talk:Bongwarrior|talk]]) 07:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Remove''' encourages too much page protection that is not inline with our standard blocking practices. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 22:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
**I also agree with NYB about e-mail blocking. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 22:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

== A user has issued a death threat to an admin ==

{{resolved|1=Blocked. No further action needed. &ndash; [[User:RyanCross|<span style="color:navy;font-family:cursive;">'''Ryan'''Cross</span>]] ([[User talk:RyanCross|<span style="color:navy;font-family:cursive;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)}}
[[User:Alisons B itch Kunt|Alisons B itch Kunt]]&nbsp;([[User talk:Alisons B itch Kunt|talk]]&nbsp;'''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Alisons B itch Kunt|contribs]]) has been blocked, but they have issued a death threat to [[User:Alison]].  Does this deserve any further action?  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 21:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:Well, if [[User:Alison]] really ''is'' an Irish slut, I could go to her talk page and flirt with her.  :) -[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:FisherQueen|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/FisherQueen|contribs]])</span> 21:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Take that as a no (a rather sarcastic one, for shame!).  Thanks for helping out though. [[User:Garden|<font color=#cc3333>'''Garden'''</font>]]. 21:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::No it does not need further action. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 21:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::: (ec) Sure, I speak non-ironic as a second language, though not fluently.  You did exactly as you should; nothing more is required unless the user comes back with a different sockpuppet.   -[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:FisherQueen|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/FisherQueen|contribs]])</span> 21:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::In which case we might consider requesting help from a CU to see if there are any other connected accounts. I wonder which CU to request...? [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 22:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I know a checkuser, but I've already obtained some kd lang music and a bottle of cheap wine, and I'm hoping she'll be busy for the next hour or so. -[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:FisherQueen|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/FisherQueen|contribs]])</span> 22:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Gosh, I think it takes more than a CD and a bottle of cheap booze to pull a checkuser.--[[User:Scott MacDonald|Scott MacDonald]] ([[User talk:Scott MacDonald|talk]]) 22:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::It's all in caps, so you know they must ''really really'' mean it. Alison had better be careful; someone might [[Wikipedia:Deny recognition|type mean things at her]]. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 22:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::The blocked user is apparently unaware of a basic axiom: ''Never mess with the Irish''. >:) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 22:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::*OR the SCOTTISH! Alison rules! (yeah yeah, I'm back...) ...''[[User:Dave1185|Dave1185]] ([[User talk:Dave1185|talk]]) 00:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)''
::::::Based on their comments, it's probably {{user|TougHHead}}.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 23:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

lol - I just found this now and promptly spat [[Red Bull]] all over my laptop. Yes, it's [[User:TougHHead|TougHHead]] and if you think this is bad, you should see the emails;

{{cquote|''Unblock that innocent user now or ILL BEAT THE FUCKING FUCK OUT OF YOUR FUCKING ASSHOLE! ALISON I AM GOING TO BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF YOU THIS FUCKING SECOND IF YOU DONT UNBLOCK User:76.247.222.101 RIGHT NOW! I GOT AN M1 ABRAMS TANK ROLLING TO FUCKING HUNT YOUR FUCKING ASS DOWN FOR BEING UNFIT TO BE ADMIN! YOU SAID EVERYONE POSTER A LONG FUCKING HISTOrY AND IN FACT I SHOULD BE YOUR REPLACEMENT! NO ADMIN GETS PAID TO BLOCK PEOPLE THAT ArE RANDOM USERS! YOU JUST WONT LEAVE User:76.247.222.101s TALKPAGE AND HIS BLOCK ALONE AND TWEAKENED IT TO PREVENT THAT USER FROM EDITING WIKIPEDIA Ever AGAIN YOU FUCK!
FUCK YOU YOU FAT SLUT!! YOU DID EVIL FOREVER BLOCKS TO PREVENT ANYONE FROM HAVING FUN!! YOU ACTED LIKE A TOTAL BITCH BY ATTACKING USER:76.247.222.101 AND TOUCHED HIS BLOCK ILLEGALLY!! YOU ATTACKED THE AMERICANS AND I SHOULD HAD JIMBO WALES DID THE UNBLOCKING BECAUSE HE HATES SLUTTY WEAK BITCHES LIKE YOU FAT TITS!!! ALSO STOP USING ILLEGAL WORDS LIKE TOUGHHEAD BECAUSE THAT SHOWS THAT YOU ARE A BITCH!!! GO SUCK DICK BITCH!!!"|20px|20px|[[User:TougHHead|TougHHead]]}}

''*coffs*'' - you get the idea. When it comes to this vandal with anger management issues, the best approach is [[WP:LBI]] - laugh; block; ignore :-) - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 01:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:LOL, that's funny -- that's as good as some of the stuff I've gotten from the "George Reeves Person" -- I know it's warped, but I save the good ones in a "trolls and kooks" folder to send to my friends.  :)  [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 01:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Whatever happened to that guy? Did he move back to Croatia? And I don't think "trolls and kooks" is civil. I call it "letters from fans". 0:) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Now, keep in mind, there's a rule that says e-mail contents are copyrighted, so be careful or he might come after you with a threatening attorney. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 01:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:And what adds to this was his opposition to the [[Fuck]] article [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TougHHead&diff=172007416&oldid=172001508 diff].  Hmmm...wikipedia, changing one mind at a time. This is just too funny.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 02:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::He was using a fake civility argument. The real deal is that he thinks he owns the copyright to it. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Ah, man.  I feel a little bit bad now, Alison, since I'm the one that brought TougHHead to you awhile back for some whack-a-socking!  It's been awhile since I've gotten those rants ([[WP:BEANS]]).  [[User:Metros|Metros]] ([[User talk:Metros|talk]]) 02:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

LET'S ALL TALK IN CAPS. AH, YES; TALKING IN CAPS MAKES ME FEEL MORE LIKE A MAN. WOULD YOU LIKE ONE TOO? '''HAW!''' [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''HALF'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''SHADOOW'''</font>]] 02:23, 6 OCTOBER 2008 (UTC)
:Oooooh, your letters are so big! Annnnd on a serious note, has that tank arrived yet? Because I'm betting on Alison hijacking it, and using it to fight vandals. <font face="Trebuchet MS">[[User:Nwwaew|Nwwaew]]<small> ([[User_Talk:Nwwaew|Talk Page]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Nwwaew|Contribs]]) ([[Special:Emailuser/Nwwaew|E-mail me]])</small></font> 02:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Not if I get it first! Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 02:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::We're not just laughing at them; we're ''pointing'', too! [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 02:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Evil forever blocks. Lulz. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 00:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:To try to counter this highly uncivil discussion, I will finish this by addressing TougHHead in dots: .... .... ... ..... ....... ! [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 02:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

From ''[[Duck Soup]]'':
:Groucho: Now go out in that battlefield and lead those men to victory.
:Chico: I wouldn't go there unless I was in one of those iron things - what do you call those things?
:Groucho: Tanks.
:Chico: You're welcome.
::Ya see, even in a classic film, they can't all be classics. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I am getting THIS CLOSE to issuing a warning against personal attacks to TougHHead! [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 03:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::You can go ahead and warn TougHHead against personal attacks. No problem. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the number of "love letters" you have is a strong indicator of how good an admin you are. So, far, this is my favorite: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DragonFable&diff=next&oldid=242660275]. '''~''' [[User:L'Aquatique|<font face="Georgia"><font color="#000">'''L'Aquatique'''</font></font>]]<font color="#a96dfc">[<font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User talk:L'Aquatique|<font color="#a96dfc">talk</font>]]</font>]</font> 04:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes, some of the most interesting posts are the ones that mean absolutely nothing except (possibly) to the one who wrote it. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Xinunus]] back at an IP address ==

{{resolved}}
Based on [[Special:Contributions/199.209.144.211]]'s edit this user  seems likely to be indef blocked user Xinunus. Could someone take a look and block the editor if they agree with that assessment? [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 22:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:It's definitely him.  This IP was blocked a few hours ago. - [[User:Rjd0060|Rjd0060]] ([[User talk:Rjd0060|talk]]) 23:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Sorry. Should have checked the block log. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 23:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

== AFD log ==

{{resolved|1=Reporter fixed the problem. &ndash; [[User:RyanCross|<span style="color:navy;font-family:cursive;">'''Ryan'''Cross</span>]] ([[User talk:RyanCross|<span style="color:navy;font-family:cursive;">''talk''</span>]]) 00:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)}}
The AFD log for today is not working. [[User:Schuym1|<span style="color:#0000f1">Schuy</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">m</span><span style="color:#FFBF00">1</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Schuym1|<font style="color:green">talk</font>]])</small> 00:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Never mind. I just had to purge the cache. [[User:Schuym1|<span style="color:#0000f1">Schuy</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">m</span><span style="color:#FFBF00">1</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Schuym1|<font style="color:green">talk</font>]])</small> 00:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Actaully, the top of the page didn't work and it was fixed. [[User:Schuym1|<span style="color:#0000f1">Schuy</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">m</span><span style="color:#FFBF00">1</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Schuym1|<font style="color:green">talk</font>]])</small> 00:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Neel Kashkari]] - minor vandalism ==

Please watch [[Neel Kashkari]] for minor vandalism by anons. Yesterday, this person wasn't notable. Today, he's the U.S. Treasury's new "bailout czar", with $700 billion to spend.  So we have a new article, watched as yet by few editors, and it's taking a few hits. Thanks.  --[[User:Nagle|John Nagle]] ([[User talk:Nagle|talk]]) 01:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Gary Cooper]] ==

Could somebody please take a look at this article's recent history?   Since at least June 19th [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gary_Cooper&diff=220413436&oldid=220382173], what is clearly a single editor using a variety of IP addresses has been attempting to insert into the article material about Cooper which other editors have been reverting because some of the parties referred to are still alive (so there are BLP concerns) and because the editor is supposedly a banned user, [[User:HarveyCarter]].  The constant edit warring on the part of this person is very disruptive and distracting to people actually trying to work on the article.

The IP addresses involved are:

{{col-begin}}
{{col-break}}
*92.8.34.85 
*92.8.39.32
*92.8.40.83 
*92.8.250.103 
*92.9.88.230 
*92.9.173.136 
*92.8.245.132
*92.11.44.129
*92.11.101.98
*92.11.156.253 
{{col-break}}
*92.11.165.155
*92.11.178.28 
*92.11.199.75 
*92.11.222.125 
*92.11.228.193
*92.11.229.160 
*92.11.242.86
*92.12.11.250   
*92.12.26.106
*92.12.34.28 
{{col-break}}
*92.12.42.28  
*92.12.53.54 
*92.12.59.120
*92.12.52.197
*92.12.63.216  
*92.12.118.124
*92.12.141.78
*92.12.147.117 
*92.12.152.33   
*92.12.153.142
{{col-break}}
*92.12.174.196 
*92.12.180.146
*92.12.209.253 
*92.12.210.71 
*92.13.89.69 
*92.13.158.54 
*92.14.134.33
{{col-end}} 

Is there nothing that can be done about blocking this person, and is it, as claimed, a banned user?  <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 10:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:If it's true, you can try and file a [[WP:SSP|suspected sockpuppet case]] but I doubt that it is helpful. A rangeblock of 92.x.x.x is quite hard to do, it would cause too much collateral damage. I [[WP:SEMI|semi-protected]] the article for now, hopefully forcing the IP to discuss their changes after those countless reverts. Regards '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 11:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Even a 92.8.0.0-9.15.255.255 (a smaller range, including all the IPs mentioned above - the smallest range which does) would cause too much collateral damage. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od Mishehu]] 14:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::That would be 92.8.0.0/13 (half a million IP addresses!).  MediaWiki won't even allow such a block to be made (it'll only go up to /16). Semi-protection, I'm afraid, is the only viable solution, assuming engaging with the editor in question and resolving their issues amicably is a no-go. [[User:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#28c"><b>fish</b></u>]]&amp;[[User_talk:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#D33"><b>karate</b></u>]] 15:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::The vast quantity of sockpuppetry from this banned editor would suggest that [[The Fifth Element|negotiation]] would only be possible in a [[Bruce Willis]] sense. --[[User:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#0000FF">Rodhull</span>]][[User_talk:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#FF0000">andemu</span>]] 16:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::When I saw Bruce Willis, I thought you meant negotiation in the ''Die Hard'' sense; that is, no negotiation at all, and the death of the villain before the the film ends. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 06:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Or confronting the puppetmaster at High Noon. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 06:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Linkspam ==

{{resolved}}
I don't know if this is the right place to report this, but could someone please have a look at [[Special:Contributions/Htomfields]] -- someone is adding the same external link/url to a whole lot of unrelated articles.  I would revert it if I knew how to do it all at once, but I'm sure I'd be more comfortable if an admin did instead. [[User:Orange Knight of Passion|Orange Knight of Passion]] ([[User talk:Orange Knight of Passion|talk]]) 06:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I see that Chris G reverted his edits already. I warned him, no need to block -yet-. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#001F7F;">talk</span>]]</sup> 08:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== request for block ==

{{resolved|1=Already blocked. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|will never be anybody's hero now]] 12:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)}}
am requesting block for IP 153.2.246.32 for repeated, malicious and exclusive vandalism:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/153.2.246.32]

Thank you, [[User:Journalist1983|Journalist1983]] ([[User talk:Journalist1983|talk]]) 12:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Already blocked a few hours ago. And the vandalism was just page blanking, pretty low down on the scale of maliciousness. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|will never be anybody's hero now]] 12:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I be blocked too?  Please Please Please?   [[Special:Contributions/130.207.180.77|130.207.180.77]] ([[User talk:130.207.180.77|talk]]) 12:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:You can issue a "self-block". That's done by turning off your computer permanently. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Why don't you die??  [[Special:Contributions/130.207.180.77|130.207.180.77]] ([[User talk:130.207.180.77|talk]]) 12:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Because I am immortal. It's both a blessing and a curse. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Well, Mr 130.207.180.77 wasn't very nice, was he boys and girls? And now he's got half a day on the naughty step to think about what he did. ➨ <font color="red">❝'''[[User:Redvers|ЯEDVERS]]'''❞</font> [[User:Redvers/Say no to Commons|will never be anybody's hero now]] 13:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::It's a school IP. ''BLOCK 'EM FOR A YEAR!''' [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 22:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Another song from ''Mr. Redvers's Neighborhood'': "Block 'em all / Block 'em all / The long, and the short, and the tall." [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Turkey]] ==

In the article, I have re-edited the religion section, because I thought it was biased and only looks at the point of view of secularism or kemalism of the country, therefore I believe that section does not provide a [[NPOV|neutral point of view]] for the readers on Wikipedia, because nothing is mentioned about the conservatism present in Turkey, for example the rise of Islamist-governments and the headscarf controversy - which is banned, but worn by many. I have then added this information about the culture clash between both of these ideologies, with reliable sources and is an important information which should be available in the article based on the impact of Religion in the country. 

Furthermore, I have also added the Kemalist ideology to balance between both of these concepts. But in the article it is reverted by two users: [[User:Turkish Flame]] and [[User:Ayça Leovinus]] (<Part of the '''37 [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Shuppiluliuma|Wikipedia sockpuppets of Shuppiluliuma]])''', their reason mainly given: No Islamist ideology allowed on the article, and only favoring secular information, but I have provided two balanced information for the article section, so I believe these two users are reverting my edits due to based on their own ideologies, but not caring about how information is provided for Wikipedia users, and that is what I have done by editing the section, providing a neutral point of view, but however these users are trying to hide these facts and informations, which I think is not a valid reason to revert my edits. Please review this, Thank you!!! My neutral revision :[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turkey&oldid=243468091#Religion] against this:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turkey&oldid=243471709#Religion]

Many biased reason's against my edit: ''There is no place for your islamist agenda in wikipedia...'', ''I know that it tickles your Islamist nerves.'', ''The top paragraph entirely for religion, the bottom paragraph entirely for secularism.'', ''especially when you are the "dedicated Islamist" of Wikipedia?'', ''You are not making a "summary", you are only removing the parts that you dislike due to your Islamic ideology'', ''Mr. Bangladeshi Islamic fanatic in England, why don't you "get a life" and leave Turkey to the Turks - who definitely know their country much better than you do?'', ''Enough - go see a doctor'', ''You are not making a "summary", you are only removing the parts that you dislike due to your Islamic ideology'' - '''Note''' the word '''Islamist''' mentioned in these quotes by [[User:Ayça Leovinus]]. 

My reason's for edits: '' I have shortened the section because: the section looks cluttered and unorganized; various info moved to subs; reducing article size (not removed secular)'', ''Balancing and adding information (ie Kemalism, political situation)'', ''fixing info, now clear according to NPOV'', ''good edit (AGF, NPOV)'', ''My revision: shortened sentences, and transferred to related articles, adding few relevant political sit., reducing article size (previous cluttered and unorganized) now)'', ''re edited section, added more comprehensive populations of Christians and Jews, and fixed Kemalism, with sources'', ''entry referenced, based on NPOV, balanced of view. Conservate and secular present, not only secular, this should not be hidden.'', ''NPOV version: providing info based on two sides of point of views, not only one, but two present in society. Secularism/Kemalism, Conservatism/Headscarf '' - '''Note''' no insults given to users, but giving suitable reasons for the edits.

[[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 18:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

: Is there any comments? [[User:Tangomaan|Mohsin]] ([[User talk:Tangomaan|talk]]) 13:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Johnny "J"]] ==

{{resolved|reliable source for Johnny 'J's death now found.}}
There are rumors all over the internet that [[Johnny "J"]] has died.  I have been unable to find a reliable source to that fact, and have been looking for several days now.  There are still no reliable news sources reporting this.  It started on a hiphop website that has been wrong in the past, and has been picked up by such sites as worldwideconnected.com and allhiphop.com, which I'm not sure are reliable sources.  I reported this at [[WP:BLPN]], and [[User:Jossi]] removed the death report and semi-protected the page, but it's been re-added.  I don't want to edit war, but this does seem to be a major violation of [[WP:BLP]] to the extreme, since there are still no reliable sources.  {{user|Lhw1}} reverted Jossi's removal of the death report with an edit summary which says, ''Sigh, you idiots. There isn't going to be a "reliable source", the media doesn't give a damn about Johnny J. If this keeps up, wikipedia's gonna claim he's still alive in 2028. Use the talk page.'' (and I note that Lhw1 did not discuss it on the Talk page after having made the revert).  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 20:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::That's my point, even with the overbearing primary source evidence pointing towards Johnny J's death, you still refuse to acknowledge that he has died. A brief stub would have been sufficient enough, with information about his incarceration (see talk page). Yes, we all understand Wikipedia's policy of unreliable sources, but Johnny J is considered an underground artist, news about him will not show up on the front pages what you consider "reliable sources". News such as this only shows up on Hip-hop related sites, all of which are run as blogs or forums. That is as reliable as hip-hop news can get. I'm sure many of you are relatively new to the underground hip-hop scene or do not understand of how the it operates--by the word of mouth and blogs, NOT by news articles. Go on any underground artist's wikipedia article and you will find the sources are either from the artist's myspace or from such blogs as AllHipHop. [[User:Lhw1|Lhw1]] ([[User talk:Lhw1|talk]]) 22:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Then those articles don't meet the non-negotiable requirements of [[WP:VERIFY]] and should be sent to AfD for deletion. If ''"the media doesn't give a damn about"'' a topic, then neither should a mainstream encyclopedia. — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 23:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah. I gave up on that. But TMZ.com and Contactmusic.com have run a story on it, and his Myspace page now has an "RIP" up on it, so it appears to be true - though the sourcing is still weak. As Lhw1 notes, it may not receive major media attention beyond what it's gotten so far. Some editors don't understand that we don't run with "he's dead!" notices that come off of questionable bulletin board type sites, but ah well. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 20:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Now reliably sourced - [http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1596433/20081006/2pac.jhtml] - so this is resolved, I think. [[User:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#28c"><b>fish</b></u>]]&amp;[[User_talk:Fish and karate|<u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#D33"><b>karate</b></u>]] 13:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== Discussion closed at [[Talk:Barack Obama]] ==

Wikidemon has been engaging in [[Wikipedia:Harassment|harassment]], unilaterally closing discussion I started today [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242970338&oldid=242950895] at the [[Talk:Barack Obama]] page, quickly putting a box around it ( first [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=next&oldid=242978247] edit summary: ["closed as disruption"], second [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=next&oldid=242979571] ["closing again"], third time [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=next&oldid=243047995] ["close discussion"], fourth time [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=243085514]) and claimiing incivility, weirdly, and making the bizarre claim that restarting a discussion with new information is itself somehow "disruptive". There's a better word for it: intolerance of opposing views and even intolerance of the idea that a discussion Wikidemon doesn't like to see has been started. He's had some support from a few editors, but a few editors shouldn't be able to close a discussion immediately, before other editors get a chance to see it (this is the weekend, when many don't edit), and there are plenty of other editors who normally look at that talk page. Shutting down after mere hours a discussion that isn't disruptive on its face is itself disruptive. There is nothing in [[WP:TALK#Others' comments]] that makes this an exception to ''As a rule, do not edit others' comments, including signatures. Exceptions are described in the next section.'' (in [[WP:TALK#Behavior that is unacceptable]]). It is clear from [[WP:CCC]] that significant new information is a reason to restart a previous discussion (''Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and changes are sometimes reasonable.'') 

The childish thing about all this is that whether or not I get consensus, all I'm looking for is a fair chance to show fellow editors new information. The discussion should remain open for a while, say till the end of Monday (early Tuesday on the Wikipedia clock) so that editors who look at the page on weekdays can see what they think. Closing the discussion earlier than that is an example of [[WP:OWN]] on a talk page. I don't even get how it is supposed to be intolerable that a discussion exists on a talk page. In fact, it's downright eerie.

If I've made mistakes here -- perhaps I shouldn't have reverted the closing of the discussion, although I'm certain it's against policy, or perhaps I was uncivil myself -- I'm happy to listen to feedback from other editors. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 03:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:Other uninvolved editors, that is. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 03:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::Honestly, looking at the thread, I'm inclined to say "it takes two to tango"; your own comments were rather aggressive. I can understand frustration- we've all been there- but you've gotta keep a level head in a powder keg like the Obama article. That said, I agree that Wikidemon's behavior was over the top; attempting to close discussion before it was due (first attempt was less than 60 min. after Noroton started the thread) and attempting to use scare/bully tactics ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=242980288], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=243003639]) do not leave a good impression. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 05:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:The bogus AN/I reports are getting tired.  I am on routine article patrol.  The editors at [[Talk:Barack Obama]] regularly close, move, and delete several disruptive discussions per day.  Particularly unhelpful proposals get shut down quickly,[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243085688&oldid=243085514][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243080570&oldid=243077157][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242784683&oldid=242782619][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242906064&oldid=242905837][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242587118&oldid=242584556] as does vandalism.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&curid=7777393&diff=243125327&oldid=243125148][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243077157&oldid=243072936] 
:Several claims made here are flat-out wrong.  Noroton knows the objection is to the insults, not his proposal, because I advised him several times he is welcome to make it and I would not close it if made without insulting other editors (e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243010208&oldid=243009050][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242976858&oldid=242976380][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=242980288&oldid=242979571]).  Under article probation editors may participate on Obama-related articles if they can do so civilly; if not they are unwelcome (see [[Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation]]).  The probation page chronicles a block every day or two for editors disrupting Obama-related pages.  My closure was in no way unilateral.  I did it after making proposals, and with consensus.  Another editor closed it as well.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243066662&oldid=243063574]   I did not close the discussion four times.  I make a point to stay within 1RR, and go to 2RR only after obtaining consensus on matters of disruption.  One of Noroton's diffs has nothing to do with this. 
:Inadvertent untruths are understandable for a new editor on his first time at AN/I.  But Noroton is experienced and this is his third or so complaint against me here, the fifth or sixth overall regarding his failed content proposal linking Obama to Bill Ayers to terrorism.   If there is a next time, a more careful attempt to be truthful, honor the article probation terms against personal attacks, and follow procedures, would be most welcome.  I did not get a courtesy notice about this discussion.  I will go ahead and leave a notice on the talk page that the closure is being discussed here.  I will not revert it again if it is reopened, and if asked by an authoritative party or assured by Noroton that he will stick to the content proposal and avoid complaining about other editors, I will gladly self-revert my closure (although, being the several dozenth time this proposal has been made on the page, it would seem to have no chance of success).  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 07:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::Shutting down a discussion while you've got an hours-old consensus, thereby blocking any other possible consensus from forming, is clearly gaming the system in favor of editors most avidly watching the talk page. Editors like you who game the system should not expect extra courtesies from the editors they're repeatedly bothering. You falsely claim here that I didn't "stick to the content proposal" when, in fact, discussing the content proposal was the one thing you were most avid about shutting down. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 12:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::I agree with Wikidemon. There have been several attempts at discussing this same exact thing already, each met with the same consensus. Noroton is citing "significant new information" per [[WP:CCC]], but this is hardly significant new information. Even Noroton says "There are no new revelations" at the start of the discussion that he attempted to post today. Further, Noroton's comments are needlessly hostile and divisive. I support Wikidemon's closings, and will continue to do so until Noroton shows the ability to be civil. [[User:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Glass</span>]]'''[[User talk:GlassCobra|<span style="color:#002bb8;">Cobra</span>]]''' 11:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::GlassCobra, what would be the deep, deep harm of letting a talk page discussion continue for a few days? If my comments were "needlessly hostile and divisive", look at Wikidemon's and the editors allied with him in that discussion. The main argument in the past was [[WP:WEIGHT]] (possibly because WP:WEIGHT is vague enough for editor POV to be concealed by it -- all other arguments citing policy have long since been discredited). Since WP:WEIGHT was the last argument standing, new, significant coverage erodes it and can overcome it. Or it should erode it if I'm dealing with minimally honest editors. I didn't know if that was going to be the case, or whether it still may be the case if the discussion is allowed to continue for at least a few days. I've dealt with nearly all the editors who were in the discussion before and expected nothing new from them, including no reconsideration of the subject by them, no matter what the new evidence. I did want to see if other editors, including editors who I hadn't seen previously contribute to the talk page, would consider the matter in a new light or reconsider the matter. That can't really happen if discussion is closed after a few hours. Discussion should only be closed when disruption is inevitable and obvious. My comments were focused on how the new information strengthened the case for including mention of the long-running [[Obama-Ayers controversy]], so it wasn't simply rehashing. This is simply the case of a possibly temporary, hours-old "consensus" on a talk page preventing further discussion which might have overturned that consensus. That is clearly disruptive in itself and obviously gaming the system. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 12:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::While I have no opinion on the content, I agree with Noroton that it would not have been harmful to wait longer before trying to force the discussion closed. The article is on enough watchlists that it would be a simple matter to quickly form a consensus as to whether there was anything new to discuss. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 13:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::With all due respect, the topic comes up almost daily, usually from the same editors. Sometimes twice a day. It has long since stopped being a productive discussion, and moved into the neighborhood of farce. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 14:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
* Even if any comments in the thread are not egregious enough as personal attacks to warrant summary deletion under article probation, maybe Noroton and Wikidemon could consider redacting their own posts through judicious deletions here and there (''eg,'' Noroton, his criticism of his faction's opponents when presenting his proposal, etc.? Wikidemon, his subtle threats to maneuver toward Noroton's being banned, etc.?)[[User:Justmeherenow|<span style="font-family: Mistral ; font-size: 10p"> &nbsp;<math>\sim</math>&nbsp;J''ust''me''here''now</span>]] [[User talk:Justmeherenow|<small>'''''(&nbsp;&nbsp;)'''''</small>]] 13:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comment w/ proposal''': Close this incident. Noroton brings up his perennial favorite subject, Bill Ayers, on this particular talk page endlessly. One might even say mercilessly, as it becomes agonizing to explain, over and over, why his proposals (really, just one proposal rehashed repeatedly over literally the past six months) only ever result in consensus against them. Noroton wants particular content in the article, while the weight of consensus and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines is generally against the content. Closing his repeat discussions when they pop up ''is not harassment.'' At this point, it is maintenance. Noroton has exactly one topic he is interested in on the Obama talk page, and it isn't improving the article. Calling Wikidemon's closure of disruptive threads harassment is, at bare minimum, incorrect. And as the editor creating the disruptive threads, Noroton is trying to game the system. This needs to, at long last, stop. It needs to stop long-term, and it needs to stop with teeth. I propose a temporary topic ban for Noroton, and that Noroton be enjoined from starting the discussion again (and again, and again, and again) when or if the topic ban expires. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 14:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::If GoodDamon can't provide proof of them, these are smears:
::#''Noroton brings up his perennial favorite subject, Bill Ayers, on this particular talk page endlessly.'' I haven't been  watching that freakish page for weeks, much less participating there.
::#''really, just one proposal rehashed repeatedly over literally the past six months'' I haven't been the one who brought it up most of the time.
::#''Noroton wants particular content in the article, while the weight of consensus and Wikipedia's policies and guidelines is generally against the content.'' You have never been able to do anything more than assert that a proposal is contrary to a particular policy or guideline. Ever. Other editors have quoted the damn policies to you and it makes no difference. No wonder various editors have brought it up -- they see you POV pushing and think they may get other editors involved because, frankly, you and several other editors preventing consensus have proven yourself hopeless in that regard. But, of course, this AN/I page is about behavior, not content POV pushing. Editors here should know, however, that dealing with your policy-free position is part of the frustration involved here. 
::#''Closing his repeat discussions when they pop up ''is not harassment.'' At this point, it is maintenance.'' Then you should easily be able to state that a particular argument has come up and point to where it was resolved by recent consensus. Even in this AN/I section, you have failed to answer my point that previous arguments basically revolved around [[WP:WEIGHT]] and when new sources are being published, WP:WEIGHT will change, calling for a re-evaluation. GoodDamon, how is your behavior different from being a partisan interested in promoting your candidate rather than in improving the encyclopedia based on an adequate reflection on the sources? If the goal is NPOV treatment based on reflecting those sources, how does your behavior and your statements reflect that? If you refuse to discuss the matter and can't even point to previous discussions of the matter that addressed the same points, why shouldn't any other editor wonder whether you're committed to an NPOV article or instead acting as a POV-pushing games player? This isn't a rhetorical question: If we refuse to state our reasons, we can't assure others of our good intentions.  
::#''Noroton has exactly one topic he is interested in on the Obama talk page'' So at one point GoodDamon goes back 6 months to say the topic has periodically come up snce then, a time when I commented on a number of topics related to the article; and at this point GoodDamon says I only bring up this topic. Cut the bullshit, GoodDamon.
::#''And as the editor creating the disruptive threads, Noroton is trying to game the system.'' Beyond GoodDamon's assertion, where is the proof of disruption? Is there a Wikipedia policy requiring GoodDamon or others who don't want to discuss the topic to discuss the topic?
::#''the topic comes up almost daily, usually from the same editors. Sometimes twice a day.'' [14:30, 5 October] If it comes up that often, it should be easy to provide diff. I wasn't aware of this, so obviously I'm not one of the "same editors". I haven't been watching the Obama talk page for several weeks, much less participating there. Just provide the diffs. 
::If the same exact discussion has come up previously (kind of hard to do when the argument depends largely on major new sourcing that was published that morning), Wikidemon and GoodDamon or anyone else should be able to provide a link to the previous discussion, then ask what is new, and if I can't provide that answer, wait a decent period for others to see the discussion, and ''then'' close it after it is ''proven'' that it's unproductive. Instead, they do what looks like bullying, contrary to Wikipedia policy and practice, only because there happen to be a good number of Obama supporters asserting their POV on that page. So, GoodDamon, provide the diffs to the old argument. Bullshitters allege; honest editors provide diffs or take back their statements. Which are you, GoodDamon? -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 16:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

:::You really want to go there? All right. I've had enough. You know darn well that the leg work to provide those diffs is difficult, and most editors wouldn't do it. But I am not most editors. I am ''not'' smearing you when I say that you have brought up the same issue over and over again. Here are the diffs just from the very first edits you made to the Barack Obama talk page. What are they about? Well, see for yourself:
:::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=215352656 May 27th] - Your very first edit to the talk page. You express support for adding information about Bill Ayers to the article. The arguments against eventually outweigh the arguments for (I need not rehash here the weight and sourcing issues brought up in that discussion). The rest of your edits to the talk page that day are about Bill Ayers. Don't believe me? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&dir=prev&offset=20080509020747&limit=500&target=Noroton here] are your contributions for that period.
:::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=215388657 Also May 27th] - You propose wording additions for describing Bill Ayers in more detail... in Barack Obama's biography. The argument continues through to the next day. Again, feel free to check your edits with the link above.
:::* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=215654270 May 29th] - The arguing continues in a new section, after other editors discuss the ongoing attempts to insert language about Bill Ayers. You spend the rest of May arguing for inclusion of Ayers material, with a brief sojourn into the Wright controversy. But one thing stands out... [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=216246686 here] you say, and I quote, "Personally, I'd rather see a consensus against what I want than all this edit warring and endless debate, but I don't want to give up before trying to get more editors involved." So I'm left to wonder, exactly how long were you planning to try getting more editors involved before adhering to this statement? Based on your behavior since, I have no choice but to conclude you were not being honest when you said that.
:::So here, we've established that your first few days of editing at the Barack Obama talk page was to argue for inclusion of details about Bill Ayers. There was a massive (and consensus-reaching) thread that followed in the first week of June, and anyone who is interested in seeing that in the current context should start [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=217447915 here] where you began tallying votes, and then follow the thread through to its conclusion, where you '''accepted that consensus was against you'''. In June. Five months ago. Shall I continue? Or would anyone else care to take a look at Noroton's contributions to [[Talk:Barack Obama]] and see if they can find more than three edits that '''aren't''' about Bill Ayers and how important Ayers is to Obama's biography? Here's a fun game: Select one of the last six months, open your edits for that month, and click on a diff of that talk page at random. Odds are good, it's about Bill Ayers, or about why the previous consensus not to include Bill Ayers doesn't matter. Forgive my snark, everyone, but this is laughable. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 22:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Your diffs show I've participated in the many discussions about Ayers on that page. So have many others, and there's obviously nothing wrong with that. ''and see if they can find more than three edits that '''aren't''' about Bill Ayers'' Subjects I've discussed on that page: Wright, Tony Rezko, the book section. I've done a little cleanup of the political positions section. I've contributed quite a bit to the [[Early life and career of Barack Obama]] article. Not that participating in very active, ongoing discussions about Bill Ayers is anything I need to be embarassed about. In fact, I'm pretty proud of the fact that on other pages I've shown quite a bit of research into reliable sources on Ayers that overthrows the many canards put out by editors about him. Yet you're peddling a distortion suggesting that I'm simply a lone nut constantly bringing it up. Don't complain about having to look up diffs: you're the one who put out the smears; it's your responsibility to try to prove them. ''So I'm left to wonder, exactly how long were you planning to try getting more editors involved before adhering to this statement?'' Thanks for that smear, too: I said that back on May 31, so I must have been lying because in the months since then, I thought the consensus that eventually formed could be overturned. A consensus based on old information is ripe for change when new information comes up -- a pretty obvious standard on Wikipedia that, for instance, overturns AfD discussions. Your attacks are pretty obviously tawdry. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 03:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: This does seem to be an ongoing issue. I bit and had a look through the links, obtained via the "What Links Here" function, and got:
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_14#How_much_info_on_embarassing_associates_should_be_in_a_presidential_candidate.27s_biography.3F|June 3, Village pump (policy)]] (initiated)
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive445#LotLE.27s_recent_behavior|July 5 AN/I]]
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive446#User:Clubjuggle/User:Shem_incident|July 9 AN/I]]
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bill_Ayers_election_controversy|July 20, AFD comment]]
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive472#Response_by_Wikidemon|September 3 AN/I]]
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive477#User:Noroton|September 20 AN/I]] (user reported)
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive52#RfC_with_BLP_implications_on_.22terrorism.22_and_Bill_Ayers.2C_Bernardine_Dohrn|September 23, BLP noticeboard]] (Noroton, 1 post)
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_20|September 23, RS noticeboard]] (Noroton, 1 post)
:::::*[[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_16#Please_contribute_your_opinions_on_proposals_at_Talk:Weatherman_.28organization.29.2FTerrorism_RfC|September 24, Village Pump (misc)]] (Noroton, 1 post)
:::::And of course the above. I omitted any discussions which did not have a significant contribution by Noroton. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 23:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

** (after e.c.) I agree that this incident should be closed.  We do not need approval here to close disruptive discussions on the article talk page, and to let it be known that discussions begun with expressions of antipathy towards other editors (e.g., from above, "Editors like you....should not expect extra courtesies." "You falsely claim ..." "minimally honest editors", "you and several other editors preventing consensus have proven yourself hopeless", "acting as a POV-pushing games player", "Cut the bullshit", "bullying") are considered disruptive.  Perhaps AN/I is a safe haven for venting on other editors, but [[Talk:Barack Obama]] is not.  Article probation and talk page decorum are community decisions that do not for the most part need administrative tools to enforce.  As a community we have decided not to tolerate this toxic attitude there and take the least intrusive way to enforce that, closing disruptive discussions.  Again, as I explained many times the immediate issue is verbal abuse of other editors, and I did not object to Noroton contributing on the talk page if he could do so without insult and accusations.  I offer no opinion here whether serially repeated proposals themselves are inherently disruptive.  Whether Noroton needs a topic ban for that is something we can consider separately, and is only an issue presently if he is willing to contribute civilly.  From his comments there and here he does not, but the proof is in the pudding.  Will he post to the Obama pages without hostility to other editors?  If not, civility is the bigger issue.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 16:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::If civility were your real complaint, you'd address it directly and not shut down productive discussion. You conflate the two only because you are one of the most adamant POV pushers on this website, and you're found that, as a means of getting rid of or cowing editors you disagree with, you can fool some third-party editors into thinking you're following policy-related concerns like [[WP:CIV]]. You don't give a damn about WP:CIV. If you did, you'd be just as concerned about it when incivility comes up on your side. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 17:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::It is not worth responding here or in article/talk space to editors who sling that kind of abuse.  Ignoring does not mean allowing.  If that kind of comment or the other accusations made here made again on the Obama pages they will be deleted, closed, moved, or redacted.  Hence, I think Noroton is topic banning himself.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 17:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*Close as blatant [[WP:FORUMSHOP|forumshopping]]. <span style="font-family:lucida sans, console;">'''''[[User talk:Everyme|Everyme]]'''''</span> 17:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
*Wikidemon: ''Again, as I explained many times the immediate issue is verbal abuse of other editors, and I did not object to Noroton contributing on the talk page if he could do so without insult and accusations.'' All right, let's test Wikidemon's good faith. I removed the closure and restarted the discussion. Let's see if Wikidemon and his cohort can handle that without closing it again, or, when the uncivil comments from Wikidemon's cohort fly as they always do, whether Wikidemon will even notice it. Let's just see. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 19:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:*The above comment is unwarranted, an AGF/NPA/CIVIL violation, and toxic.  Noroton just re-opened the discussion.  That is not what I was proposing.  My statement was that I would not revert if it were reopened and "...assured by Noroton that he will stick to the content proposal and avoid complaining about other editors".  He gave no assurance, and in demonstrated with two new gripes about me and another about another editor on the talk page that he does not wish to discuss civilly.  Another editor has already closed the discussion again as disruption.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 20:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Well, LotLE reverted after discussion was restarted (edit summary: "close continuing disruption and violation of article probation". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243247395&oldid=243247171]) Here's what Wikidemon calls a "personal attack" in various edit summaries (one of them [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243251022&oldid=243247395]). It needs to be seen to be believed:

::::"Now I wonder if Wikidemon would be concerned about you saying I ''so breathlessly rushed here'', Loonymonkey."

:::If LotLE finds this so uncivil, one would think he'd be a very scrupulous editor himself. Compare what LotLE himself wrote in the same discussion, yesterday: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=243023844&oldid=243021304]

::::"This rehashing of the exact same non-argument, by exactly the same editor, for the dozenth time or more, smells strongly of bad faith and [[WP:POINT]]. This nonsensical discussion should be closed immediately, and ideally Noroton should be sanctioned [...] If this non-connection was actually of biographical significance here, it would continue to be significant in a month, and could wait until then for any insertion. It is not of any remote notability for the main bio, of course, and the urgency Noroton feels to include it is nothing more and nothing less than attempts at diverting this article into anti-Obama election campaigning.

:::Now, I don't personally mind it, and I don't even think it violates the stricter article probation. But apparently LotLE thinks my own comment quoted above is somehow in violation while he makes even stronger comments. This is nothing more than high-handed, double-standard, bullying behavior. 

:::Justifying another closure of a discussion because of it is what I mean by "childish". Can I get this resolved on this page or do I need to go to ArbCom to get permission to actually have a discussion on a talk page? Does anyone really think that shutting down a freaking ''discussion'' isn't going to poison the atmosphere even further? Does anyone have any assumption of any good faith on Wikidemon's part anymore? Am I supposed to edit war a discussion closure in order to have an ordinary discussion on an article talk page? -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 20:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::::More insults?  After everything else, "childish" is only an incremental addition.  But you do not seem to get it.  Edit the Obama articles only if you can do so without complaining about other editors.  Otherwise, do not edit those articles.  And please stop making up accusations against me.  That is simple.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 00:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
How much longer is Wikidemon and co. going to be allowed to harras and abuse other users and engage in widespread article ownership before someone here steps in and puts an end to it? Is Arbitration the only way to resolve this? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 23:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:Stop playing games here.  My editing under no legitimate question, only the subject of abuse.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 00:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparantly we haven't learned that ANI is not dispute resolution. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 00:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Grsz11 - lol.  thank you for that. {{=)}}  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 00:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::I mean, it's not like this same editors have been through this countless times already... '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 00:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It's like spectator sport, Wikipedia style. Two gladiators battling it out to the death in the ring. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 23:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:To Grsz11: Frankly, I don't think this can properly be described as a content dispute. The content in question has been rejected repeatedly, and brought up repeatedly by the same group of users. It has become disruptive because hardly anything else can even be discussed on the page anymore. It's just one constant stream of AyersAyersAyersAyers, with only the odd break for Rezko/Wright/BornInKenya/SecretMuslim/CampaignFringeStuffOfTheDay. Seriously, take a look at the edit history for the last 500 edits or so on the page. How many threads have resulted in constructive edits to the page? --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 16:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== obvious sock needs blocking ==

{{user5|119.30.69.117}} Obvious sockpuppet of [[User:NisarKand]], last incarnation is already-blocked [[User:Pakhtunking]], with almost identical edits, including the same vandalism to user pages [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Scythian77&diff=prev&oldid=243496016][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AScythian77&diff=241628868&oldid=241627775], re-adding the same images again to the same article[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pashtun_people&diff=prev&oldid=243500644][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pashtun_people&diff=241624942&oldid=241581996] and blaming the same user [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Tombseye&diff=prev&oldid=243497120][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pashtun_people&diff=241632406&oldid=241630631]. Passes [[WP:DUCK]] with flying colors. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 22:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:I hardblocked the IP for a month. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 22:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

He has resurfaced as [[User:User:119.30.70.82]] and [[User:119.30.75.122]]. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 11:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I notified Alison, since she's familiar with that individual. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#001F7F;">talk</span>]]</sup> 13:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

: As Nisarkand is back causing problems again, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:UKZoo&diff=prev&oldid=243103757 being his usual self], you can also reblock 119.30.64.0/20, softblocked for a long period. A rangecheck has showed up the following accounts. These are 100% {{confirmed}} as being NisarKand, so feel free to block them:

:#{{Userlinks|PitTorian}}
:#{{Userlinks|Artimand}}
:#{{Userlinks|Bizmarkie}}

: - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 14:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::{{done}} [[User:J.delanoy|<span style="color:green;">J'''.'''delanoy</span>]][[User Talk:J.delanoy|<sup style="color:red;">gabs</sup>]][[Special:Contributions/J.delanoy|<sub style="color:blue;">adds</sub>]] 14:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Rangeblock {{done}} for 6 months (anon only). -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#001F7F;">talk</span>]]</sup> 14:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Henotheism]] and [[User:VedicScience]] ==

can someone please take a look at these diffs, and figure out how to deal with this.  [[user:VedicScience]] has been engaged in a whole lot of non-productive character assaults on [[talk:henotheism]], against various editors (not really me, except for a couple of snipes).  see: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AHenotheism&diff=243245755&oldid=243232106 his first post there], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243251502], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243294424], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243308200], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243346469], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243392183], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243498687 this] in response to me warning him about attacking other editors, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henotheism&diff=next&oldid=243510589 this] after I pointed him to the talk page guidelines, and explained (a bit sharply, I'll admit) that it was unacceptable behavior.  I've been archiving the off-topic stuff as it occurs on the hope that would stop it, but it hasn't, and I'm tired of cleaning up after him.

while I'm at it, let me air my suspicion that [[user:ADvaitaFan]] is really a sock that VedicScience created when he was last on block.  the account was created a day or so after the block began, their editing styles, language, POVs and positions are eerily similar, and they have a marvelous mutual support network going.  I wasn't going to worry about it, but since I'm making this report anyway...  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 22:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

: I would ask that someone review [[User_talk:VedicScience#Please_watch_dubious_admin_Dougweller|my attempts to inform VedicScience of what to do]].  His responses should be enough. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 03:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: His [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/VedicScience&diff=prev&oldid=243510266 comments] to the sock puppetry case at [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/VedicScience]] should also help clarify. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 03:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Forget it.  After [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:VedicScience&diff=prev&oldid=243590589 this ridiculous response], I blocked him for a week.  He's clearly not interested in working with other people here.  Ludwigs, watch and see what happens with ADvaitaFan during the next week. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 05:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:The suspected sock is in the same city. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User talk:YellowMonkey#Straw_poll_for_selecting_photos_of_Australia_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics|<span style="color:#FA8605;">click here to choose Australia's next top model</span>]]'') 05:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::just to add a note of irony, I'm going to take a modified version of the changes that he wanted to make and edit them in.  they weren't bad, really, but all that extra baggage... --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 06:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Henotheism. It's always something. We need an article about Pollytheism, the little-known religion of the Amazon jungle that worships parrots. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 06:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Pollytheism is derived from the Catholic tradition, you know - all that cracker eating...  {{=)|biggrin}} --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 06:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Ba-DUM-bum. You've been great folks, now let's all welcome the [[Atlanta Rhythm Section]]! [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 07:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Aaawk! [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 07:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::So, are they Atlanta Crackers? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 07:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::We're scraping the bottom of the cracker barrel here. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 07:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Still...beautiful plumage though, eh? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 15:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::The plumage don't enter into it! If you had not nailed it on its perch, it would be pushin' up the daisies! Oh, wait, that's not the Amazon parrot - that's the Norwegian Blue. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 15:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::: (laughing too hard to type anything coherent)  --[[User:Elonka|El]][[User talk:Elonka|on]][[Special:Contributions/Elonka|ka]] 17:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::: You're making an assumption that any of the previous 8 posts were even remotely coherent in their own right...<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 17:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Proposed Range Block of [[Special:Contributions/82.132.136.192/27|82.132.136.192/27]] ==

*{{Checkip|82.132.136.193}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.194}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.195}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.196}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.197}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.198}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.199}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.200}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.201}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.202}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.203}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.204}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.205}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.207}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.208}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.209}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.210}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.211}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.213}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.214}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.215}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.216}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.219}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.220}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.221}}
*{{Checkip|82.132.136.222}}

This guy has been vandalizing pages for months now, including user pages ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=-&curid=19050070&diff=232530080] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Troy_07&diff=next&oldid=232242066]) and other pages like [[Sienna Miller]]. He's been going around feeling good about himself because he can [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Troy_07&oldid=232241659#me_again_.28my_ip_keeps_changing.21.21.29 change his IP] by switching his Iphone on and off [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Luna_Santin&oldid=232264074#I.27m_not_trying_to_acomplish_anything_if_I.27m_honest._Why_are_u_getting_involved_tho.3F]. Luckily, he's in a pretty small range. There's only [http://toolserver.org/~chm/blockcalc.php?submitted=permanent&ipbox=82.132.136.193+82.132.136.194+82.132.136.195+82.132.136.196+82.132.136.197+82.132.136.198+82.132.136.199+82.132.136.200+82.132.136.201+82.132.136.202+82.132.136.203+82.132.136.204+82.132.136.205+82.132.136.207+82.132.136.208+82.132.136.209+82.132.136.210+82.132.136.211+82.132.136.213+82.132.136.214+82.132.136.215+82.132.136.216+82.132.136.219+82.132.136.220+82.132.136.221+82.132.136.222 32 ips in there], and all of them have been the same person going back and forth on the same IPs or have been allocated but unused thus far.


The most recent edits have been made by [[Special:Contributions/82.132.136.207|82.132.136.207]], [[Special:Contributions/82.132.136.215|82.132.136.215]] and [[Special:Contributions/82.132.136.211|82.132.136.211]]. The latter two made edits were made on the same day at the same article. The last one made the most recent edit and was a used IP from a couple of months ago. All of them must be the same guy. At this point, I would assume that it's safe to make a range block that expires within about a month. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 02:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:{{done}} for two weeks. We can extend if that works, but I'm not sure it will, so I didn't block for longer. Well-written suggestion, Troy.--[[User:Chaser|chaser]] - [[User_talk:Chaser|t]] 02:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks :) I'll keep an eye on it. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 02:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: This should be okay to do, per checkuser, but one thing; '''don't hardblock it''', whatever happens!! It's teeming with legit editors including about a half-dozen UK admins :) - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 15:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== Block needed ==

{{resolved}}
As per results at [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Girl Get it]], {{user|CHECKORUP}} is a confirmed sockpuppet of banned [[User:Brexx]]. Could an available admin please indef block?

Thanks! [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] <small>([[User talk:SWik78|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SWik78|contribs]])</small> 16:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Done already :) I tagged the pages. -- [[User:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#002BB8;">lucasbfr</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Lucasbfr|<span style="color:#001F7F;">talk</span>]]</sup> 16:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== Olana North ==

{{vandal|Olana North}} has self-identified as a sock-puppet, and labelled their user and talk pages as such, saying that they have been blocked, although no such block appears to be in place. Is this allowable? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 12:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:The entries immediately preceding, on the user and talk pages respectively [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Olana_North&diff=243396609&oldid=243396313] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Olana_North&diff=243396233&oldid=242732333] give a clue that the user (with whom you've had some interaction) is not happy about something. Not having read the user's contrib's in detail, I couldn't say ''what'' it's not happy about, although at least in part it's obviously not happy with ''you''. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Olana_North&diff=242707847&oldid=242707640] It appears to go back, in part, to this rather snippy comment [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Trains&diff=prev&oldid=242689229] by Olana North. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::In short, the user is either telling the truth about being a sockpuppet, or more likely is just "pouting". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, Olana is distraught over a past event. I removed the block notices as the user is not blocked. I don't understand the use of the vandal template here. I see no vandalism. I see a productive user who feels they got treated unfairly. Did not see what the problem was. Probably the best course would be to leave them alone unless they reach out for advice or help. And probably it would be a good idea if Andy in particular left them alone. [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 14:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts&oldid=243395709#Olana_North It all involves this Wikietiquette discussion]. I would ask both editors to avoid making intemperate remarks and to  avoid one another if they cannot get along. Cheers, [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 14:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I have made no intemperate remarks; but have been the target of an unprovoked and unwarranted personal attack. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 15:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Which was discussed at the Wikietiquette page. The conclusion of that discussion was unsatisfactory to Olan. So you  come here with a complaint about his user page, which has nothing that I can see to do with you. You seem to be striving to continue a conflict rather than to leave it be. What more can anyone do?  My suggestion still stands-- you both need to leave one another alone. Cheers, [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 15:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I came here with a question. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 15:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I think the answer is--- leave him alone. Generally, what one does on one's user page is their own business. I've removed the sockpuppet template. And you have again used the {{{vandal}}} template-- something Olan strongly objected to before. ''That'' was most intemperate. You seem intent on fanning the flames of a conflict that should be allowed to burn out? [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 15:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::"Generally, what one does on one's user page is their own business. I've removed the sockpuppet template." You appear to contradict yourself. "And you have again used the {{{vandal}}} template" Indeed. Why should I not? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 15:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What am I missing here?  If someone ''self-identifies'' as a sockpuppet of an indef-blocked user, shouldn't they be indef blocked as well?  Either they are the same person, in which case they should be blocked for avoiding their block to edit the same articles that got them into trouble before, or they are not the same person, in which case they should be blocked for trolling/disruption/etc.  Right? --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 15:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:Confessing to a "crime" does not prove "guilt". They might just be extremely annoyed and are looking for an artificial means to get indef-blocked other than simply asking to be indef-blocked. Or they might actually be a sock. Presumably a checkuser could determine the truth of the situation. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 16:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::It is also possible for someone to impersonate an indef blocked user. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 16:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Certainly. The question is, to what extent? If posting a phony block template is as far as it goes, it's not much of an impersonation. If they study the behavior and edits of the blocked user and try to imitate them, that would be an impersonation. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 16:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking at just the page mentioned in the wikiquette discussion [[List of crossings of the River Severn]], on the face of it I would tend to agree with Olana's removal of Pigs-on-the-wing's data line, since it does not appear to make any sense. Regardless of that, in essence, you have a content dispute here. A content dispute is not vandalism. And calling someone a vandal is more of a personal attack than calling you ''by your own user ID'', which in past you have claimed to be a "personal attack". It strikes me that you are seeing personal attacks everywhere, and that you would be well advised to re-focus on what matters, which is article content. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 16:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:The unambiguous personal attacks raised on WP:WQA were not imagined and are not "a content dispute", As to: "''calling you ''by your own user ID'', which in past you have claimed to be a "personal attack"''" Please cite me doing so; or calling the editor concerned a vandal. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 17:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Given below is the text that you placed at the top of this page <blockquote>
<nowiki>"{{vandal|Olana North}}</nowiki> has self-identified as a sock-puppet ..."
</blockquote>
::It clearly shows that you identify the other editor as a vandal because you have used the <nowiki>{{vandal}}</nowiki> template.  [[Special:Contributions/92.13.89.158|92.13.89.158]] ([[User talk:92.13.89.158|talk]]) 09:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::In fairness, he might have chosen that template simply because it conveniently displays several links connected with a given user. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Precisely. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 11:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::You know very well that I'm talking about you complaining when people shorten your own chosen user ID to "Pigs" and then call it a "personal attack". Some might call your reaction "managing other peoples' behavior". I call it "nannyism" - just as your complaint at the top of this section constitutes nannyism. Whatever term is used, that behavior doesn't work. Who cares what they call you? I get called all sorts of nicknames. ''It's not important.'' Article content is what's important. Looking for personal attacks is a distraction you've allowed yourself to get pulled into. Focus on the articles, and you'll be much happier. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 17:17, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Bugs, I think that the whole "Pigs = personal attack?" issue is a distraction that ''you'' allow yourself to get pulled into whenever Andy posts here. This isn't the first time you've mentioned it. Maybe it should be the last. How about a nice cup of [[WP:TEA]]?  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 18:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Thank you for showing the falsehood of your assertion that I have claimed "the use of my own user ID" to be a personal attack; as to using a word derived from it as a personal attack; you'll have to take that up with Arbcom, who decreed it to be such; I don;t recall ever labelling it so. I made no complaint here, I asked a question, you seem not to {{WP:AGF|AGF]]. I'm quite happy with my track record of improving both articles and the templates which enhance them. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 19:18, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::::It's nice to know ArbCom has free time to spend on such a petty, nannyistic issue. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 00:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::ICPC; again, I suggest you take that up with them; I didn't.  [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 10:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Since you did not raise the issue, then, I assume you personally don't care if someone shortens your user ID to "Pigs". (That's assuming your cryptic 'ICPC' means "I can't personally care".) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Also, where is the link to that ArbCom case? If they seriously made such a ruling, I want to know about it, and then I'll leave the subject alone. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::You know very well that that is not the case. My name is Andy Mabbett. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 11:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pigsonthewing#Use_of_the_epithet_.22Pigs.22 Here] is an arbcom view on the epithet - it seems that Arbcom did view it as a 'personal attack' (AM having made it clear many times that he prefers to be called Andy Mabbett). Andy seems to be right about Olana North, just as he was about the copyvio last week. Perhaps a promotion to Arbcom ... [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 12:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::That makes for interesting reading, and I can see why Pigs-on-the-wing didn't want to bring it up himself, as it does not speak very highly of him, for sure. I also get from it that the user Karmafist was asked not to call Pigs-on-the-wing by an abbreviation of his own chosen user ID, but that seems to be a minor and petty issue in and of itself, it's just part of the overall picture. I say again, whatever user ID someone chooses, they bear the consequences of it. If they don't want to be called Pigs, they ought not have that in their user ID. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 21:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Why did [[User:Pigsonthewing]] raise a complaint in two places, Wikiquette and here? What reason or motive is there?  It seems overkill to attempt to obtain admin intervention over a dispute (if thats what it can be called) with the same editor twice.   I feel that there is something else going on here, and it strikes me of an editor trying to use the wikipedia policy guide to beat everyone that disgrees with him around the head. [[Special:Contributions/92.14.113.97|92.14.113.97]] ([[User talk:92.14.113.97|talk]]) 19:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::: There were two issues, and each was raised at the appropriate forum. There's no need to create more drama here, is there? [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
* Picking a self-alleged sock [[user:Sheepcot]] at random, I look at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Sheepcot Sheepcot's edits] and immediately see an interaction with Andy Mabbett, aka [[User:Pigsonthewing]]. Hmmm. [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 21:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
: * Ditto [[User:ALECTRIC451]]. [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 23:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Both of the IP addresses in the conversation above resolve to the same source, as does the IP making threats about being able to find Pigsonthewing (see discussion further down the page). As does the IP that Olana North reverted twice ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glossary_of_UK_railway_terminology&diff=prev&oldid=243384157] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:92.8.21.254&diff=prev&oldid=243384220]) shortly before declaring herself a sockpuppet... of someone who, as Occuli notes, isn't just a random previous sockpuppeter, but one who had issues with Pigsonthewing specifically. I'm thinking maybe she wasn't lying. She says she is a banned sockpuppetter. There's some evidence that might be the case. Who are we to argue? AGF and all. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 11:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::So, what can be done technically to choke off this pest? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, I went ahead and blocked the Olana North account. Given that it started up shortly after Canterberry departed and had extensive overlap (e.g. both accounts also had conflicts with [[User:EdJogg]]) I think it is clear that this really was a Canterberry sock. As to preventing further sockpuppeting and/or anon well-poisoning. Neither possible nor worth bothering with IMO. I'd suggest just ignoring this person until they outgrow it. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 11:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Thank you. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 11:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Postscript: {{vandal|North Olana}} may be of interest; see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Olana_North&diff=197552529&oldid=197538458 this comment]. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 18:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::I thought there was a way to block not just the user ID but also the IP address or addresses that user ID uses. That does not mean it's necessary, but I had thought it was at least possible. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 11:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Yes, and I did set the system to autoblock IPs used by Olana North. However, most users come into Wikipedia through an ISP which assigns them a different IP address every time they connect to the internet. This means that the only way to prevent them from making IP posts or creating a sockpuppet would be to 'range block' all the IP addresses which that ISP uses. Which would also block anyone else using the same ISP. Ergo, we don't do that. Even in cases where someone has a static IP address or comes in from a small range that we '''CAN''' block without impacting other users... blocking such is still no guarantee of keeping them out. They can just go through a different provider. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 11:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I don't think I'm talking out-of-turn here. The 'confrontations' with me were comparatively minor disagreements, such as any two editors might have occasionally. With Olana North/Canterberry we are dealing with someone who has a passion for editing railway-related articles on WP, and whose contributions are, by-and-large, positive. (For example, this year he was the driving force behind a push to get all the articles noted as within UK Railways WikiProject assessed for article quality - well over 1000 articles at the start of the drive, IIRC.) On the other hand, his 'character' occasionally takes on a more confrontational mode (the phrase 'hot-headed' springs to mind), and this is when he has resorted to sock-puppetry. When Olana North appeared at the beginning of the year I recognised the editing style and tried to warn him, in a disguised way, that further sockpuppetry would not be tolerated by others at WP. Until the last week I was not aware of any significant incidents taking place. That it has taken most of this year before there was any trouble suggests to me that he had been doing a reasonable job at controlling his strong opinions and consequent urge to sock-puppet.

:::::::I do not for one minute condone the negative, confrontational, personal or puppet-like behaviour that this editor occasionally exhibits. What I have recognised is that he has been a valuable contributor to WP over the years, and presumably has some form of recurring 'personal problem', whatever that might be, which occasionally causes these lapses. As for blocking him; that has been done before, and he knows enough to be able to work around the blocks. What he really needs is to be able to recognise when confrontational situations are likely to occur, and learn to walk away from them rather than to get involved.

:::::::(Incidentally, I am NOT a sockpuppet of Canterberry (nor Pigsonthewing) (check all the IP addresses you like) nor have I ever met him in person. My personal beliefs are that an editor should be given a chance to redeem themselves after an indiscretion (such has gone on here), rather than being blocked indefinitely, and that on balance this particular editor is a positive contributor to WP. I just wish he'd put a sock in his mouth occasionally rather than writing comments likely to antagonise others.)
:::::::[[User:EdJogg|EdJogg]] ([[User talk:EdJogg|talk]]) 12:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:(Outdent) Ok, call me crazy here ... from my viewing, Olana has not been disruptive since their "return".  Although being banned under one username and returning with another without asking nicely is a "bad thing", it ''appears'' that they had changed their stripes.  However, someone has a personal beef with the previous nickname, who then noticed similarities, and took up the personal beef again (hence the WQA and this AN/I).  Are editors not allowed to be reformed?  Do we not run the risk of turning a newly-reformed editor into a newly-unreformed editor?  *climbs off soap-box* <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 15:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::And who do you think had that "beef"? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 18:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::''(ec)'' Ok, you're crazy. :]
::Seriously though, I don't think anyone publicly accused Olana of being Canterberry before Olana indicated so themself. As to reform... threatening to track someone down in real life aint a great indicator of such. If they want to come back and contribute without conflict they should either just '''do''' that or announce that they'd like the Canterberry (or whichever other) account unblocked and that they promise not to sockpuppet and/or disrupt again. No biggie. But no, this isn't a case of 'risking turning someone into a newly-unreformed editor'... that ship clearly sailed several days ago. --[[User talk:CBDunkerson|CBD]] 18:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Presumably there could be any number of banned or indef-blocked editors who come back under a new ID and remain undetected. But that would only happen if they either (1) switched to an entirely new subject of interest; or (2) had a complete change of attitude; or preferably (3) both. I would think that is rather unlikely, but whether likely or not, the ones that get caught usually do so because they can't stay away from where they were before. "It's hard for a leopard to change its stripes", as I like to say. :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 21:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

=== Anon off-wiki threat ===

It takes more than this to phase me, but please note this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Pigsonthewing&diff=prev&oldid=243615432 off-wiki threat]. Perhaps the poster doesn't realise that their IP address also makes them identifiable. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 09:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:Seems to me he's making that veiled threat on-wiki, not off-wiki.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 10:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:I think he meant the IP is making a threat to do something off-wiki. Anyway, if the IP address is stupid enough to leave a comment like that, then he's also stupid enough not to know how easily he could theoretically be found. However, it also points up the risk in using one's real name on an internet site (assuming you are actually using your real name - if not, "never mind"). In any case, it could warrant some type of block of that IP, but it's the only entry for that IP, so such a block might be ineffective. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 10:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::I think the IP knew ''exactly'' that it could be traced, after all, that is what is stated in the message. The fact that there is only one edit suggests, ''in extremis'' that the poster sought-out a different machine (at an Internet cafe, maybe) in order to post this.
::Also, just because a veiled threat has been made, there is no reason to suggest that the threat will be taken any further.
::[[User:EdJogg|EdJogg]] ([[User talk:EdJogg|talk]]) 11:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User Talk: WikiCheckee]] ==

{{resolved|No administrative action is needed. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] <small>([[User talk:SWik78|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SWik78|contribs]])</small> 19:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)}}
A block is needed he has removed about 10- 15 warnings from his talkpage  including two i gave him today. A block is need he got away with about 12 image uploads without any warnings. I don't know who editors leaving warnings don't notice things like that. I come across two users like Wikicheckee everyday its ridiculous. [[User:Ogioh|Ogioh]] ([[User talk:Ogioh|talk]]) 18:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:There's actually no rule against removing warnings from your talk page - it is understood by most administrators to be acknowledgment that you've read them.  I'll check into contributions. :-)  - [[User Talk:Philippe|<span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Philippe</span>]] 18:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Honest, but i've been on talk pages that have been warned for removing their warnings? [[User:Ogioh|Ogioh]] ([[User talk:Ogioh|talk]]) 18:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::They shouldn't have been. It is completely allowed to remove warnings from your talk page...again, it is evidence they have been read. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 18:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I've reverted the warning about deletion, but user has not uploaded any images since the last warning; however some clue about image policy needs to be applied, and will be if it happens again. --[[User:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#0000FF">Rodhull</span>]][[User_talk:Rodhullandemu|<span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#FF0000">andemu</span>]] 18:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::As per [[WP:USER]], editors may remove messages at will from their own talk pages. While we may ''prefer'' that comments be archived instead, policy does not prohibit users -including anonymous editors- from deleting messages from their own talk pages. The only kinds of talk page messages that should not be removed (as per [[WP:BLANKING]]) are declined unblock requests (but only while the block is still in effect), confirmed sockpuppet notices, or IP header templates (for unregistered editors). It should also be noted that these exceptions only exist to keep a user from potentially gaming the system. Editors who insist on reverting the removal of warnings have in the past been blocked for [[WP:HARASS|harassment]] and/or [[WP:3RR|3RR]]. --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 18:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I don't really think it is evidence they've been read. If you leave a message on my page I can easily remove it without reading it.--[[User:Crossmr|Crossmr]] ([[User talk:Crossmr|talk]]) 22:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
KK, i think we can call this one resolved. [[User:Ogioh|Ogioh]] ([[User talk:Ogioh|talk]]) 18:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Thesamami]] ==

{{user|Thesamami}} seems to be an account devoted to promoting the news aggregration site Wopular. The contributions consist only of adding links to Wopular, sometimes replacing links to normal new sources with links to Wopular, and including links to pages that aren't about a specific article but are effectively search results that change over time (a violation of [[WP:LINKSTOAVOID]]). I posted on the user's talk page about it, and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThesamami&diff=243708096&oldid=242860757 my post was removed]. Should anything be done? —[[User:KCinDC|KCinDC]] ([[User talk:KCinDC|talk]]) 18:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Removal of your warning isn't a problem; as far as we're concerned, we know they saw it. Since the posting of links continued, I've left another warning. Let's see if they want to read (and follow) the guidelines.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 19:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Hes also removed your warning without comment and added the link to 4 pages since. I warned up to warning level 4 today for his most recent edits and made sure they all was removed. It's pretty clear his account is primarily used to add those links. —&nbsp;<b>[[User:Raeky|<i style="color:#6600FF;">raeky</i>]]</b>&nbsp;<sup>([[User talk:Raeky|<span style="color:#0033FF;">talk</span>]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/Raeky|<span style="color:#00CC00;">edits</span>]])</sup> 05:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

== 216.188.192.218 has a history of being a vandal ==

{{resolved|1=Already warned.--[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 18:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)}}
They recently vandalized the LHC article.  Looking at their history it shows adding smart-ass comments and blanking pages.  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/66.64.16.58|66.64.16.58]] ([[User talk:66.64.16.58|talk]]) 18:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Lara Logan gossip ==

* Page: {{article|Lara Logan}}

[[Page 6]], the gossip column of the [[New York Post]], has reported that [[Lara Logan]], a CBS reporter, is under investigation for taking souvenirs from Iraq. [http://www.nypost.com/seven/10032008/gossip/pagesix/us_eye_on_logans_iraq_loot_131885.htm]. {{userlinks|InaMaka}} argues that this is a reliable source and has adding this information into the article: [[Lara Logan#Iraq Looting Controversy]]. He also has included blogs and other non-reliable sources in support, arguing that sometimes blogs are allowed. I have attempted to discuss this matter with him at [[Talk:Lara Logan#Iraq Looting Controversy]] and all I get in response is that the Post is a reliable source and an edit war and that Richard Johnson, the writer, is a reporter. He is a gossip columnist. Please note from the horses mouth:<blockquote><b>Richard Johnson</b>, Paula Froelich, Cindy Adams and Liz Smith bring you celebrity <b>gossip</b> from Hollywood to the Hamptons. [emphasis added] [http://www.nypost.com/gossip/gossip.htm from (note the url's use of the word gossip to boot) www.nypost.com/gossip/gossip]</blockquote> [[Page 6]] has no reputation for accuracy or fact checking. Also, note from this ABC News report that Richard Johnson, a "Gossip Columnist", acknowledges [[Page 6]] [[payola]].[http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Entertainment/story?id=3189044] To add to the lack of reputation of [[Page 6]], see this article: [http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=109320] which states, "Former 'Page Six' Gossip Admits to Making Stuff Up! (For His Novel)". This is gossip. I'm all for adding this information when and if a mainstream source known for fact checking actually reports on this. However, I don't want to edit war on this matter. InaMaka is currently banned for 31 hours because of 3RR violation (his second) -- and please take note of the general tenor of his talk page. I brought this matter up on ANI/BIO at [[WP:BLPN#Lara Logan gossip]] but no action was taken. At this point in time, a Wikipedia BLP has the accusation that a) Lara Logan stole and b) is under investigation. The source? A gossip columnist. Isn't this sort of thing what [[WP:BLP]] is designed to preclude? Thanks. [[User:Therefore|&#8756;&nbsp;Therefore]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Therefore|cogito]]·[[Special:Contributions/Therefore|sum]]</small> 20:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Page Six is being sued for another story they ran, and later admitted that they didn't verify the facts: [http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0626082opie1.html] [[User:Arakunem|<b>Arakunem</b>]][[User talk:Arakunem|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 20:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::They won't let me use blogs to reference the types of music played at baseball parks, so I don't see how they could allow blogs on subjects like this. "Taking souvenirs"? What did they do, forget to pay the sales tax? Next thing, they'll be arresting dead soldiers for taking the "souvenir" of the bullet that killed them. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 20:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I've removed the section; the most reliable source was indeed a gossip column. I've also warned the (currently blocked) user InaMaka about BLP violations, and posted a note to [[Talk:Lara Logan#Iraq Looting Controversy]]. Hopefully that will be the end of the problem.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::I appreciate the timely resolution, SS. [[User:Therefore|&#8756;&nbsp;Therefore]]&nbsp;<small>[[User talk:Therefore|cogito]]·[[Special:Contributions/Therefore|sum]]</small> 22:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Anything that turns up on this page tends to attract more eyes and a better chance of quick reversion if the blocked editor starts doing it again after his block expires. Lara Logan certainly does attract trouble, though. There are endless Google references about her, and not many of them elevate her character. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 22:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== Abusive IP 77.42.134.215 ==

*{{IPvandal|77.42.134.215}} Using abusive edit summaries and edit warring. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Masonic_conspiracy_theories&diff=243757866&oldid=243563444 Insulting edit summary] [[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 23:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:You could try [[WP:AIV]], but he only has the one entry, so it's unlikely he'll be blocked. Keep an eye on him and see if he, or possibly other IP's, post the same kind of stuff. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 23:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks Baseball Bugs. Nice to see you again. Take care. Tasos ([[User:Tasoskessaris|Dr.K.]] ([[User talk:Tasoskessaris|talk]]) 00:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC))

== [[User:Ramu50]] ==

{{userlinks|Ramu50}} has been editing multiple templates tendentiously, such as [[Template:AMD processors]], [[Template:CPU technologies]] and [[Template:Sun Microsystems]]. He has been asked and warned by multiple editors repeatedly to cease his tendentious editing and from making personal attacks. Recent personal attacks directed at me include these: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:AMD_processors&curid=4866219&diff=243710513&oldid=243608719] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:AMD_processors&curid=4866219&diff=243710783&oldid=243710513] at [[Template talk:AMD processors]] and this one: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:CPU_technologies&curid=14176715&diff=243759167&oldid=239959984] at [[Template talk:CPU technologies]]. In [[Template talk:AMD processors]], Ramu50 has accused me of "collaborating with other editors against him" and being "unqualified to content at Wikipedia" or something to that effect. In [[Template talk:CPU technologies]], Ramu50 has attributed statements which I do not recall making without any proof such as a link to diff, in addition to telling me to, "''Get real idoit...''". In all cases, a brief look at the edit histories of the templates' and associated talk pages will provide more ample evidence of tendentious editing and personal attacks.

There have been two prior incidents reported by other editors as a result of Ramu50's tendentious editing and personal attacks, one at the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive481#User:Ramu50|Administrators' noticeboard]] and the other at the [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts/archive51#User:Ramu50|Wikiquette alerts]]. However, the concerns raised by me do not appear to have been resolved. [[User:Rilak|Rilak]] ([[User talk:Rilak|talk]]) 06:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
== Negabandit86 and NegativeEnergyChip321 ==

A couple of weeks ago, I warned {{userlinks|Negabandit86}} against creating a particular article or write a section in another relevant article regarding a fictional character that has no clear or relevant third party references concerning the character's existance. I warned Negabandit86 multiple times and it became apparent that he understood the warnings. However, yesterday, while viewing my watchlist, I found a questionable edit to another article by {{userlinks|NegativeEnergyChip321}}, and when viewing his talk page, it became clear that Negabandit86 had "recruited" NegativeEnergyChip321 from a Wikia or similar fan project. Today, when I checked my watchlist, I found the article recreated by NegativeEnergyChip321. I deleted it, again, because I had not seen any references concerning the character's existence in relevant third party sources, and because it was clear that NegativeEnergyChip321 was a meatpuppet and had no other constructive edits, I indefinitely blocked him.  Was this the right course of action?  And should anything be done concerning Negabandit86?—[[User:Ryulong|<font color="blue">Ryūlóng</font>]] ([[User talk:Ryulong|<font color="gold">竜龙</font>]]) 22:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

: I'd warn him and make it clear that another attempt at meatpuppetry will result in a long block.  It's one thing to mess around and get yourself blocked, but I hate the idea of potential new users coming here and getting themselves blocked due to "encouragement" from others.  I'm going to notify him of this section as well, in case he has something to say in his defense. -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 09:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:: Oh, forget that.  I see the nonsense at [[User talk:Ryulong]].  You are a much more patient man than me.  He's been warned about his off-wiki meat puppetry.  One more time and I'd whacked for a while (maybe not permanently though) -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 09:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Moleman 9002]] ==

{{resolved}}
So, [[User Talk:Moleman 9000]] was indef blocked for making fairly nasty personal threats. [[User Talk:Moleman 9001]] is also a indef blocked, self-admitted sock of Moleman 9000. Now appears [[User:Moleman 9002]]. I'd rather not go to SSP, it's pretty blatant and obvious, so I'll post here, hoping for some wikilove. [[User:Yngvarr|Yngvarr]] [[User talk:Yngvarr|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Yngvarr|(c)]] 09:06, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Indef blocked. Pretty obvious indeed. [[User:Fram|Fram]] ([[User talk:Fram|talk]]) 09:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Swamilive]] sockpuppet rampage ==

[[User:Swamilive]], who you may remember from such ANI reports as [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive480#User:Swamilive_sockpuppet_activity]], is back again making still more sockpuppets. There's an open SSP case at [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/72.35.4.220]] and a related checkuser case at [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/72.35.4.220]], but neither seems to be getting any admin attention. This [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Delicious_carbuncle&diff=243253128&oldid=243239391 query] on my talk page about the record for number of sockpuppets doesn't suggest any indication of stopping. Can someone please take a look at the SSP case and consider if a range block is appropriate? Since the user has self-identified, contacting their ISP may also be an option. Thanks. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:See also the related [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Graham's Packed Lunch]]. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::There is another option here.  This is Swamilive, incidentally.  A few weeks ago, I had offered to stop with my sockpuppetry '''and''' my vandalism provided that I could create one "fresh start" account with which I could make legitimate edits to existing articles and perhaps introduce new articles which are well-sourced.  I believe I brought up this suggestion to both [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] and [[User:Black Kite|Black Kite]] (likely on one of the sockpuppet talk pages).  My request was sharply declined, however, despite [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Clean_start_under_a_new_name this policy].  My longstanding use of sockpuppets for vandalism purposes ''requires'' some trust on everyone's part in regard to my proposed vandalism-free account.  I have demonstrated that I am crafty enough to circumvent the protection guidelines in place within Wikipedia, but I insist that if granted a fresh start, I would not make use of the system's loopholes for any reason.  Give me a fresh start, and you won't hear about Swamilive again.  This I promise you. [[User:James Various|James Various]] ([[User talk:James Various|talk]]) 22:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::In general, making threats and committing acts of vandalism does not make other users likely to give you what you want.  Are you you familiar with the political principle, "Never negotiate with terrorists?" As you say, you have the technical knowledge to create an account and use it to make constructive edits, and probably, no one would even notice that you were a formerly disruptive user.  You have not chosen to do this; there doesn't seem to be any administrative action called for.-[[User:FisherQueen|FisherQueen]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:FisherQueen|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/FisherQueen|contribs]])</span> 22:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Let's not let the appearance of the sockmaster distract us from why I brought this up again. Admin attention required on the SSP & CU cases, and perhaps a more effective block. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 22:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:See also [[WP:STICK]]. [[User:Bearian|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian|talk]]) 22:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Or my personal favorite: "[[Wikipedia:Revert, block, ignore|Revert, block, ignore]]" [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 22:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::  Swamilive, if you go and edit well for a month or so at another Wikimedia project, such as Wikinews and in the meantime don't disrupt or sock here I will likely support your unblocking. But this behavior just wastes our time and yours. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 23:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Bearian, was your [[WP:STICK]] comment directed at me or have I taken it out of context? I'm a bit confused as to how it applies here. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 14:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Yep, I agree with JoshuaZ. If Swamilive edits without disruption in any another Wikimedia project, he may be unblocked. [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 15:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser is complete (thanks to newly minted checkuser NishKid64) if any admin would like to deal with [Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/72.35.4.220 the SSP case]. Note that the IP in the case title is halfway through their week-long block and, as far as I know, there's nothing preventing more socking from the tbaytel.net IP ranges. Thanks to those who helped. [[User:Delicious carbuncle|Delicious carbuncle]] ([[User talk:Delicious carbuncle|talk]]) 14:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Closed [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/72.35.4.220]]. It appears no other blocks are necessary at this time. '''[[User:Cirt|Cirt]]''' ([[User talk:Cirt|talk]]) 14:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Sharankapoorkapoor]] ==

{{resolved|Account blocked for both block evasion and disruptive editing; articles deleted.--[[User:Tikiwont|Tikiwont]] ([[User talk:Tikiwont|talk]]) 13:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)}} 
User {{user5|Kapoorsharan}} is a sockpuppeteer who previously introduced a network of hoax article about Indian television shows, including creating weak offwiki sources (see [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Durga Maa Telefilms]]). Most of his known previous accounts were blocked.<br>He is back as {{user5|Sharankapoorkapoor}} and started creating pages again. Can someone block him and delete the [[Special:Contributions/Sharankapoorkapoor|9 pages he created]] please? I'm about to undo his other vandalism. Thanks. --<span style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant:small-caps;">[[User:Amalthea|<span style='color:#823824'>Amalthea</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Amalthea|Talk]]</sup></span> 02:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Jarajet89]] ==

{{Resolved|Blocked at AN/3.  May or may not solve the problem. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 14:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)}}
{{vandal|Jarajet89}}
This user has repeatedly removed a useful image from the [[Jazmine Sullivan]] article without giving any reason for it. I tried to warn him/her on his/her talk page, but he/she keeps doing it. The image is important to the article, but this user seems to have some problem with it for no apparent reason. I really hope someone can do something about this vandal. --[[user:Baby G.|<span style="color:#FF4500;">Baby G.</span>]] <small>([[user talk:Baby G.|<span style="color:#D1E231;">talk to me</span>]])</small> <small>([[Special:Contributions/Baby_G.|<span style="color:#B87333;">see my edits</span>]])</small> 20:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
*As far as I can see, s/he only removed it twice in the past few days.  After the first time you called Jarajet89 a vandal in the edit summary.  It's not at all clear that the removal of an image without comment is [[WP:VANDAL|vandalism]].  Just discuss it on the talk page.  If s/he refuses to discuss it or '''actually''' disrupts the article, you can go further down the [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]] chain.  I don't see how admin action is required here. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 20:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:I'll try to engage the editor and find out what's going on. From a look at his/her [[User talk:Jarajet89|talk age]] there may be a communication issue here - that's a lot of warnings for image issues, a bunch of warnings... hm. Anyone else want to look at this and see if a block is in order? [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 20:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::I would say a block is definitely in order until he makes some kind of reply to the numerous attempts to ascertain what he is doing.  If you look at his contributions, he appears to not reply to ANY attempts at communication.  Perhaps a block will get some reaction or at least a reply to questions, but from his past history, it seems doubtful.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 22:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

:Wait, what?  No.  We shouldn't be blocking someone just to get their attention.  If his edits are disruptive and will be disruptive in the future or if he crosses some bright line, then we block, otherwise we just go our separate ways.  In the last 9 days this editor has made two edits to the article in question.  Those have been reverted with some pretty strong warnings/assertions.  Since 16:03, 6 October 2008, he has made 8 constructive contributions to other articles and hasn't returned to the article in question.  The determination of "more harm than good" is another one and should be made with a lot more deliberation and gravity. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, it is not a go as you like and if someone asks you questions, you just ignore them all and just keep doing what your doing without explanation.  Are we supposed to read minds?  If they refuse to answer and continue on their merry way, this in itself is disruptive. Or should we just edit war and continue to replace whatever information is being removed because we can't get the editor to speak to us so we can either agree with their thinking or try and convince them why we believe it is better another way?  What do you think talkpages are for? So we can collaborate.  How would consensus work if we just ignored each other?--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 03:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I know.  I'm not saying that we should take this editor as a model to emulate.  I'm suggesting that, absent some real disruption, it is totally inappropriate to block and editor just to get him to respond to talk page messages.  My second point was that the disruption Baby G. claims is past tense.  Even if messages are not responded to, we assume they are acknowledged if editors continue to make contributions after the "you have new messages" link shows up.  So we can assume that at least the literal message "stop" has been sent.  <s>Since that message has been received, has the editor returned to the page in question?</s>  '''Was the editor edit warring in the first place'''?  Is it at all a concern to you that Baby G. responded to the removal of the image with the words "Stop, you vandal"?  We '''do not''' block to enforce [[Best practice]].  Likewise we shouldn't block just to prompt communication.  What is the likely outcome of a week long block to force him to the talk page?  A chastened and communicative editor?  Or the loss of a contributor who has 2437 contributions to the mainspace (that is more than me)?  If we block him to get his attention and he says "fuck it, I'll leave", was the whole affair worth it? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::He just went back and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jazmine_Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=243583624 removed the image] again.  I still don't want to block ''just'' for the purposes of communication. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 03:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::No ones advocating a weeks block, and nothing I have said should infer that.  Blocks are preventative in nature and having to engage in a revert off because an editor is ignoring pleas for communication is preventable in my mind.  I for one would not want to have to keep returning to an article I have interest in and constantly reverting the edit of a non-communicative editor.  Nor am I of a mind to let the editor game the system by being one shy of [[WP:3RR]] and leaving for a day or two, just to return and start the process all over again. That IS disruptive. Like I said previously, every attempt to get a reply to an inquiry made by other editors have been ignored.  Communicating isn't just best practices, it's necessary and not doing so shows a lack of care for the opinion of other editors and wastes their time having to deal over and over again with the same problem due to his lack of response.  But I'm through voicing my opinion on this.  Revert away and enjoy yourself in the process, I for one don't find it amusing.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 04:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::[[WP:AGF|Maybe he isn't gaming the system]]. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 04:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I think combining the lack of communication with the massive number of image upload warnings equals an editor who isn't getting the message very well. If there's more image removal, even after your notes on their talk page, then the block button will definitely come into play. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]]</small> 15:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jazmine_Sullivan&diff=prev&oldid=243742578 He's done it again.] Someone please block him! --[[user:Baby G.|<span style="color:#FF4500;">Baby G.</span>]] <small>([[user talk:Baby G.|<span style="color:#D1E231;">talk to me</span>]])</small> <small>([[Special:Contributions/Baby_G.|<span style="color:#B87333;">see my edits</span>]])</small> 21:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#Jarajet89_reported_by_Protonk_.28Result:_.29|Posted to 3RR]]. That will probably get a quick response. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::No comment. --<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 02:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::<s>That's good.  I'm glad you resisted the temptation to make some comment here.  That shows maturity and character.</s> I was just going to leave a snarky comment, but I'll elaborate.  If I can deal with someone and assume that they aren't irredeemable and perhaps just need to be engaged in a positive sense, I'm happy.  If it turns out that they don't respond to a '''real''' request for communication that isn't a block or a warning, then I am equally happy to be wrong.  We don't lose anything in waiting until actual disruption occurs before blocking.  Reverts are cheap and easy.  Blocking due do actual edit warring is easy.  It pisses me off quite a bit to see that you swore off this dispute, leaving me to deal with this mess that you predicted and then when I move through a perfectly reasonable course, you drop by with a snide comment.  I tried to talk to the editor as if he were a real person.  Failing that I made an unambiguous warning.  Then I reported him.  He will probably be blocked.  He may stop due to a block, he may not.  It doesn't help to drop by and let me know how smart you are.  It honestly just upsets me.  So hence the response initially. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Woah.  Dude you need to calm down.  My comment was on 3RR being fast not on all that you went through to try and rehabilitate this user. That's laudable as far as I'm concerned. Don't react with a chip on your shoulder by coming here and making assumptions of my intent.  I have no problem telling it how it is and it wasn't a snide remark to you, but on the process at 3RR recently. One further thing.  Don't ever in the future make disparaging comments about me until you take the time to review my contributions to this project and get a feel of who I am and my intent here. Ask me what I meant and you'll get the truth from this editor.  Your AGF went right out the door with this above comment and I find it highly offensive.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 02:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Hmm.  In my experience, "no comment" in a forum like this is best expressed by not leaving a comment.  If you remark "no comment", what am I to make of it.  Even assuming good faith, it still comes off as snide.  You could argue that it is unfair for me to say it was an attempt for you to sound smarter than me.  That's fair.  But it felt snide.  I was hurt.  That was me telling you that.  So let's try this.  You chimed into a thread.  I responded in a manner that didn't help matters.  You reciprocated.  We went down that chain until things got out of hand.  So in the end, no blood no foul.  Fair? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 04:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Fair.  Meet ya on a article in the future and perhaps we can contribute together in helping it reach GA or even FA sometime.  Cheers.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 04:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Whatever404]] removing AfD notices and deleting AfD discussion (without any consensus to do so) ==

He twice deleted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FOkorie_Okorocha&diff=243286177&oldid=242666667] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FOkorie_Okorocha&diff=243546847&oldid=243463251] all comments on [[Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Okorie_Okorocha]] an replaced them [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FOkorie_Okorocha&diff=243549002&oldid=243546847] with opinion that the AfD was incorrectly filed because the link from [[Okorie Okorocha]] was "red linked". As you can see from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Okorie_Okorocha&diff=242652016&oldid=242623970], the initial link was correct, so his claim that link was red is simply false.

He previously deleted the AfD notice on a different article [[Scene (youth subculture)]], again claiming that it was improperly filed [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scene_(youth_subculture)&diff=243450034&oldid=243449263], and he was warned for his action, which was considered vandalism [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWhatever404&diff=243454385&oldid=241227501] by a third editor.

His disruption of the AfD process must be prevented. Thanks, [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 00:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:His claim may have been true. I have recently seen redlinked AFD links that had to be purged with a [[Wikipedia:null edit|null edit]]. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 00:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Does that claim entitle him to close the AfD by himself and discard other editor's !votes [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FOkorie_Okorocha&diff=242666667&oldid=242652014]? Besides, AfD discussions with too few !votes are normally relisted, which seems to be the case here. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 00:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::No, but he could [[WP:AGF|reasonably believe that it does]]. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 00:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::This has been blown way out of proportion. Let's just calm down and assume good faith. Can we try to discuss this with the user, instead of just plastering his talk page with meaningless templates? Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 00:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I've notified the user on his talk page of this thread. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 00:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: I think I should revert the AfD back to a the non-blanked revision, and add a notice for the closing admin to relist it for 5 more days. Does this sound reasonable? Other options? Also, I didn't template him at all; someone else did that for a ''different'' article. The first time he blanked the AfD [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FOkorie_Okorocha&diff=243286177&oldid=242666667] he gave no details other than "the template at [[Okorie Okorocha]] was not filled out correctly", even though all evidence indicates that it was filled out correctly, so I just left him a note that he has been reverted because he did not give any substantive explanations for his unusual AfD closure [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWhatever404&diff=243465994&oldid=243454385]. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 01:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Given that there are no objections to my proposal, I'll change the AfD to reflect it. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 02:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The link upon the [[Okorie Okorocha]] page (within the template) was redlinked when I visited; two days after the filing.  AfDs are closed within a matter of days, so for the AfD to be that much closer to decision without there being a simple way for interested editors to weigh in is not acceptable.  The article does not get its "day in court", so to speak, if the "witnesses" cannot find the "courtroom".  

It may be noted that until happening upon this article, I had no idea who [[Okorie Okorocha]] was.  I have not voted and will not vote on this AfD, as I have no personal stake whatsoever in the outcome of this particular AFD.

Reading the above and ensuing discussion... can someone direct me to the appropriate people who maintain the MediaWiki software?  Or would someone be willing to raise the issue?  Thanks,  [[User:Whatever404|Whatever404]] ([[User talk:Whatever404|talk]]) 04:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Another point I would like to make (it's probably irrelevant, but): In regard to VG's claim about the process that ensued at [[Scene (youth subculture)]], the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scene_(youth_subculture)&diff=243449263&oldid=243368577 filing editor] and the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scene_(youth_subculture)&diff=243451575&oldid=243450549 reverting editor] were the same person, it was not a "third editor" that called my edit vandalism, but the same person who filed it.  Also, I had good reason for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scene_(youth_subculture)&diff=243450034&oldid=243449263 deleting the AfD template], which I noted in the edit summary: at that point, no AfD had been filed.  (I did indeed click the red link that time, there was nothing there.)  If you want more detail, read [[User_talk:Whatever404#AfD_filing_method|this]] user talk discussion.  [[User:Whatever404|Whatever404]] ([[User talk:Whatever404|talk]]) 12:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

===About AfD red links===
I've just seen a red AfD link myself for [[Call_Me_Crazy]]. When I clicked it, it did work, it just took me directly to editing the AfD page, even though the AfD page is not empty, i.e. the link is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Call_Me_Crazy&action=edit&redlink=1]. I can imagine see how this may deter someone from participating in AfD. But it's a software glitch in MediaWiki, and there's no problem on how the AfD was filed. I suspect the link will become blue by itself. Is this a known bug? [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 01:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:A [[WP:NULL|null edit]] will turn the link blue. I've seen this several times recently, and from what I understand, it is caused by the page being cached before the AfD is actually created. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 03:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::Is there a way to make it so that the link will not be red, when it ought to be blue?  Is there some way to make the page re-cache upon filing the AfD?  [[User:Whatever404|Whatever404]] ([[User talk:Whatever404|talk]]) 04:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::: As far as I can tell, this bug is easily triggered by [[WP:Twinkle]] because it does three edits (article, AfD page, AfD list) in quick succession or possibly even out of order. It may be possible to avoid the bug by having Twinkle pause a bit more after each edit. Fixing this issue reliably will require some experimentation. In the mean time, the AfD template could be adjusted to say "(click even if this link is red)" after the AfD link in the template since a red AfD link works, except it takes you to the AfD directly in editing mode. Someone with admin rights would have to make this (hopefully temporary) adjustment to the template. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 04:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::: Just an update for the [[Call_Me_Crazy]] example: the link is now blue for me. No edits have been made to the article in the mean time. So, just as I suspected, the cache problem solves itself after a little while. [[User:VasileGaburici|VG]] [[User_talk:VasileGaburici|&#x260E;]] 04:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Actually, I made a null edit, as I referenced above. You simply open the edit page and click submit, without changing anything. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 14:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::If you implement the header clock in your Preferences/Gadgets you can do purges much more easily - clicking on the clock does a purge.&nbsp;–&nbsp;[[User:Ukexpat|ukexpat]] ([[User talk:Ukexpat|talk]]) 14:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Good work, VG, on identifying both short-term and long-term approaches to this issue.  I think the adjustment you suggested for the template should be made.  [[User:Whatever404|Whatever404]] ([[User talk:Whatever404|talk]]) 04:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Just a drive-by comment: many templates have this problem; I recently posted an article to FAC, and the template on the talk page notifying users of the FAC discussion page was a redlink for at least a few hours until the cache reset itself. [[User:Parsecboy|Parsecboy]] ([[User talk:Parsecboy|talk]]) 13:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::I think it's actually more an issue with Twinkle than the template code; more importantly, I think that papering over the isue in the template code will just lead to more malformed AfDs (e.g., the original tagger forgets to complete the process, and some inexperienced user comes along and posts something random because the template told him to) instead of blank or unadvertised AfDs, rather than fewer problem overall. The issue is that creating transcluded pages the way Twinkle does it (very fast and out of order) can always result in a stale red link, because there's no way for a user-side program to control the way the server caches are updated. The acutal solution is that AfD automation scripts should finish their work by using <tt>action=purge</tt> on the affected article, after all the other steps have been done. Better yet, they could delay about a minute and purge then. That should guarantee, at least as far as it can be guaranteed, that the link will go blue. Of course, you could add a "check the page in case it already exists" warning on top of this, but I don't think it's necessary if the original problem is handled. <span  style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 20:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
== More copyvio by [[User:LamyQ]] ==

Since our last report here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive479#Repeated_copyright_violations_by_LamyQ], {{user|LamyQ}} has continued to upload copyrighted images, the latest being {{li|ESPANOLA PLAZA.jpg}} on 2008-10-01 and {{li|EspanolaValleyVolleyball.jpg}} on 2008-10-03. Is a block in order? Thanks. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 03:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
:There is now a sockpuppetry case against him too, see [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/PoliticianTexas (2nd)]]. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 00:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
::Relisting...  <span style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 8pt;">[[User:x42bn6|<b>x42bn6</b>]] <span style="font-size: 7pt;">[[User talk:x42bn6|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/x42bn6|Mess]]</span></span> 13:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, this user is at the very least a PoliticianTexas meatpuppet.  Uploading the exact same images as an indefblocked user?  The chances of that happening are only slightly better than finding a needle in a haystack.  Even without this to consider, this user clearly KNOWS about our upload policies--I counted at least three good uploads in his log.  Blocked indefinitely. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 13:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

===Community ban for PoliticianTexas?===
Now that I think of it, is it safe to consider PoliticianTexas banned?  This user has 21 confirmed socks and two more suspected socks.  Sorry, but that's just too much disruption in a short period of time. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 13:57, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:Some background: [[User:DoriSmith|DoriSmith]] has been tracking [[User:PoliticianTexas|PoliticianTexas]] since about July 2008, see [[User talk:DoriSmith/PoliticianTexas]]. Dori and I have been collaborating since late August 2008 on tracking down his image copyright violations , see [[User talk:DoriSmith/PolTXimgs]].
:The image search is a losing battle, because it takes him only minutes to find and upload a new image and it takes us hours or days to track down its source so it can be speedy-deleted. The process is eased somewhat because he keeps uploading a lot of same images (after we have caused them to be deleted) and we keep good records (see [[User talk:DoriSmith/PolTXimgs]]).
:The sock puppet case-building is also a losing battle. As soon as one of his socks is blocked, he creates another one and starts uploading again. 
:Most of his disruption is due to this copyright-violating activity. His edits are so-so and mostly concern minutiae such as adding tables of elected officials or updating the standings of his favorite high school athletic teams. If he stuck to editing text he probably would not attract anyone's attention. 
:Dori and I don't see any good solutions to the [[User:PoliticianTexas|PoliticianTexas]] problem. We hope that he will get discouraged and go away but so far this hasn't happened. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 16:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
::(I think WP:CU are going to start hating me...)Is there an underlying ip or small range that can be hardblocked, or are they dynamic/wideranging? Perhaps a [[WP:Request for checkuser]] may find that he could be stopped from creating new accounts. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 19:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I like the idea of a permanent community ban, although I'm not sure what that would do to change the current dynamic.

:::As part of an [[WP:RFCU|RFCU]], I [[WP:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/PoliticianTexas#PoliticianTexas|asked about an IP range block]] a few months ago, and I was told then that it wasn't possible. In the last month alone, he's used:
::::* {{user13|71.30.144.116}}
::::* {{user13|71.30.147.211}} &larr;used 8 Oct
::::* {{user13|71.30.148.190}}
::::* {{user13|71.30.150.198}}
::::* {{user13|75.88.233.90}}
::::* {{user13|75.88.235.6}} &larr;used 6 Oct
::::* {{user13|75.88.239.68}}
::::* {{user13|76.26.108.145}}
::::* {{user13|164.64.135.194}}
::::* {{user13|207.155.116.232}} &larr;used 5 Oct
::::* {{user13|216.135.172.188}}
::::* {{user13|216.243.118.166}}
:::Sadly, it appears that it would take blocking all of [http://www.k12espanola.org k12espanola.org] and [http://www.windstream.net windstream.net]—and I'm okay with that, but I doubt many others would be. 
::: And while I hate to correct Uncia, I just looked it up, and I've been keeping an eye on this user since May, off and on. Personally, I'd like to get back to (gasp!) editing an encyclopedia. [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 03:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::What a community ban would do is enable block-on-sight of all socks and revert/delete-on-sight of all contributions.  It would also allow for unlimited checkuser requests.  And based on his history, he's going to be back--this will just make it easier for us to deal with him.  I've become more inclined toward [[WP:RBI|"revert, block, ignore,"]] but since we're talking about copyvios here ... [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 12:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::That sounds good to me. What's the process, outside a few people here saying, "yeah, that would be a good idea."? [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 20:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::[Note: I modified the above list of IPs to show that he's still actively editing/vandalizing, just with varying anon IPs.] [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 04:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::[Ditto. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 03:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)]]
* Support ban. Definitely. I have some experience with this sockpuppeteer; no redeeming value. [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 05:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
* I support a ban as per [[Wikipedia:Banning policy]] and, as needed, the use of {{tl|Db-g5}} as per [[WP:CSD#G5]]: created/uploaded by banned user while banned. — [[User:Athaenara|Athaenara]] [[User talk:Athaenara| ✉ ]] 23:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*A ban is sounding reasonable. This is not someone who is interested in working with other editors within the bounds that have been set up with regards to copyrights, verifiability, etc. Much effort of many editors is being wasted in dealing with this, and if a ban would make it easier, that would be good. [[User:Aleta|<b style="color:#990066;">'''Aleta'''</b>]] [[User_Talk:Aleta|<sup style="color:#0095B6;"><small>'''Sing'''</small></sup>]] 15:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*Support, IDK a-lot about this user but just a glance at the situation would tell you that a [[WP:BAN|ban]] would be the best for everybody. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 15:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*Support: I agree with SteelersFan. I don't know this user, but looking at the situation, I believe a ban would be a good idea at this point. --([[User:GSK|GameShowKid]])--([[User_talk:GSK|talk]])--([[Special:Contributions/GSK|evidence]])-- 19:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

===Created another new account===
If you look at the contributions and history, it's clear that (as expected) he's created a new account: he's now editing as  {{user13|DeLaCueva}}. As I asked a couple of days ago, what's the process to get him banned? And after that, what's the process from then on--go to RFCU, which takes a few days, and then clean up after him again every time? Or can [[user:Uncia|Uncia]] and I just come here and report his new accounts and get him shut down asap? [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 06:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It's actually simple to enact a community ban--determine whether there's a strong enough consensus that this user has exhausted the community's patience.  When that happens, any socks he makes can be blocked on sight, and any and all contribs he makes can be deleted and reverted on sight.  Most of his socks (or in LamyQ's case, meatpuppets) are relatively easy to spot (though I'm not quite certain about DeLaCueva), so reporting them either here or at [[WP:AIV]] should be the fastest way to whack him. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 12:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::It's entirely possible [[User:DeLaCueva|DeLaCueva]] isn't one of his socks--but any time someone comes on WP and in their first three hours (1) creates an article about an Espanola school, (2) edits three pages to point to the new article, (3) reverts a fourth article (twice) to go back to a previous sock's edits, (4) removes SP tags from his user talk page, and (5) clearly doesn't know/care about either [[WP:Edit summary|Edit summary]] or [[WP:Preview|Preview]], I'll tend to guess that it's another PolTx sock. Not to mention that those two reversions would have put him over 3RR if he'd done them using the IP he started with that evening. [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 22:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:In this thread there are four supporters of a ban ([[User:DoriSmith|DoriSmith]], [[User:Uncia|Uncia]], [[User:Tanthalas39|Tanthalas39]], [[User:Athaenara|Athaenara]]) and no opponents. Is it consensus yet?--[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 12:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::Ban now also supported in this thread by [[User:Aleta|Aleta]] and [[User:Steelerfan-94|Steelerfan-94]]; total 6 in favor and 0 opposed. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 19:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Including me, make that seven, if you want to count an impartial observer of this ANI page, after reviewing the history. I think it's a shame that IP range blocks aren't possible. It's also a shame that there isn't an article or upload protection level between "semi-protect" and "full-protect" that prevents uploading and editing by users with less than some threshold of productive mainspace edit history. =[[User talk:Axlq|Axlq]] 19:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::With the addition of [[User:GSK|GameShowKid]], [[User:Axlq|Axlq]], and [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy96]], I count it as 9-0. [[User:DoriSmith|Dori]] ([[User talk:DoriSmith|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/DoriSmith|Contribs]]) 22:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I have filed a sockpuppetry case against [[User:DeLaCueva|DeLaCueva]] and [[Special:Contributions/71.30.147.211|71.30.147.211]], see [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/PoliticianTexas (3rd)]]. --[[User:Uncia|Uncia]] ([[User talk:Uncia|talk]]) 00:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Veggiegirl]] ==

{{user|Veggiegirl}}
This has persistently continued to add unsourced, contentious BLP violations into [[Daisy Lowe]], despite the fact that I have explained why the content is inappropriate and defamatory, and past their final warning. Rather than block this user myself (though [[WP:BLOCKING#Disputes|allowable]]), I'd prefer someone uninvolved just check over the situation. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:#FF0066;">Seraphim&hearts;</span>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:black;">Whipp</span>]] 11:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:Which part of her edit is a BLP vio? Looks like there's a POV/OR thing about her first becoming famous for the paternity test, but isn't the rest already substantiated in the article? [[User:ThuranX|ThuranX]] ([[User talk:ThuranX|talk]]) 11:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::Did you read the talk page? "She ''first'' became well known to the media in 2008 ''for her brief relationship with Producer [[Mark Ronson]]''". That assertion is defamatory (trying to assert someone is only famous because of their partner), unsourced and untrue. This editor has asserted they dislike the subject of the article and is trying to defame them as a result. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:#FF0066;">Seraphim&hearts;</span>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:black;">Whipp</span>]] 11:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::It may be unsourced, but there's no way it's defamatory if it's '''''true'''''.  If she was unknown to the media, then had a brief relationship with Ronson, which brought her to the attention of the media, then the statement is true and doesn't defame her in the least.  People are often thrust into the limelight because of their associations, whether it's a lover or spouse or celebrity business partner or the big shot politician you hit with your car.  Bottom line is, if the statement is true, it ain't defamatory. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 12:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Yes, but the whole point is that it isn't true. She was the subject of a BBC documentary long before she ever met Mark Ronson (not that I need to prove it as untrue...). [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:#FF0066;">Seraphim&hearts;</span>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:black;">Whipp</span>]] 12:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::This is a content dispute.  At the mo her past relationship with MR isn't mentioned in the article at all that I can see, so this version isn't 'true' either.  I think that Veggie will come to a compromise in time, if it's genuinely true that this lady has bee in magazines etc prior to going out with MR, as the article currently says.  Both her relationship with MR and the documentary seem to have happened in 2008, by the way.:) [[User:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b>]] [[User talk:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b>]] 12:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::P.S.  Have you tried posting to [[WP:BLPN]]? [[User:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b>]] [[User talk:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b>]] 12:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I don't care much for wikipedia at the moment, but I've been checking in to peek at articles on my watchlist and that's it. Cases of BLP problematic material are serious and yes, I will take the strictest ruling of that policy. BLP/N is for "cases where outside persons are repeatedly adding problematic material over a ''longer period of time''." Whatever you people want to do is fine. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:#FF0066;">Seraphim&hearts;</span>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:black;">Whipp</span>]] 12:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::I've taken a pass at the article, and have restored the material in what I think is a non-contentious way -- not in the lede, but in the part that already mentions her working with Ronson. Also, it's not characterized as her first coming to the media's attention, just that she had a brief romantic relationship with him. I did a bunch of other clean-ups as well. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 12:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::You did an awesome job. Would you mind watchlisting it? I think it's time for me to take a break. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:#FF0066;">Seraphim&hearts;</span>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<span style="color:black;">Whipp</span>]] 12:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::I have done so. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 12:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::::Much appreciated. [[User:Seraphim Whipp|<font color="333399">Seraphim&hearts;</font>]][[User_talk:Seraphim Whipp|<font color="black">Whipp</font>]] 13:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::As someone resonably regular at BLP/N, I can say whatever the intention of the noticeboard it's often used when a BLP issue arises and outside comment or help is needed to resolve a dispute. I would personally recommend you take a BLP issue to BLP/N before the AN/I unless you need someone to be blocked. P.S. Perhaps you missed this part "This noticeboard is for reporting and discussing Biographies of living people policy issues which require outside intervention. These may include disputes with tendentious editors" [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 18:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Actually in some jurisdictions (albeit not England) truth alone is not sufficient to prevent [[defamation]]. Be that as it may, whether the comment was defamatory should not be our primary concern [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 18:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
== Edit war on pages of [[Indian religions]] by User Nexxt 1 ==

{{User|Nexxt 1}} has been continuously indulging in edit war with everyone. He has repeatedly flouted the 3RR rule on the pages of [[Indian Religions]]. He is using dubious sources – medical books, Geography books, communications books etc – to  make tall claims on religion and history. Since last few hours he has reverted myself, [[User:Mitsube]] and [[User:Jeff G.]] as per the following diffs and his contribution history. 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_religions&diff=243366365&oldid=243355043]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_religions&diff=243332596&oldid=243331434]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_religions&diff=243331000&oldid=243131127]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indian_religions&diff=242994008&oldid=242937156]
--[[User:Anishshah19|Anish]] ([[User talk:Anishshah19|talk]]) 09:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:I suggest reporting the 3RR violation to the appropriate noticeboard, i.e. [[WP:AN3]]. Other than that, I suggest [[WP:DR|dispute resolution]] to be tried; they seem to have stopped reverting for now which means a block would be counterproductive. '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 10:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::Nexxt1 is back to his disruptive behaviour. I have reverted Nexxt 1’s edit as he is using dubious sources like medical and geography books as references for Indian religions. He is not bothering to reply or enter into debate on his sources on talk pages but is making wild accuations that [[User:Mitsube]] is my sock which is a serious allegation.--[[User:Anishshah19|Anish]] ([[User talk:Anishshah19|talk]]) 19:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[[User:Nexxt 1|Nexxt 1 ]] blocked 48 hours for 3RR. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 19:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

::Thanks but the way user {{User|Angle reflection}} has taken over from Nexxt 1 after being blocked is a suspect. {{User|Angle reflection}} has already started canvassing with other editors for a full-fledged edit war. He is insisting on using same dubious references of medical and geography books to make historical claims on Indian religions page. Please check out this user also. As of now I have reverted his edits.--[[User:Anishshah19|Anish]] ([[User talk:Anishshah19|talk]]) 04:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[[User:Dougweller]] has full protected [[Indian religions]] for three days, which settles things down temporarily. But consider these two accounts:
::::*{{userlinks|Angle reflection}}
::::*{{userlinks|Nexxt 1}}
:::They may be the same user. (One account was created August 20, 2007 and the other on August 24, 2007, plus the name 'Nexxt 1' is suggestive). Canvassing for reverts may be blockable as edit warring. I'll notify Angle reflection that he is being discussed here. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 13:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:I request Check user for Angle reflection and Nexxt 1 to verify sock puppetry. --[[User:Anishshah19|Anish]] ([[User talk:Anishshah19|talk]]) 05:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::I read the instructions at [[WP:RFCU]], and there is no code letter that directly covers a case like this. They suggest opening a [[WP:SSP]] instead. In lieu of a full SSP filing, and since the evidence is already here in this section, per [[WP:QUACK]] I'm blocking [[User_talk:Angle reflection|Angle reflection]] three months as a sock of [[User_talk:Nexxt 1|Nexxt 1]], and extending [[User_talk:Nexxt 1|Nexxt 1]]'s block to two weeks for block evasion and abuse of multiple accounts. Any review of this action is of course welcome. Angle reflection did not respond to the offer to present his case here, and has gone back to reverting at [[Indian religions]]. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 05:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::{{Confirmed}} per CU. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User talk:YellowMonkey#Straw_poll_for_selecting_photos_of_Australia_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics|<span style="color:#FA8605;">click here to choose Australia's next top model</span>]]'') 03:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Thanks. The block of [[User_talk:Angle reflection|Angle reflection]] has been extended to indefinite based on the CU confirmation. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 03:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== On matters of Turkey and Kosovo, et al ==

Series of skirmishes and discussions, beginning with [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk&diff=243655110&oldid=243626066], and including [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_European_countries_by_population&diff=prev&oldid=243661997], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_European_countries_by_population]. Seems to be strong POV involved, as well as multiple IPs, coming from same source. Quieting down now, but despite this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:41.245.136.129] and similar accusations, I have little knowledge of the contentious areas and no inherent POV--just noticed unilateral edits which appeared to be vandalism. Input would be appreciated. Thanks, [[User:JNW|JNW]] ([[User talk:JNW|talk]]) 15:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As you already know, and acknowledged, this is a hub with multiple IPs that are randomly assigned amongst several users. I have only posted as one person, but have had 2 separate IPs appear without any doing of my own. You have already accepted that, yet now use it as "Evidence"? 

I voted to INCLUDE Turkey in the "List of European countries by population" yet questioned the inclusion of Kosovo, as there is no verifiability of it being a uniformly recognized country(like Turkey is). Is that "vandalism"? You have also yet to respond to why you chose to INCLUDE Kosovo without first beginning a discussion.

The Ataturk article is clearly POV and reads like a fansite. I admit that my revisions strayed into anti-Ataturk POV, but as the article stands now, it is most certainly NOT NPOV. When questioned on this subject, the person who started this avoided the issue at hand and merely made aggressive postings and warnings. As things stand now, I have started a "POV" discussion on the Ataturk discussion page, and started a "Kosovo" section on the European countries by population page. The person here has posted replies on both discussion pages without actually addressing the issues at hand. Somebody else has also attempted to derail/hijack the Kosovo discussion. [[Special:Contributions/41.245.136.129|41.245.136.129]] ([[User talk:41.245.136.129|talk]]) 15:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::The use of multiple IPs, even if done innocently, gives the appearance of several users supporting a view, that's why it is worth mention. As for Kosovo: it was already included in the list; my rationale for keep, pending further discussion, was explained. There is adequate international recognition to prevent a user from unilaterally deciding to delete it. The warnings re: Ataturk were appropriate; taken together, these edits appeared to constitute strong POV when first encountered, and merited warnings. If this can lead to a constructive re-addressing of the Ataturk article, with sourced content, it is welcome. [[User:JNW|JNW]] ([[User talk:JNW|talk]]) 16:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::I have removed a "disputed" tag that he added to [[List_of_European_countries_by_population]]. If we had to add a disputed tag to every Balkan article where someone disagrees with the consensus on wikipedia.....well... there would be no un-tagged article. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 19:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you link/verify that your stance is indeed the consensus on wikipedia? I have added something to this effect on the relevant talk page? Certainly wikipedia should follow official international recognition, eg th UN? If Kosovo is listed as a European country, then why not North Cyprus, Abkhazia etc? Please do not paint me as a vandal or troll. I am merely questioning why this is wikipedia "consensus", if indeed it is? [[Special:Contributions/41.245.136.129|41.245.136.129]] ([[User talk:41.245.136.129|talk]]) 08:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:My apologies, you had raised valid concerns that I had failed to notice. I have explained my arguments [[Talk:List_of_European_countries_by_population#KOSOVO.3F.21.21.21|on the talk page]]. For consensus, you can check, for example, the talk page of [[WP:MOSKOS]]. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 03:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== User:Renamed user 19 ==

{{User|Renamed user 19}}

User was blocked for having the name [[User:B988a4299d07c0f61fbc8378965438f0]], account got renamed, no reason to remain blocked. Plain and simple. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 21:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:Wasn't there a thread where this editor was also caught using alternate accounts deceptively?  Also, wasn't this editor about to be RFC'd/Project space banned when they were renamed?  If they are not requesting unblock, I see no reason to go unblock them.  '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 21:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::Deceptively, I don't think so, but yes he did try to use another account. Maybe because the first one was getting a lot of off-wiki harassment, call me crazy if that seems reasonable.  To your second point, no, they were not about to be project space banned, not even close. There are users who wanted to file an RfC, but nothing close to a ban, and being subject to an RfC doesn't make someone a bad editor.

::Thirdly, they ''did'' request an unblock to fix the name change, but got turned down, which is something I would have challenged if it were not for someone doing the rename anyways. So he's renamed, and that's the ONLY reason he was blocked. What's the problem here? I can understand if you don't like him, but we don't block people because we like them or not. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 21:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Clarify: Are we talking about {{user|Le_Grand_Roi_des_Citrouilles}} who renamed quite a few times here? [[User:D.M.N.|D.M.N.]] ([[User talk:D.M.N.|talk]]) 21:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:This [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles]] seems to indicate differently on the alternate account usage. CUs generally don't confirm a connection unless there is abuse of some sort. '''[[User:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFFF00;background-color: #0000FF;'>MBisanz</span>]]''' <sup>[[User talk:MBisanz|<span style='color: #FFA500;'>talk</span>]]</sup> 21:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::[[User:Elisabeth Rogan]] was the only one after his RTV. The only other one was from a year ago. No abuse was cited beyond a concern that he might be doing good hand/bad hand. This is why I would like to encourage him to return on his existing account. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 21:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Please, I would like to make it so he feels welcome if he wishes to return (he left because of off-wiki harassment). I give you my word that if he returns that I will keep an eye on him and/or file any kind of user RfC that people might feel is necessary. This is a simple request and it's fully in line with policy, so please will someone just do the unblock. Talking about it is more effort than actually unblocking him, so I don't see what the issue here is. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 21:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::I have no knowledge of user conduct issues in this case, but "Renamed user 19" isn't an appropriate username - it's a generic one for a user that has left the project. If this editor wishes to edit again, they will need to select a different name and I will happily rename them. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 21:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::I'm guessing under [[WP:UN#Similar usernames]]? Fair enough. He did ask to be renamed to [[User:A Nobody]] in his original request, would that be okay? -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 21:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::[[User:A Nobody]] seems like an acceptable username to me, but I'm not sure that would still be the name he'd want were he to start editing again. And indeed, given the harassment issues, he may prefer to start a fresh account. <strong style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User:WJBscribe|WJBscribe]] [[User talk:WJBscribe|(talk)]]</strong> 21:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::I'm unclear on if he is allowed to start fresh with a new account or not. It's a big reason why I wanted him to be unblocked, because it seemed that people objected to him starting fresh. If he is allowed to do so then that will satisfy most of my concerns. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 22:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Whether those accounts are blocked or not is kind of immaterial.  I look at it this way.  If he comes back on a new account and says "I am LGRdC", then it is no big deal.  If he comes back on any of his other accounts and says "I want to be unblocked and edit under X name" then the same thing happens.  Either way it is acceptable for him to return to editing.  It is unacceptable for him to return to editing under a new name with a fresh start.  Period.  Those accounts being blocked or not doesn't really change that. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 22:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::I believe he has every right to start fresh, and if he really is the subject of off wiki harassment then even more so. This is a right given to all editors in good standing, and LGR is no different. I worry about people going after him to "unmask" any new account he might make and then blocking those accounts. I would prefer, for open transparency, that he continue to use his main account if he wishes to come back, but that is not a requirement. <s>It would also be easier than dealing with people who believe like you do.</s> -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 01:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::Just like you and me, he only has the right to leave.  I don't wish him any ill will.  I don't want him to be harassed.  But I don't want him to spend months and years testing the patience of the community only to start fresh without any possibility of redress.  The reasoning should be obvious for the purposes of future deterrence.  [[WP:RTV]] says, in bold: "'''the "right to vanish" is not a "right to a fresh start" under a new identity.'''"  I don't want to unmask him.  No one here does.  but frankly the cat is out of the bag.  If he is telling the truth then whoever is harassing him already knows details about him that are connected to his previous account.  Anyone with a reasonable level of deductive skill can tell (even without his IP edits) where he lives and what his interests are.  The claim that he ''needs'' to be able to edit here AND be renamed in order to avoid harassment is not supported by the facts.  And for my own aggrandizement, what do you mean by "It would also be easier than dealing with people who believe like you do"?  What do I believe?  Why do I need to be "dealt with"? [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 02:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::All editors have a right to edit anonymously, and even to start fresh if they are in good standing, which I feel he was even if he has annoyed some editors. I guess it is debatable regarding if he is in good standing or not, but even then we've set up the situation to where a number of trusted admins would know about the connection between the new and old account, for the sake of allowing someone to start fresh. I feel he only now has that right since he's no longer "vanished", what with having his talk page undeleted and there being a notice on his old user page.

:::::::::::My apologies about that last comment (''"It would be easier than dealing.."''). -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 03:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::::::Naw, It's my fault for getting my hackles up.  I respect his right to edit anonymously, but we have a community here.  We can't operate that community if there is no memory of actions.  Let me be clear (since I think I might have muddled it).  I welcome his return, but I insist that he accept some community feedback about his previous account and the actions regarding and immediately following his vanishing.  If he never wants to return, that is his choice.  I don't make a habit of mentioning his old user name and I expect that others will not either.  I don't think that he is welcome to start a new account with a clean slate.  Even if he were welcome to do so, Durova made a good point at one of the previous AN/I threads about him: he has been here long enough that people "know" what his edits look like.  If he starts a new account completely divorced from the old one, it will eventually be found (when he returns to XfD).  That isn't a "we are going to hound you" kind of statement.  It is just a matter of fact that people have distinctive habits and that others tend to remember those habits.  Honestly I think that the best thing for him (should he want to come back) is to undergo a rename and accept some feedback in the form of an RfC for previous actions.  If he returns anonymously it will only upset people more. [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 04:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Alert ==

{{user|Timmy Appo}} left me a message on my talk page clamoring to desysop Alison. Besides the fact that I can't do that anyway, I suspect the user may be a sock of {{IPuser|76.247.222.101}} and {{user|TougHHead}}. Can we get a check on this? '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:black;">bibliomaniac</span>]][[User talk:Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:red;">1</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bibliomaniac15|<span style="color:blue;">5</span>]]''''' 23:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Considering [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Removing_administrator_rights&diff=prev&oldid=244012061 this edit], I don't think there's any doubt of it.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 02:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:: {{confirmed}} - and {{IPblock}} - big surprise all round :) He's been going around vandalizing various other wikis, too - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 02:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Tony Feld]] ==

{{user|Tony Feld}} - Anyone feel like looking into this user's contributions? Doesn't exactly look like a case for AIV, but there's very little evidence that this person is here to make a positive impact. Some edits are OK, some are flat out [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ver%C3%A3o_Vermelho&diff=prev&oldid=243666642 vandalism], others still are [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Macy&diff=prev&oldid=243923616 somewhat harassing]. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 22:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think it's the user's first account, looking at the history of pages the user has edited, I found several accounts, most already indef blocked, that had edited some of the same articles, added similar nonsense to user talk pages, and vandalised in similar ways.  For example this diff:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:BazookaJoe&diff=next&oldid=65649401] by {{User|Mariusz Zielinski}} and diffs such as this:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HalfShadow&diff=prev&oldid=234493339] by {{User|Tony Feld}} (for which the user was blocked for 24 hours). These are the other accounts that may be related (listed in the order that they were created):
*{{User|Mr. Conrad}}
*{{User|Mariusz Zielinski}}
*{{User|Mariusz Paul Zielinski}}
*{{User|Bill Conrad}}
*{{User|Brian Barbera}}
*{{User|Squidward Tentacles}}
*{{User|Flatts}}
*{{User|Mojo King Bee}}
*{{User|Flatts the Flounder}}
*{{User|Uncle Dee}}
*{{User|Bubble Bass}}
*{{User|Flatts Flounder}}
*{{User|Aloysius Snuffleupagus}}
*{{User|Ben9201996}}
*{{User|Doy-doy people}}
*{{User|Jerry Stamm}}
*{{User|Jim10271949}}
I think at least some, and maybe all of these accounts, may be the same user.  There is also a "Tony Feld" account [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/UDWiki:Administration/Vandal_Banning/Archive/2008_05#User:Tony_Feld indef blocked/banned] on another wiki, which was created before the account on Wikipedia and has the same user page. —[[User talk:Snigbrook|Snigbrook]] 01:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Looks like a [[WP:RFCU|checkuser request]] waiting to happen. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 04:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
You just reminded me. I really am Mr. Conrad, the grouchy old man. --[[User:Tony Feld|Tony Feld]] ([[User talk:Tony Feld|talk]]) 13:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Block requested ==

;Background
A few months ago, {{user|Jsn9333}} was blocked twice due to his disruption of the [[Fox News Channel]] article (including a block for using sock/meatpuppets in an attempt to influence consensus). A topic ban was proposed by {{user|R. Baley}} and put in place following a discussion on this noticeboard (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=207669298#Proposed_short_term_remedy WP:AN/I#Proposed short term remedy]). Jsn9333 ceased editing under his account a few days later, following a block for violating the terms of his topic ban. 

;Today's issue
On September 15, a couple IPs ([[Special:Contributions/98.169.210.188|98.169.210.188]] & [[Special:Contributions/65.222.174.121|65.222.174.121]]) from the same geographic area (resolve within 11 miles of each other) showed up pushing the same agenda as Jsn9333 and making identical edits to the FNC article.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=prev&oldid=238627594] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=238656266&oldid=238656054] The IPs confirmed my suspicion of sockpuppetry when they began referring to me as "autoburn", a name only one other editor in my 2+ years here has ever called me (see [[User_talk:Jsn9333#FNC]]). The IPs are no doubt the same editor, have attempted to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Fox_News_Channel&diff=prev&oldid=243742817 support] themselves on the talk page, and are very likely Jsn9333 (who was obsessed with the references within the FNC article). Per the principles of [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tango]], I'm requesting a sock-block for both IPs (appear to be home vs work) rather than placing it myself (since I'm no doubt involved, but these IPs are [[WP:DUCK|quacking]] loudly). Best, - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 23:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

::Helpful summary of the original situation from administrator R.Bailey can be found [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=208532109 here].  //[[USER:Blaxthos|Blaxthos]] <small>( [[User Talk:Blaxthos|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Blaxthos|c]] )</small> 23:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:{{user|98.169.210.188}} has now violated the 3RR, which he was blocked for previously.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244004346&oldid=243777753 Edit]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244008742&oldid=244008223 revert 1], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244015877&oldid=244013875 revert 2], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244018642&oldid=244016917 revert 3], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244029183&oldid=244016917 revert 4], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fox_News_Channel&diff=244035548&oldid=244034753 revert 5]. Block would be appreciated. - [[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 02:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::I agree with AuburnPilot (very tempted to call him Autoburn, because it sounds cooler) that the IPs are operated by the same person, and that this is a reappearance of Jsn9333. I have therefore blocked both IPs indefinitely; from the WHOIS links on the bottom of their contrib pages, both IPs appear to be non-portable and therefore safe to block for an undefined period. If I am misunderstanding the nature of these IP addresses, please change the block length to something that won't cause undue collateral damage. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 03:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:::Actually, non-portable does not mean single user.  They could, for example, be logging in via Wi-Fi at various Star Bucks or using a bunch of public computers in a library.  Indefinite IP blocks should be reserved for situations with much more evidence than this of their single-user nature; indeed I can't think of many reasons for an indef IP block except for open proxies.  This block should be shortend (maybe a week or so).  Perhaps, if he moves a LOT within a range, we could institute a range block of some sort... --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 04:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Ok, thanks, I have changed the blocks to 1 week on both IPs. We'll have to keep an eye out to see if this guy returns. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 11:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Yet another [[User:Hdayejr|Hdayejr]] sock ==

Requesting assistance, multiply banned user [[User:Hdayejr|Hdayejr]], who comes and vandalizes my talk page about every other day (at least until it was semi-protected) is back again as {{user|71.72.160.96}}. His first edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dayewalker&diff=prev&oldid=244017755] was to put a ED link on my page (I didn't click on it), since then he's only been reverting my edits [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHIO-TV&diff=prev&oldid=244050018] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHIO-TV&diff=prev&oldid=244050278] and making strange statements [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:71.72.160.96&diff=prev&oldid=244050632]. Can an admin please block the sock, please. Thanks in advance. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 02:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:The IP also removed this paragraph from this page.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 02:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yep, it's him all right. Here's the diff of the report removal. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=244051867] [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 02:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::That particular IP address will be taking a short break. I make no promises of reduced disruption, mind you.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 02:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That was intelligent: 'Let's go where ''all the admins hang out''. It's a foolproof plan!' [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 02:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::In another act of brilliance, the IP spelled "encyclopedia" wrong. Is the IP dynamic? Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Nope, direct allocation. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
(OD)Yeah, he's about as sharp as a rubber ball. His IP seems to be dynamic, here's a list of [[User_talk:Dayewalker/Sockfile|some of his socks]] I was keeping until it became apparent he was just going to hop around. He comes around with poorly spelled vandalism, we RBI, block a few socks, my page gets semi-protected. Eh, it's a living. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 03:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Goodness gracious, does this guy ever give up?  Man, some people need a better hobby, or at least a girlfriend!  This guy has all the symptoms of someone who is in dire need of female attention...  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 03:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::hmmm...  I'd suggest we start the 'Wikipedia Escort Service for the Prevention of Recurrent Vandalism' (WESPeRV), except (a) it's probably illegal, and (b) '''I''' might start vandalizing pages.  ah, well...  {{=)}} <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Ludwigs2|Ludwigs2]] ([[User talk:Ludwigs2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ludwigs2|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
:::The whole point is that having someone else voluntarily handle your genitals generally changes your perspective on the world.  People who get regular doses of poontang don't see this sort of behavior as "fun".  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 04:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Range is pretty consistent, so we know which area he lives in (midwest) and who his ISPs (2) are. When blocking his dynamic IPs, probably good to leave a {{tl|sharedip}} on the talkpage so that users blocked by accident will see and complain - preferably to the ISP abuse desk. --[[User:Alvestrand|Alvestrand]] ([[User talk:Alvestrand|talk]]) 06:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
== IP at Murad Gumen ==

Over at [[Murad Gumen]], there's a situation with IP user {{user|24.67.253.203}} repeatedly removing what appears to be sourced material. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Murad_Gumen&diff=prev&oldid=244193074] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Murad_Gumen&diff=prev&oldid=244199829] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Murad_Gumen&diff=prev&oldid=243220175]

This seems to go back a while. With this edit [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Murad_Gumen&diff=next&oldid=243226475], he appears to be committed to not allowing discussion on the matter.

On the talk page, it seems that previous discussion and consensus appears to warrant it staying on the page, but since this is a [[WP:BLP]] matter, I thought I'd bring it here for a quick look-see from an admin. Thanks in advance. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 19:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Defamatory edit summaries ==

{{resolved|by rangeblock.  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 21:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)}}
An anonymous editor using the IP [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.127.79.132 84.127.79.132] has made a series of empty edits, apparently in order to make defamatory claims about another editor in the edit summaries. Although this vandal has been blocked, the blank edits and summaries remain. Could an admin please remove these totally? [[User:RolandR|RolandR]] ([[User talk:RolandR|talk]]) 20:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. All of these are really disgusting, venomous, and potentially libelous personal attacks. I think they all should be deleted also. — [[User:Becksguy|Becksguy]] ([[User talk:Becksguy|talk]]) 21:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:See [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Child_porn]]; it appears to be something of a campaign. [[User:LessHeard vanU|LessHeard vanU]] ([[User talk:LessHeard vanU|talk]]) 21:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Great, all the NPA edit summaries by this IP (that said the same thing) have been deleted. Thanks much. — [[User:Becksguy|Becksguy]] ([[User talk:Becksguy|talk]]) 21:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[Masonic conspiracy theories]] ==

{{resolved|no issue  - obvious sock [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 01:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Why was the article protected when all the IP [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Masonic_conspiracy_theories&diff=243978913&oldid=243977665 was doing] was rephrase a sentence from bullshit to what the source actually says? The same goes for [[Blood libel against Jews|this article]], which was protected because the IP was putting a 'citation needed' template next to an unsourced allegation that has been disputed for the last 2000 years, as described in the article itself. The article itself, which starts off by describing the practice as a false allegation, does not even tell why the allegations are false. If it is indeed ''libel'', then no one would mind proving reliable references that would refute a belief that has been held for two millenniums in many parts of the world. And please don't avoid explaining why this travesty is occurring by dismissing this as anti-Semitism. [[User:Ablee|Ablee]] ([[User talk:Ablee|talk]])  <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 00:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Disruption. [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 01:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Baldness]] article ==

{{resolved|Templated warnings have been explained to the user, other editors has since been identified as sockpuppets. '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 02:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}

{{userlinks|01001}} keeps disrupting (Possibly using IP's as well) the article by remove the current image and infobox which the only reasons given that it's an ''"ugly offensive image[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baldness&diff=244266455&oldid=244266150]"'' and the discussion by the user hasn't been very constructive at [[Talk:Baldness#Either a good looking bald guy goes here or no image]]. Now the user has made a threat to have me banned[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bidgee&diff=prev&oldid=244267862]. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 01:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Non-admin comment: You could try [[WP:MEDCAB]] (or [[WP:MEDCOM]]), or just try to gather talk page consensus.  See also [[WP:DR]].  [[User: Dendodge|'''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#999FFF">Den</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:Gainsboro">dodge</em>''']]|<small>[[User talk:Dendodge|Talk]]</small><sup>[[Special:Contributions/Dendodge|Contribs]]</sup> 01:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Problem is the changes made are not constructive and the discussion on the talk page also hasn't been constructive. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 01:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::YOu made the first threat.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Please also note incivil statement from IP editor on this topic [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bidgee&diff=prev&oldid=244273547 here]. '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 01:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::That was not me.  But it shows someone else tried to contribute constuctively also, and he was teed off.  I read some of the discourse.  What did you do to get him so angry?[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::There is nothing "constructive" about wishing someone a horrible death...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::::Apparently the guy or gal was constructive until he got angry.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::Their only other edit was vandalism of [[Flying Spaghetti Monster]]. Again, there is nothing constructive about wishing the death of another user. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 02:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::And what personal attacks did I make?  I do not appreciate you accusing me of making personal attacks.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::: I'd class [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bidgee&diff=prev&oldid=244267862 this] as a personal attack. '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 01:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::: That was in response to the threat I received.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::urmm [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:01001&diff=244266736&oldid=244256572] template warnings are not threats. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 01:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Whatever, your actions were much harsher than mine.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::What "threat"? Can you show a diff? Bidgee has never edited your talk page outside of templates. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::You threatened to block me.  How is that not a threat?[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 02:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::It's a template  (See:[[Template:Uw-delete3]]). You got warned as you removed a image that isn't copyrighted and the infobox without an consensus. [[User:Bidgee|Bidgee]] ([[User talk:Bidgee|talk]]) 02:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Again, templated warnings are not threats. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 02:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

*It is interesting that you claim not to be the same editor 0100 - A check of the history on this page seems to show some clear sock or meat puppetry going on between this editor and 4 alternate IP's detailed below.  Edit pattern is the same, responses to adjustment are similar.  Can you tell us if any of these IP's are yours?
*{{socklinks|1=81.178.58.73}}
*{{socklinks|1=141.154.59.105}}
*{{socklinks|1=83.85.131.52}}
*{{socklinks|1=98.197.13.104}}
*{{socklinks|1=82.21.96.88}}
*{{socklinks|1=74.14.144.180}}
*{{socklinks|1=71.37.47.143}}
--[[User:VirtualSteve|<strong>VS</strong>]] <sup>[[User_talk:VirtualSteve|talk]]</sup> 01:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The IP is not mine.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Again, can you show us evidence of diffs of threats against you that give you the right to threaten Bidgee with a block? --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

*The editor who was screaming [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:71.189.252.3&curid=19367855&diff=244269675&oldid=244269599] is {{user|Senator Palpatine}} who is, surprise surprise, '''Grawp'''.  It is likely that IP edits after the IP was blocked are from /b/ or are open proxies, since those are common grawp tactics. 01001 appears to be innocent of any behavior not reflected in his actual contribs. [[User talk:Thatcher|Thatcher]] 02:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:I've since applied temporary semiprotection on [[User talk: Bidgee]] in response to the level of IP harassment there. Hope this helps, '''''[[User:Gazimoff|<span style="color:green;">Gazi</span>]][[User talk:Gazimoff|<span style="color:blue;">moff</span>]]''''' 02:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== I was threatened by blocking for less than adequate cause. ==

{{resolved|editor has accepted that template warnings are not threats - will continue with discussion at relevant article --[[User:VirtualSteve|<strong>VS</strong>]] <sup>[[User_talk:VirtualSteve|talk]]</sup> 02:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
I want to know if the users that threatened have administrative status.  If they do, why?  And it should be revoked for abusing it.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Anyone has the right to warn you for actions that are considered disruptive to the project. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::It was done in the matter of a threat.  If it was proper according to the rules here, something is wrong with the rules here.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 01:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::See above, [[Wikipedia:AN/I#Baldness article]]. Looks like you've been saying some ugly things in a content dispute. [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 01:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It was done in the matter of a template, there was no threat. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Excuse me for not knowing the protocol for threatening someone on Wikipedia.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 02:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Your apology is accepted - does that conclude this complaint?--[[User:VirtualSteve|<strong>VS</strong>]] <sup>[[User_talk:VirtualSteve|talk]]</sup> 02:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Fine, but I still want that ugly offensive image taken off the baldness article.[[User:01001|01001]] ([[User talk:01001|talk]]) 02:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::*That is a matter for discussion at the article talk page - you should start that discussion there and await consensus before adjusting.  Can I now close of this complaint as resolved?--[[User:VirtualSteve|<strong>VS</strong>]] <sup>[[User_talk:VirtualSteve|talk]]</sup> 02:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== Possible block evasion ==

I believe the unsigned [[User: 67.140.85.123]] is editing his own page again (after being blocked from doing so, then warned twice), but is now avoiding block by not signing in. This might need a check user request, but I am not exactly certain how to go about doing that.

I suspect that [[User: 67.140.85.123]] is actually [[User: Skinny McGee]], who in turn is the subject of an article about his band.

*  5 Aug. Skinny McGee changes title of CD [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Midnight_Syndicate&diff=229917502&oldid=229072042]

* 6 Aug. Warning given to stop editing Midnight Syndicate [[User_talk:Skinny_McGee#Midnight_Syndicate]]

*  6 Oct. [[User: 67.140.85.123]] changes title of CD [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Midnight_Syndicate&diff=243543393&oldid=240912465]

* Geolocate [http://www.ip2location.com/67.140.85.123] for IP indicates Chardon, Ohio (hometown of band)

* According to [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Skinny_McGee]], Geolocate also points to other IPs in the same 67.140 zone in Chardon, Ohio which are already confirmed to be associated with Skinny McGee and other alias'.  [[User:Ebonyskye|Ebonyskye]] ([[User talk:Ebonyskye|talk]]) 04:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:I'm not sure on how to re-open the case, but in regards to that IP, I suspect that you're right. Unfortunately, the larger block of IPs involved (67.140...) is in a [http://toolserver.org/~chm/blockcalc.php?submitted=permanent&ipbox=67.140.80.142+67.140.82.78+67.140.85.123+67.140.86.158+67.140.88.100+67.140.91.34+67.140.91.39+67.140.91.179+67.140.92.106 dynamic range], so there's nothing we can do there. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 02:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Legal threats against [[User:Daniel J. Leivick]] ==

{{Resolved|1=User indef blocked. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
In this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ADaniel_J._Leivick&diff=244191047&oldid=241719517 Revision] [[User:Paulinacopp]] makes an explicit legal threat against administrator [[User:Daniel J. Leivick]]. I am not sure of this is a regular vandal or a serious threat, but [[Wikipedia:No legal threats]] states that these should be reported to [[WP:ANI]] anyway.[[User:Excirial|<span style="color:#191970;">'''Excirial'''</span>]]<sup> ([[User talk:Excirial|<span style="color:#FF8C00;">Contact me</span>]],[[Special:Contributions/Excirial|<span style="color:#FF8C00;">Contribs</span>]])</sup> 18:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

*User has been indef blocked by [[User:Smashville|Smashville]]. <span style="font-family:Century Schoolbook;">'''[[User:WilliamH|WilliamH]] ([[User talk:WilliamH|talk]])'''</span> 19:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[user:Edwahunn0800]] ==

{{Resolved|1=User indeffed as a sock. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
This account was created two days ago, and has been used for nothing except vandalism and disruption.  The sophistication of the disruption suggests that this is not a new editor. The user has been warned several times already. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 20:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Blocked as a sock of indef-blocked [[User:Edwahunn]].  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 20:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::The user is now abusing the "unblock" template on his talk page. Full protection of the talk page may be necessary. --[[User:PaterMcFly|PaterMcFly]] ([[User talk:PaterMcFly|talk]]) 21:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:He's stopped for now. He's seems to have had a question about his block. [[User:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#00ff00;">  Dloh</span>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<span style="color:#bb00bb;">cierekim </span>]] 02:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Frehley 0]] ==

I really don't know if this is the right place to report this anymore, since the whole concept of reporting a grievence has become so bureaucratic, but this user is a single purpose account that has done nothing but use Wikipedia as a soapbox for some kind of on or offsite campaign against another indefinetly blocked user here. Based on his contributions (posting on me and [[User:The Hybrid]]'s talk page, and the YouTube URL name he is spamming here 'BigBossVersion0' (a previous username on a different wiki if I'm not mistaken) that Frehley 0 is a SPA of [[User:Big Boss 0]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ABig_Boss_0 block log]). Big Boss 0 was indefinitly blocked from Wikipedia in 2007 for not doing anything and bringing petty disputes with the same person he is addressing in the YouTube video to Wikipedia and this is the same thing Frehley 0 is doing, so I kindly ask someone to block the SPA account for obvious reasons. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#FF0000;">M</span><span style="color:#EE0000;">o</span><span style="color:#DD0000;">e</span>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<span style="color:#0000FF;">ε</span>]] 01:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:An indef block for harassment and spamming might be in order. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Noroton]] ==

{{resolved|editor blocked for one week (''reported by [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 02:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)'')}}

Is edit warring for placement of a contentious section on [[Weatherman (organization)]] and is out of control. 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Wikidemon&diff=prev&oldid=244271081]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=244275257]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=244275749]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=244275749]
:His attacks and disruption needed checked please. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 01:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

He seems to be out of control now - lots of cursing and edit wars.  Edit warring insults onto my talk page[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWikidemon&diff=244271081&oldid=244267506][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWikidemon&diff=244272384&oldid=244271218]...threatening to "not let [me] get away with it"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWikidemon&diff=244278003&oldid=244276009]...Just committed [[WP:3RR]] violation at [[Weatherman (organization)]]...[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 02:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
=== Other editors ===
:As opposed to Wikidemon, who's been out of control for weeks and months. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 02:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: Well, what the hell do you two expect? Wikidemon has been misrepresenting the results of the RfC and provoking Noroton for weeks now! Continually harrasing him and other users with [[WP:DTTR|harrasing talk page tags]] and ANI threads about him every couple of days. I think you two (and more) are the ones who could use a not so gentile hand for all the people you have chased off of Wikipedia with your ganging up on them.  [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 02:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks for the input, but it's completely irrelevant here. It's kinda stupid to be edit warring in information that's '''already on the page'''. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Both Noroton and I have asked that a third neutral party certify the RfC and close it after Wikidemo has made his willingness to misrepresent the outcome of it every occasion he has. We are the ones trying to end this without provoking an edit war. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 02:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:CENSEI, how do I explain this to you? The RfC bit on Weatherman was already on the page! '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Then why the fuck are you fighting it? [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 02:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Because you can't put the same content in an article twice! '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== Overturning admin’s action by another admin ==

[[Anti-Christian violence in India]] was protected by an admin due to [[User:Jobxavier]]’s excessive pov pushing and blind reverts. The user (Jobxavier) was also blocked for one week along with article by admin [[User:Akradecki]]. However, another admin [[User:YellowMonkey]] unprotected the article as well as Jobxavier. Is it justifiable? Does the admin YellowMonkey’s new intervention-action invite much vandalism into the article by Jobxavier? I strongly feel that admin [[User:Akradecki]]’s earlier action was sensible and YellowMonkey’s action was unwarrantable at this stage. Any comments? --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:googlean|<font style="color:#1849B5;background:yellow;">''Googlean''</font>]]<small>[[User talk:googlean#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;"> <sup>Results</sup></font>]]</small></span> 03:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:You too have previously been blocked for using sockpuppets as attack-dogs in religious disputes. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User talk:YellowMonkey#Straw_poll_for_selecting_photos_of_Australia_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics|<span style="color:#FA8605;">click here to choose Australia's next top model</span>]]'') 03:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, per YM you have a block history, and if this is really a good-faith concern, how about trying to discuss it with them before running into ANI with it? [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 04:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It appears to me that Akradecki was the original admin who locked and blocked the page. I think that YellowMonkey's action was correct because the blocking admin was reverting the blockee. ''This'' is what should be specifically examined. <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoi]][[User talk:Khoikhoi|khoi]]</span> 04:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Agreed. And given YellowMonkey is a checkuser, I'm inclined to believe his comments about sockpuppetry. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 04:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Akradecki's action would have been acceptable had he not decided engage himself in the edit war with Jobxavier. Just look at the article history: Akradecki reverted Jobxavier, Jobxavier reverted Akradecki, Akradecki reverted back and fully protected the page. It is acceptable to revert someone before fully protecting the page if the previous version is in violation of Wikipedia policies, but in this case, Akradecki was already a party in the edit war when he decided to protect the page. And, protect the page and block the other user? If it's a two person edit war, we only use one of the options, not both. We do not issue blocks as punishment. <span style="background:#E0FFFF;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] </span><sub>([[User talk:Nishkid64|Make articles, not wikidrama]])</sub> 04:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::is in violation of the biographies of living persons policy, only. :) [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 04:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: ( Just curious, whtz is the [[WP:BLP|BLP]] violation here ? -- [[User:Tinucherian|'''<em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu</em>''']] [[User talk:Tinucherian|'''<em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian </em>''']] - 10:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC) )
::::Ah yes, [[WP:PREFER]]. I remember that policy being tossed around after the whole [[Battle of Opis]] editwarring/wheelwarring debacle. <span style="background:#E0FFFF;color:#007FFF;font-family:Georgia;">[[User:Nishkid64|Nishkid64]] </span><sub>([[User talk:Nishkid64|Make articles, not wikidrama]])</sub> 04:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I would like to point that  [[Wikipedia:SOCK#Legitimate_uses_of_alternative_accounts|legitimate]] (Note: ''A user making substantial contributions to an area of interest in Wikipedia might register another account to be used solely in connection with developing that area''.). Many established editors use it when they don’t want to be disclosed their identity in controversial subjects. However, [[WP:RFCU]] is necessary when they misuse it. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:googlean|<font style="color:#1849B5;background:yellow;">''Googlean''</font>]]<small>[[User talk:googlean#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;"> <sup>Results</sup></font>]]</small></span> 04:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Two of your accounts have been on the receiving end of blocks for sockpuppetry. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User talk:YellowMonkey#Straw_poll_for_selecting_photos_of_Australia_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics|<span style="color:#FA8605;">click here to choose Australia's next top model</span>]]'') 04:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I feel this is a kind of retribution that I reported the issue here. Did you mean that I have used sock ids in any of these discussions/articles in recent times? As a check user, could you please elaborate it? What about our policy I quoted above on legitimate id? If using different ids in different areas of subject is against our policy, I strongly feel that our guideline on [[Wikipedia:SOCK#Legitimate_uses_of_alternative_accounts]] has to be re-written. The moment I created my id, I clearly mentioned the disclaimer in the userpage itself. Please elaborate. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:googlean|<font style="color:#1849B5;background:yellow;">''Googlean''</font>]]<small>[[User talk:googlean#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;"> <sup>Results</sup></font>]]</small></span> 05:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::No, I already noted this fact before you reported me, per the discussion at [[WT:INB]]. I'm just pointing out that although you are wuick to complain about other people's editing antics on religious dispute pages, you had a bad hand account for battling it out in a similar way. Two of your previous accounts have been blocked for bad-hand sock battling on religious rioting articles. '''[[User:YellowMonkey|<span style="color:GoldenRod;">YellowMonkey</span>]]'''  (''[[User talk:YellowMonkey#Straw_poll_for_selecting_photos_of_Australia_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics|<span style="color:#FA8605;">click here to choose Australia's next top model</span>]]'') 05:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Users make mistake, when there is be short of knowledge about our policies and guidelines. But I have not used any sock ids ''recently'' in any of these subjects. ''Now days'', I hardly use other ip’s and id’s to make minor edits in WP, not in any of these controversial subjects as I don’t want others to see my identity. Presently I mainly working on Anti-X violence in India related issues, which is the ''recent'' attack against Christians in India --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:googlean|<font style="color:#1849B5;background:yellow;">''Googlean''</font>]]<small>[[User talk:googlean#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;"> <sup>Results</sup></font>]]</small></span> 05:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Admins [[User:Jobxavier]] has been personally attacking me on one of the article WITHOUT provocations. It is about time one Admin took note of this and did something about it. There have been repeated caution to this user, even through mediation by an **independent** Admin. So go easy on Akradecki. [[User:Recordfreenow|Recordfreenow]] ([[User talk:Recordfreenow|talk]]) 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:It is because of [[User:Jobxavier]]’s disruptive edits, I posted this issue here as I did feel that the previous block was ok. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:googlean|<font style="color:#1849B5;background:yellow;">''Googlean''</font>]]<small>[[User talk:googlean#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;"> <sup>Results</sup></font>]]</small></span> 08:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::I defer to Yellowmonkey's judgement, although, as I posted on his talk page, it would have been courteous if he'd at least let me know of what he was doing. It was not my intent to dive into the edit war - policy allows for the reversion prior to blocking by the admin in cases of vandalism, which I believe that this had risen to the level of. I did not, and do not, consider myself one of the warring parties here. However, I also feel strongly that the ongoing POV-pushing behavior as exhibited by Jobxavier is unacceptable, and since Yellowmonkey has lifted his block, maybe he'd like to step in and address Jobxavier's continuing trend of incivility as exhibited [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Akradecki&diff=244117579&oldid=244069243 here]. '''[[User:Akradecki|<span style="color:#62BB32;">AK<span style="color:#006400;">Radecki</span></span>]]'''[[User_talk:Akradecki|<sup style="color:#62BB32;">Speaketh</sup>]] 13:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

== Suggest accuracy in naming ==

:''(I'd propose this on the talk page, but it'd never be read : )''

I'd like a ''general'' requirement that (since this is a page for ''incidents'') that the page of the incident be in the top header. Else, if the post concerns an editor's actions (presumably across several pages), that the editor's name be in the header.

Having statements which may be unfounded accusations (like "harrassment" or "Admin abuse") in the headers, isn't very helpful, and really would seem to be a ''very'' bad idea.

And second, to not have the headers have links (per the mainspace MoS). It's easy enough to:

*<nowiki>[[link to page in question]]</nowiki>
or
*<nowiki>{{user|jc37}}</nowiki>
at the top of the entry.

I'd like this to be added to the top of this page in the comments, directly below the statement about new entries. (Or wherever else is deemed appropriate. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 04:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Having usertemplates (ie. <nowiki>{{user|name}}</nowiki>) stuffs up section linking, so simply [[User:Name]] would be better. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 04:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::I'm suggesting no linking in the section headers at all. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 04:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I like links in section headers. They are convenient. [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 13:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'd prefer a template directly beneath the section header, a la {{tl|main}}, over links in the section headers. Links in the headers just strikes me as sloppy for some reason. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 14:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I do agree templates in section headings are problematic. Links in headings are ueber-bad in content space... probably a matter of personal taste on talk pages, and definitely a harder habit to stamp out regardless. I'd generally support moving templates like {{tl|user}} or {{tl|userlinks}} out of headings, optionally instead placing them first thing ''in the section'' (which I try to do when posting new threads, myself). And yes, more specificity in heading names is nice. &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 18:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Count me as well against links in section headings.  ''Below'' section headings, {{tl|La}} and {{tl|Userlinks}} help much for checking page histories before opening 300kb articles (or user pages with dozens of userboxes).  — [[User:Athaenara|Athaenara]] [[User talk:Athaenara| ✉ ]] 19:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why they simply haven't coded it so {{}} links can't be used in topic headers; they ''work'' but they cause the goto arrow to ''not'' work. I've been fixing them when I see them, but I'd rather not have to at all. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 19:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok I added the text, please feel free to adjust if you can think of a way to make it more concise or clearer. - [[User:Jc37|jc37]] 08:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Child porn ==

This [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/84.127.79.132 IP editor] (note edit summaries) seems to have earned more than a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3A84.127.79.132 48hr] block IMHO. <b>[[User:Jaakobou|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:teal;">Jaakobou</span>]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|<sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk</sup>]]''</b> 19:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:Except that we have no evidence that the person that made those comments will be back at that IP address in 48 hours; indeed since there are NO other edits from that IP before the spate of vandalism, from a person who OBVIOUSLY is an experienced user at Wikipedia would seem to indicate that the person who made those edits will be at a different IP address the next time he shows up.  As such, a longer block will have absolutely no effect.  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 19:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::Measuring on a recent case, where an experienced editor used an IP to edit war, I'm thinking that a (well deserving) longer block will have better chances of outing this abuser. <b>[[User:Jaakobou|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:teal;">Jaakobou</span>]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|<sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk</sup>]]''</b> 20:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It's a dynamic IP and likely to have a different user tomorrow. A longer block at this point would be pointless. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 20:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::An [[WP:ABUSE|abuse report]] would likely be more helpful at this point. Or, just call the ISP directly. <font face="Trebuchet MS">[[User:Nwwaew|Nwwaew]]<small> ([[User_Talk:Nwwaew|Talk Page]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Nwwaew|Contribs]]) ([[Special:Emailuser/Nwwaew|E-mail me]])</small></font> 20:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::Mind the question, but how do we know that this IP is dynamic? <b>[[User:Jaakobou|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:teal;">Jaakobou</span>]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|<sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk</sup>]]''</b> 23:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::p.s. I don't quite see a pattern that would have us contacting the ISP provider. <b>[[User:Jaakobou|<span style="font-family:Arial; color:teal;">Jaakobou</span>]]''[[User talk:Jaakobou|<sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk</sup>]]''</b> 00:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::It's listed in [[DNSBL]]s as dynamic, contains ".dyn." in the [[rDNS]], has no edits outside of the two minutes it was used for here, and see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/84.127.90.222][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/84.127.89.68]. My guess is that the IP can remain static for up to a week at a time, and that the computer may even be a compromised [[Zombie computer|zombie]] with an open proxy. But still both the machine and the user are likely to have changed IP before the block expires. -- [[user:zzuuzz|zzuuzz]] <sup>[[user_talk:zzuuzz|(talk)]]</sup> 10:29, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== [[User:Huaiwei]] ==

There's a lot of stuff going on in regards to this user, most of which is summarized in [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Singapore Airlines]]. There's a decent amount of criticisms of User:Huaiwei for uncivil comments, and it's getting out of hand, especially in [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Singapore Airlines#Withdrawing from RfM]]. I'm not sure if this is the place to report anything of this sort (or what to do in this instance), but I think it's starting to get out of hand. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 23:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:See also [[Talk:Singapore Airlines fleet]], especially [[Talk:Singapore_Airlines_fleet#Redirected|this thread]] for additional examples. (I have not been at my best there either, and I'm aware of this, but I think Huaiwei's behaviour is much worse.) [[User:Yilloslime|Yilloslime]] [[User_Talk:Yilloslime|('''t''')]] 04:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:*That is, effectively, like a pot calling a kettle black so I would suggest that you not comment any further. Thank you! ...''[[User:Dave1185|Dave1185]] ([[User talk:Dave1185|talk]]) 05:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)''
:::Dave, I'm fully aware that in posting here I'm opening up my own actions to scrutiny. If I didn't feel confident that anyone who examines the page would agree that Huaiwei's behaviour has been a lot more inflammatory than mine or anyone else there (e.g. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Singapore_Airlines_fleet&diff=244195172&oldid=244194292], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Singapore_Airlines_fleet&diff=243909051&oldid=243664317]), then I wouldn't have chimed in. And, the 15 blocks in his blocklog and this [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Huaiwei|user RfC]] would suggest that the issue is a recurring problem for this user. [[User:Yilloslime|Yilloslime]] [[User_Talk:Yilloslime|('''t''')]] 15:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::*This editor (Huaiwei) has what appear to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3AHuaiwei 15 blocks] for edit-warring, occasionally with a side of incivility. ''Fifteen''. And now, he's... being uncivil and edit-warring. I am not going to act unilaterally at this point, because I've worked with Yilloslime and have high regard for him which may color my judgement, but I'd like some outside admins to look this over, because I feel pretty strongly that a last-chance-warning or a prolonged vacation from Wikipedia are in order. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 04:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::*I recon you are less familiar with my editorial history to form the above conclusions. While I am aware that there is no justification to editwar, 12 out of my 15 edit-war blocks involved disputes with [[User:Instantnood]], a dispute which went all the way to the ArbCom three times over (and that dispute had nothing to do with aviation nor Singapore...but on Chinese politics). Out of the most recent three blocks, one involved disputes with [[User:Sparrowman980]], and the other with [[User:Coloane]], both highly notoriously disruptive users which even [[User:Russavia]] has frequently revert-warred with[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_largest_airlines_in_Oceania&action=history]. The only time I felt I have overstepped in enthusiasm was the most recent edit-war block on 20 February 2008.
:::*As for Yilloslime's assertions over my unilateral "incivility", I would plead for all neutral reviewers to look through the cited discussions and form their own opinions. If, after over four years of contributions to this site, I have remained as negative and incorrigible as they claim, I am highly doubtful I would have been able to make any positive contributions to this site...all 34,000 edits and counting.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] ([[User talk:Huaiwei|talk]]) 18:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* Coloane was indeed an unusual user. My implementation of an AN/I consensus for a topic ban on him got him so worked up that he wrote to Jimbo under the title "Disturbed by the Administrator". [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 12:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*Guys, let's not forget about leaving a notice for the above-mentioned editor if you are going to have a section here that would require him to be answerable to. Fortunately, I have done so on behalf on all you oh-so-forgetful-folks here. Personally, I have worked with Huaiwei on a few article and I know he is just like me, passionate about things we all feel connected or inspired by, thus resulting in a kind of wiki-attachment to the page. Note that I endorse [[WP:DGAF]] so I don't have such problems.  That is all. ...''[[User:Dave1185|Dave1185]] ([[User talk:Dave1185|talk]]) 05:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)''
:*And you also happen to have biases that agree with that of Huaiwei's. Hardly a voice of reason or a voice of neutrality. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 06:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::*So sue me! Perhaps it is time for you take a look at [[WP:Dispute resolution]] before you would consider engaging people on such an underhanded approach because it is not very gentlemanly to be voicing about another person behind his back, eh? I call that downright sneaky and underhanded. According to [[WP:DR]], it would be best to ignore you and bid you adieu~! ...''[[User:Dave1185|Dave1185]] ([[User talk:Dave1185|talk]]) 11:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)''
::*This, coming from someone who just took offence with my use of the word "cronies"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ARequests_for_mediation%2FSingapore_Airlines&diff=243734605&oldid=243231044]. He considers it having negative connotation, and thus labels it as "extremely uncivil", when I merely used that term to avoid having to type out the same few names[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ARequests_for_mediation%2FSingapore_Airlines&diff=243875400&oldid=243734605]. And yet even in this AI, he publicly dismisses someone for being biased against him and being devoid of reason or neutrality. May the above conduct speak for themselves.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] ([[User talk:Huaiwei|talk]]) 18:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::As a point of information - Cronies is an extremely negative word in English, yes.  It has no non-negative connotations.  Please do not use it in Wikipedia discussions, as it is uncivil and a personal attack.  You may not have known that, but please don't do it again.  Thank you.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 02:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::: I didn't dismiss Dave's statement. I only dismissed the righteous tone in his statement. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 02:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::*Right... Be specific then, define the '''"righteous tone"''' part in my statement for me, will you? ...''[[User:Dave1185|Dave1185]] ([[User talk:Dave1185|talk]]) 03:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)''
:::: Sorry, self-righteous tone is a more apt descriptor, as well as unnecessarily snide. "Fortunately, I have done so on behalf on all you oh-so-forgetful-folks here." "That is, effectively, like a pot calling a kettle black so I would suggest that you not comment any further." "According to [[WP:DR]], it would be best to ignore you and bid you adieu~!" And yet you haven't acted according to WP:DR, either. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 04:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*As an alternative to personalizing the discussion, people could comment at [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Airlinerlist.com_and_Airfleets.net|this RS noticeboard topic]] on if the sources used to generate the lists of aircraft (which are the core of the dispute) are acceptable as RS. Once you have a clear decision on that point, an article RfC would be relatively simple way of dealing with a clear keep/delete question. [[User:TimVickers|Tim Vickers]] ([[User talk:TimVickers|talk]]) 16:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:*And I believe TimVickers has struck the nail on the head. It has become far too fashionable for a select group of individuals to spend an impressive amount of energy discrediting me as a person, rather than the topic(s) in question. I would think it a matter of concern if there is anyone attempting to invoke an editorial ban on an individual based on a charge which is applicable to both sides, and using it as another weapon to push through a disputed article merge request by gagging the their main opponent. I certainly hope that my concerns will not come to light.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] ([[User talk:Huaiwei|talk]]) 17:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Well, Huaiwei, I guess you just agreed that your "references" are invalid, if you'll read the RS discussion. Tim, this entire discussion has been personalized a while back, it's getting to the point where I think someone need to step in and put an end to it, something I'm not in the position to do as an involved party. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 23:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
* I'm personally of the view there's very little to do here. This seems more like a content dispute that's become a bit personal and perhaps if the content or sourcing issues were resolved, the dispute would be as well. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 13:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: If you just look at the RfM and all the involved talkpages, you'll notice that content issues have been in dispute for so long. The RfM is barely getting anywhere, either, with one of the primary parties having backed out BECAUSE of incivility issues. [[User:Butterfly0fdoom|Butterfly0fdoom]] ([[User talk:Butterfly0fdoom|talk]]) 16:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[The Syn]], [[Steve Nardelli]] and [[User:Umbrello]] ==

Shortly after [http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/14Hour/message/2920 a call] for fans of The Syn to edit their Wikipedia article from the owner of their official e-mail list ([http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/14Hour/ 14Hour]) and subsequent [http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/14Hour/message/2924 complaints of anti-Syn bias on Wikipedia], a new Wikipedia editor appeared with the username [[User:Umbrello|Umbrello]]. Umbrello Records was founded and is run by [[Steve Nardelli]], lead singer in The Syn. Umbrello is a single-purpose account and has only edited articles on The Syn and on Nardelli. His user page was basically the same as the article page for [[Steve Nardelli]], although he latterly said this was just because he was using it as a sandbox.

I suspect user Umbrello probably is Steve Nardelli; he has form for promoting himself on the Web (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Syn&diff=241666318&oldid=241558877 this material] since removed from The Syn article). I had tagged both articles with coi notices and done npov tidy-up, although Umbrello and an IP editor who is clearly the same person (24.47.192.90) has removed the coi tags (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Nardelli&diff=244269023&oldid=244127085 diff]) but hasn't yet explicitly addressed whether he does or does not have a COI. I previously [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AConflict_of_interest%2FNoticeboard&diff=243699604&oldid=243699063 placed a message] on the COI noticeboard. Meanwhile [[User:RexerX|RexerX]] appears to be a sock (or meatpuppet) for [[User:Umbrello|Umbrello]] (makes same sort of edits, had identical user pages for a while).

Some edits by Umbrello, RexerX and 24.47.192.90 are useful. However, 'they' have removed most of the critical material from [[The Syn]] article, some of which had no citations and probably should have been removed anyway (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Syn&diff=241670547&oldid=241666318 diff]) and some of which did have citations (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Syn&diff=244329787&oldid=244264090 here]). They have added overly praiseworthy material that cannot be supported (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Syn&diff=243254667&oldid=242524330 diff]) and twisted quotes (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Nardelli&diff=241691320&oldid=241558648 this] versus my fix [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Nardelli&diff=242524197&oldid=242519667 here]).

I have some history off Wikipedia, good and bad, with Nardelli and The Syn, so I would rather someone else patrolled this situation. Can anyone review behaviour? [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 14:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:Seems pretty damn likely this user is strongly connected to Umbrello Records. Notice [[:Image:Steve Nardelli.jpg]] is marked as {{tl|pd-author}} while the image is pretty clearly watermarked as the work of [[Martyn Adelman]], who is a member of [[The Syn]], and its sourcing information is "from The Syn website". Might want to inform Umbrello that they're the subject of an AN/I thread, btw. &mdash;/[[User:Mendaliv|<b>M</b><small>endaliv</small>]]/<sup><small>[[User talk:Mendaliv|2¢]]</small></sup>/<sub><small>[[Special:Contributions/Mendaliv|Δ's]]</small></sub>/ 16:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[user:Spartan815]] ==

I'm concerned about this account {{vandal|Spartan815}}.  I reverted some vandalism from the user.  Then I looked at the contribs.  this user had no edits since spring of 2006.  Then today we have a small string of edits, all appear to be vandalism.  I left a level 3 warning, but i'm concerned it may be a comprimised account or something.  At minimum I think the account needs some eyes on it.--[[User:Cube lurker|Cube lurker]] ([[User talk:Cube lurker|talk]]) 15:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:BalkanFever]] for the n-th time ==

{{resolved}}
[[User:BalkanFever]] has tons of ANIs and Witiquette-s opened against him cause of his poor treatment of fellow contributors. As a result of the latest one he got sort of an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABalkanFever&diff=242955265&oldid=242948172 official warning]. That was just a week ago - and here's what he states in an edit-summary today: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zajdi%2C_zajdi%2C_jasno_sonce&diff=244338498&oldid=244249709 reverting the vandalism by the anon scumbag.] I know someone might've done something wrong, but does this justify calling him a scumbag? Or that one (in Macedonian): [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zajdi%2C_zajdi%2C_jasno_sonce&diff=241942805&oldid=241832443 Die, die, dirty "bitch" (or more like a male prostitute in the dirtiest way a man from the Balkans could say it)]? Or: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zajdi%2C_zajdi%2C_jasno_sonce&diff=241753230&oldid=241751740 go away, go away (a word I don't know but it certainly means something like the one from the previous comment) dog]? And that's just on one talkpage. On one of the previous ANIs we were discussing his comments [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male%C5%A1evo-Pirin_dialect&action=history there], like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male%C5%A1evo-Pirin_dialect&diff=228360309&oldid=228281633 oh hell no. you are disgustingly biased. please hold while i vomit. seriously, stay away] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male%C5%A1evo-Pirin_dialect&diff=229183982&oldid=229062846 btw are you a steak or a kebab?]. He also has the habbit calling everybody a vandal when he is in a content dispute like here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male%C5%A1evo-Pirin_dialect&diff=229212897&oldid=229210262], but I view this as a minor offence given all the others. I can't possibly dig it up right now, but he used to tell annons to f*ck off and so on. And mind you he was blocked  at the time before he created his current account [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonia_(terminology)&diff=prev&oldid=170437640 for things like]: No, [[Greeks|Assfuckers]] (has a nice ring to it :D) use it as a pejorative term. It offends [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]] because most of them aren't from Skopje. And even if they are that is not their national identity. Americans don't call Georgians Tbilisians. Пичка ти грчина. Alex (the one in Cyrillic has a similar meaning to "f*ck your mom") and subsequently calling me a tone of nasty things. --'''[[User:Laveol|<span style="color:#007700;">L<span style="color:#009900;">a<span style="color:#00aa00;">v<span style="color:#00cc00;">e</span>o</span>l</span></span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Laveol|T]]</sup>''' 16:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Blocked for 24 hours for the edit summary [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zajdi%2C_zajdi%2C_jasno_sonce&diff=244338498&oldid=244249709 here] after he was warned about language less than 1 week ago.  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 16:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== User:IRDT ==

{{resolved|Editor is editing under a new name per fresh-start proposal below, or has left. Old user pages protected. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 23:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)}}
* [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive481#Questionable Username]]
* {{userlinks|IRDT}}
* {{userlinks|IReceivedDeathThreats}}

I re-blocked [[User:IRDT]], this time indefinitely. His 24-hour block expired, and the first edit he made was to go back to his old User Talk page and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:IReceivedDeathThreats&diff=prev&oldid=243940530 start in on the "death threat" stuff again]. He then started agitating on Mangojuice's user talk page about the block on his old name [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mangojuice&diff=prev&oldid=243980662] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mangojuice&diff=prev&oldid=243988036]. Clearly, this is not what was meant by coming back with a new user name and being a good editor. 

As I pointed out in the archived thread linked above, the patience of the community is not inexhaustable, and tying up our time, energy, and resources arguing with someone who seems to be here only to make some utterly inexplicable [[WP:POINT|point]] and engage in Wikidrama is disruptive and unproductive to the community.  --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 21:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Agree with the block, this is [[WP:POINT|pointy]] to the extreme. Between these two accounts, they've been active for two-and-a-half years, and only have 122 edits to the mainspace. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 21:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't see a need for this block. I didn't agree with the original username block, and I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the "agitating" on Mangojuice's talk page. Even if the community decides he can't have his original name, I see no reason to not give him a chance with the abbreviated version. His behavior hasn't been great, but I can understand why he'd be annoyed with recent events. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 22:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::We did give him another chance, ''twice''. First by permitting him to use a new account without a provocative username, but essentially all of the edits from that new account were either to make grievances about admins, talk about his old username, talk about "death threats", or argue. He was then indef-blocked (not by me) and then that block was shortened to 24 hours, with the idea that when he returned we would see if he would move on from contentious editing and start contributing. Unfortunately, that did not occur, and his first edit was to reconstruct the provocative, chip-on-shoulder user page for his username-blocked account. Further edits did not demonstrate moving on, either.  So, yes, he's had plenty of chances. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 22:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Since other people expressed the idea that the block may not have been good, both on this page and his talk page, it's understandable that he'd like to clear that subject up before moving on. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 22:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: I still don't see a problem with the original username.  How about ISeeDeadPeople ... is that bad?  If the person ''actually'' received a death threat recently, I would expect they're more than sensitive about things, especially if the "authorities" didn't handle the death threat well.  As I said before, they are opening themselves up to questions whether they insist or not, plus they will get the "IRecieveTelemarketingCallsAtDinner" "jokes", like it or not.  <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 23:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::The original name was discussed exhaustively both here and at [[WP:RFCN]]. The issue was not the ''inherent'' inappropriateness of such a name (unlike those that are obscene phrases, attacks on religious or ethnic groups, threats to hack/vandalize Wikipedia, etc.) but that it was disruptive as used by the user, who made multiple and difficult-to-understand references to death threats, demanded attention on his user page, etc.. He has continued that line of editing with his new username. Believe me, if he had not made provocative and pointy edits with that username, and if someone had asked him about it and the answer was something like "oh, it's an old band name" or similar, there would be no issue. But instead it was used to stir up Wikidrama. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 23:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::The "exhaustive" discussion at RFCN lasted 2 hours, and I didn't see a consensus in the previous ANI discussion that the ''username'' was a clear problem. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 23:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I have to follow this one...this block is pretty inappropriate. I mean - essentially the only thing he is guilty of is having his block lifted. Especially when - as he states - he was given [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIReceivedDeathThreats&diff=242576446&oldid=242576306 permission] to have the language on his page. So...he's told it's okay to do it. He does it. When he does it, he's blocked... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 23:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
(resent indent) Lucasbfr's comments were extremely unfortunate. First, he removed the unblock decline message of a longtime admin (Sandstein) and replaced them with a poorly-phrased "permission" to do something which was one of the things that got the user blocked in the first place. Nevertheless, that "permission" surely did not refer to the blocked account but to the new one. And "You can state what it means to you on your userpage" ''does not'' mean repeating the whole provocative business about death threats and instructing other editors what they can and cannot say. I simply can't understand what motivates this user to return again and again to this issue instead of just going on and editing productively.  --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 23:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:It seemed as if the user was OK with his ID being IRDT, but as you point out, as soon as he was "unleashed", he began trying to get his original ID unblocked. He's seemingly hung up on that ID, and for reasons that he won't share. He's basically playing a game of some kind. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 01:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:And as you suggest, his snippy comment on his IRDT talk page, about how he had to change his original user ID due to certain wikipedia editors, is a broadly-leveled personal attack and is inappropriate, even if one specific editor may have thought it was OK. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 02:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

When he emerged with his new identity, IRDT compared his having to change his name to being raped. He also claimed that being blocked was to get him "out of the way" so his article could be deleted. Do we really need that kind of attitude around? '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:And now he's asking for a friendly admin to file a [[WP:RFAR]] for him  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IRDT&diff=244056256&oldid=244035056] to allow him to keep his name. A request for arbitration on a user ID??? That boy is seriously obsessed. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:And he was blocked for it. The point is - he hasn't done anything since his unblock to be blocked again...we can't just go back and resentence because we didn't like the original result. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 04:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::After his block expired, he did nothing except lobby for getting his old ID back. How does that further the interests of wikipedia? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::(e/c) Smashville, this block is not "resentencing". It's for his conduct since the block expired. I supported your reduction of his block to 24 hours on the presumption that he meant what he said when he wrote, "Ok, fine. Going away, for now. Sorry so much admin effort was expended on this. I'd like to go back to productive editing, as defending myself is obviously not working." [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IRDT&diff=prev&oldid=242525568] But instead of doing that, he started right in on the death threats stuff and "'''Don't ask me to elaborate or do anything to compromise my safety or pseudonymity.''' Yes, that means you." on his old user page, which is the material you removed from that same page on October 2, with the edit summary "remove rant by blocked user". And then he went on to try to get his old username unblocked, even though he has a new one that was not blocked, despite all the people advising him to move on from that. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 04:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::He's playing a game in which he simultaneously draws attention to himself and then refuses to comment on it "for safety reasons". That's technically known as "jerking people around". Also known as "disruptive behavior". Amusingly enough, IRDT also stands for "Inflatable Re-entry and Descent Technology". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 05:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Where's that essay, "Wikipedia is not a substitute for professional therapy"? It seems appropriate. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 07:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Could you show me where he was "jerking people around" prior to the username block and userpage blanking? I don't know if he was being disruptive before all of this started, nobody has bothered commenting on that as far as I've seen, but I don't see anything wrong with the username or userpage. I acknowledge that he's acted very poorly since it all started, but I still don't see ''why'' it all started. --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 13:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Again, a user gave him permission to do that. He provided the diff. The diff is in this discussion. And then he got blocked for it. I mean, there was obviously not a total consensus that his username was inappropriate. My issue is with the fact that he was specifically told he could do it...and the fact that he is adding references to IP talk pages shows he doesn't entirely understand Wikipedia...so someone needs to explain to him why he can't do it instead of just blocking him for something he was told by an admin that he could do. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 12:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Where did anyone give him permission to continue taking verbal shots at anyone who questions his user ID? [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 12:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Which verbal shots would those be? --[[User:Onorem|Onorem]][[Special:Contributions/Onorem|♠]][[User talk:Onorem|Dil]] 13:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I'm confused, too...but I did just see that he wants to take his username to ArbCom...oh come on. Why is it so hard to edit under a username that doesn't disrupt the project? How does having the username IReceivedDeathThreats protect a person when they are editing anonymously? The more I think about it, the less sense it makes...I don't really agree with the second block...but if he doesn't get the point and doesn't stop wasting everyone's time, I don't really see an alternative... --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 14:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support''' the block on the basis that the user has made few positive contributions on both accounts, the username was wholly inappropriate, and that his veiled crap post-block was [[WP:POINTY|pointy]] and annoying. Sorry, administrators have little patience for this childish crap, and if you want to waste our time with it, then you can be shown the door. <small>[[User:Seicer|<font color="#CC0000">seicer</font>]] &#x007C; [[User_talk:Seicer|<font color="#669900">talk</font>]] &#x007C; [[Special:Contributions/Seicer|<font color="#669900">contribs</font>]]</small> 13:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*I support a block, though not necessarily a permanent one. "IReceivedDeathThreats" is ''not'' the username of an editor who wants "safety and pseudonymity". It's the username of an editor who wants attention, who wants to provoke an emotional response in everyone who sees it. Considering the contribs of IRDT, this editor is not ready to help build an encyclopaedia, and they have made that quite clear: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IRDT&diff=prev&oldid=242451882]. [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 14:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

=== Proposal re:IRDT ===
Following up on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIRDT&diff=244243575&oldid=244223336 what I just posted to his user talk page], I'd like to make the proposal that this editor be permitted to continue to edit under a new username under the terms below:
# [[User:IReceivedDeathThreats]] and [[User:IRDT]] remain indef blocked, and their user and user talk pages protected for now. (They can be deleted at some later date; the contents would be available to admins in case this came up again.)
# The user may register a new account with a username unrelated to the previous two and otherwise compliant with [[WP:U]]. 
# The new account will not be history-linked or otherwise associated with the previous accounts (i.e., this is not a [[WP:CHU|user name change]]). 
# The user agrees to make no further reference to, or requests regarding, these two previous accounts (or blocks) in his edits, or any posts regarding any of the matters ("death threats", "personal safety", etc.) that were the substance of the [[WP:ANI]] and [[WP:RFCN]] discussions, and may not edit the user pages, user talk pages, or user subpages, of the previous accounts. 
# If the above is not complied with, the new account will be blocked. 

Basically this is a fresh start without prejudice, with the hope that he will go on to be a happy, productive, anonymous Wikipedian. I did not intend the current block or the preceding one to be a community ban; this should provide a means by which the user can continue to edit. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 23:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - sounds reasonable. Are these conditions as formal as a community ban? '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 23:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Formal in the sense of being specific, yes, but since we will not know what his new account is, and hopefully never will, this will have to be the documentation of the editing restrictions. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 02:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Disagree''' The editor should be allowed to edit under their ORIGINAL name, however, effectively the same proviso's with regard to DRAMATIC use should be in place. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 23:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::I think there's very little likelihood of his being able to edit under his original username, given the discussion in the archived ANI thread and the RFCN. Beyond that, the revisions of his user page and user talk page would be there for people to bring up and comment on (unless they are deleted and/or oversighted), which is what we want to avoid. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 02:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support <s>Wait and see''' - It's really up to the user whether to decrease the drama. If he keeps his ID but has to remove the in-your-face comments on the user page, that probably won't be good enough for him, as it would erode the point of having that user ID.</s> [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 01:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Bugs, we don't really have that option. His IRDT account is blocked. So the alternatives are basically (1) he stays blocked; (2) someone unblocks him; or (3) he edits under a new name as above. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 02:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Sorry, I wasn't awake. :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 04:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support, or why bother?''' Under both identities, the user has 120 mainspace edits in over two years of being registered. It's to his great advantage to just start clean somewhere, and lose the whole "I was threatened/raped" attitude about his old user name. Assuming good faith on him just not realizing that he could start over, this should have happened for him long ago. I was going to suggest this, but MCB beat me to it. He gets a brand new start and we gets to stop talking about this. [[User:Dayewalker|Dayewalker]] ([[User talk:Dayewalker|talk]]) 03:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - If the user truly wants to contribute to WP henceforth, then the selection of a new username and constructive participation are welcomed.  As Dayewalker says above, losing the attitude and the plea for attention will go far in finalizing the issue.--<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JavierMC|<span style="color:#fef;background:darkblue;">'''Javier'''</span>]][[User talk:JavierMC|<span style="color:darkblue;background:white;">'''MC'''</span>]]</span></small> 03:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

*This seems pointless. This user already had a fresh start with an unrelated account. If they accept the essential conditions of this remedy - that they should neither be mentioning death threats nor linking back to the first (?) account [[User:IReceivedDeathThreats]] - then they can go ahead and edit using [[User:IRDT]], which could be unblocked on acceptance of the conditions. Adding another account to the mix just  makes it harder for admins to ensure that the conditions are met. [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 13:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Except that it wasn't really an unrelated account, he seems to have felt obligated to "explain" what the letters stood for, etc., and if/when that happens again, we'll be back in the same place. Plus, the revisions of his user page and user talk page would be there for people to bring up and comment on (unless they are deleted and/or oversighted). And if someone innocently asks "what does IRDT stand for?", either he answers, which leads to drama, or he says something like "I'm not allowed to say," and boom, ''instant'' Wikidrama.  Much better to have a complete fresh start with no possible link to all this cruft. This does not need to be monitored by admins or mentored by anyone - if it works out, we would never know who he is or what he's doing, so long as it ''isn't'' abusive editing. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 18:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Rest assured that his new account, if known, will be "watched". But if he creates a new account and doesn't tell anyone and doesn't refer to the old account - then he's good. In fact, given his lack of response, maybe he's already done that. (AGF) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 18:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Okay, I think I understand where MCB's proposal was coming from. Perhaps we should just mark this resolved, in a "we'd all be happiest if we never heard from you again" kind of way.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 18:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
* Ok, unblock IRDT, remove the drama, and get them a mentor. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 13:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Please see comment immediately above. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 18:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Jeffrey Steingarten]] ==

I have now run across two editors who are reporting the death of [[Jeffrey Steingarten]], the food writer.  There is nothing on Google news that indicates that he has died, and one of the reports of the death was a severe BLP violation.  It would be helpful if others keep an eye out.  Thanks.  <font family="Arial">[[User:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">Little Red Riding Hood</span>]]''[[User talk:NurseryRhyme|<span style="color:dark blue">talk</span>]]''</font> 19:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:{{vandal|Themanwhoateeverything}} indef-blocked as vandalism-only account. Likely sock {{IPvandal|72.140.76.123}} blocked 48 hours. Note that "The Man Who Ate Everything" is the title of a book by Steingarten; this appears to be a SPA attack account. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] ([[User talk:MCB|talk]]) 18:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Help on RfC Closure and Certification ==

Would an uninvolved and non-interested Admin please certify the results of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Weatherman_(organization)/Terrorism_RfC this RfC] and please officially close it. 

It’s a long RfC and quote complicated with a great deal of information and evidence posted, but it would do so much to putting an end to the current edit was surrounding nearly 1/2 dozen articles.

Much appreciated. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 00:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:My position [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWikidemon&diff=244265179&oldid=244237701] -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 00:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::I would welcome help finalizing and certifying the results of the RfC so that we can put a lid on the further, ongoing revert warring on the point.  I have no idea how one might go about such a thing, but in the meanwhile the outcome of the RfC is pretty obvious not to cover accusations against certain people of being terrorists in their own BLP.  I do have a hard time fathoming how anyone could take the RfC outcome otherwise given that a majority of editors were against it. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 01:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::My suggestion is that the closure be deferred to November 4. [[User:Looie496|Looie496]] ([[User talk:Looie496|talk]]) 02:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::And in the meanwhile what?  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 03:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: For once I agree with Wikidemon. Since I don’t trust his creative interpretation of the RfC results, I dont feel any obligation to abide by any hollow claim of "consensus" referenced to it. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[Orgone]], again... ==

can someone please help straighten this out?  once more, [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] and [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] are adding a POV tag to the article, but refusing to discuss the matter on the talk page.  this issue was raised previously at a now-archived discussion [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive479#Orgone_-_help_with_pointless_POV_tag|here]], at which point they stopped adding the tag. but now they are back at it, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orgone&diff=244266672&oldid=241595563 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orgone&diff=next&oldid=244283381 here].  note further that OrangeMarlin's edit (the first link) was marked as minor, and that his edit summary clearly indicates that he has no interest in discussing the matter. 

I wouldn't mind discussing the issue and trying to resolve whatever POV they seem to think the article has, but their actions make it appear that they simply want the POV tag to remain as a permanent feature of an article. This is not the way a dispute template is supposed to be used.  Can someone please get them either to '''(a)''' state the nature of the POV problem so it can be resolved and the tag can be removed, or '''(b)''' stop placing a tag on an article that they have no interest in improving.  I'd rather put this article to rest so I can do other things.

thanks, I appreciate it.  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 03:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:I've added the general sanctions template to the talk page and will watch the article for a while. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 13:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::ok, thanks.  I'll make another request on the talk page for an explanation (assuming one hasn't arrived already), and then remove the NPOV tag later today if none arrives.  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 18:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Sockpuppetry ==

{{Resolved|1=Sockpuppets confirmed and indef blocked. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
Hi, while checking my watchlist, i came across three incidents of mass deletion from Muslim apostate related articles such as [[Ramzi Yousef]], [[List of people who converted to Christianity]] and [[List of former Muslims]]. The vandalism was done by three separate accounts. A user named [[User:FarhadS1N|FarhadS1N]] deleted the entire "Conversion to Christianity" section in the Ramzi Yousef article, even though it was sourced with credible and reliable newspapers such as NY times, CBS news, wtc. Another user [[User:JMDU|JMDU]] removed Ramzi Yousef's picture and deleted his entry from the "List of people who converted to Christianity". Yet, another user [[Iman19|Iman19]] did the same in the "List of former Muslims" article. These striking similarities raised my suspiscion that they were operated by the same user. 

Upon close checking of their contributions, i found that their edits were done within minutes of each other. For instance, [[Special:Contributions/FarhadS1N|FarhadS1N's was on 8:16]], [[Special:Contributions/Iman19|Iman19's was on 8:20]] and [[Special:Contributions/JMDU|JMDU's was on 8:22]]. Also, they have each made only one edit which was to the aforementioned articles. 

Faced with these facts, i can say with the utmost certainty that they are in fact sockpuppets. As such, i request any interested administrator to revert their edits, block these accounts indefinitely. I also suspect that these sockpuppets were created by a user who already has a normal account in wikipedia. Therefore, i also request to perform a usercheck and trace any other accounts that were created using this IP address. [[User:Joyson Noel|Joyson Noel]] ([[User talk:Joyson Noel|talk]]) 14:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:Checkuser says {{confirmed}} as apparently the same user:
:# {{checkuser|2sar1dhar}}
:# {{checkuser|JMDU}}
:# {{checkuser|Iman19}}
:# {{checkuser|FarhadS1N}}
:And {{likely}} match for {{checkuser|Malieek}} &ndash; <span style="font-family: Garamond">[[User:Luna Santin|<span style="color:#1E90FF;">'''Luna Santin'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Luna Santin|talk]])</span> 18:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::all above accounts have been blocked for illegally using multiple accounts.  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 18:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Removal of comments by Satori Son ==

I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACriticism_of_fractional-reserve_banking&diff=244366061&oldid=244325212 removed] a comment by an anon user at [[Talk:Criticism of fractional-reserve banking]] as I believe it does not comply with our guidelines on [[WP:TALK#How to use article talk pages]] and [[WP:No personal attacks]]. The comment has been restored by another anon, and I kindly request review by the community. Thank you. — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 16:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:While there is potential for escalation, I don't think the comment should be removed. The "attack" isn't personal; it's built into the context of the article and is possibly true. I'd let the thread unfold (if it goes anywhere at all). [[User:Tanthalas39|<font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">'''Tan'''</font>]]  &#124;  [[User talk:Tanthalas39|<font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39</font>]] 16:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I'll grant that as personal attacks go it isn't horribly offensive, but it reeks of [[WP:HARASS]] and [[WP:OUTING]]. 
::Even setting aside the harassment issues, [[WP:TALK#How to use article talk pages]] clearly states ''"Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects)."'' At best, a post at [[WP:COIN]] ''may'' have been warranted, but otherwise this appears to be an attempt to embarrass and intimidate an editor with an opposing viewpoint on the specific article.  — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span>
:::It's the kind of comment that contributes nothing to improving the article. It personally attacks gregalton. Furthermore, I'd bet euros to dollars that the IP is the banned sockpuppeteer {{user|Karmaisking}}, who has an obsessive fixation on both the topic and on the specific editor singled out for criticism. I'd suggest [[WP:RBI|revert, block, ignore]], or at the very least [[WP:DENY|deny recognition]]. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]'''&nbsp;<sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 18:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I thought of the possible Karmaisking connection, too, but {{Useredits|24.184.170.21}} and {{Useredits|24.188.32.250}} both resolve out of Amityville, New York, US, and Karma is located in Sydney, Australia. Still very inappropriate behavior, though. — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 20:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Or better yet, both policies at once! Accusations of non-existent COIs are personal attacks. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Meatpuppets? ==

Not sure what, if anything, can be done about this, so I'll ping here.

There is a net community of video editors called "YouTube Poop" who like to remix various cartoon and video game materials into a "humourous" nature. This community considers themselves to be notable enough to warrant inclusion here in Wikipedia, either by an article, or just mentioning in various articles. One of the more prolific was {{userblocked|Moleman 9000}}, who was blocked for threatening another editor. He has returned at least twice this far, {{userblocked|Moleman 9001}} and {{userblocked|Moleman 9002}}, each being blocked due to the primary issue of making threats. I won't provide many diffs here, unless requested, but the main accounts listed here should give some light into the issue. 

Now, for disclosure, I also accused Moleman 9000 of being a sock of another user, {{userblocked|Particleman24}}, who appears to have decided to [[WP:RTV|vanish]] after I filed an [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Particleman24|RFC]] against Particleman24. The contributions were too similar for me to overlook, but a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Particleman24|checkuser]] comes up negative. The sock case is at [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Particleman24]]

Most recently, {{user|Hammerthingys42}} appears with basically the same material. And for the main point of my rambling, that there appears to be a forum for this community which has posted challeges to either blatantly vandalize Wikipedia, or somehow get their community recognized by Wikipedia. If you were to look at [http://youchewpoop.com/forum/search.php?keywords=wikipedia&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=59&fid%5B%5D=29&fid%5B%5D=17&fid%5B%5D=60&fid%5B%5D=9&fid%5B%5D=3&fid%5B%5D=4&fid%5B%5D=6&fid%5B%5D=7&fid%5B%5D=24&fid%5B%5D=25&fid%5B%5D=19&fid%5B%5D=20&fid%5B%5D=21&fid%5B%5D=22&fid%5B%5D=23&fid%5B%5D=44&fid%5B%5D=51&fid%5B%5D=52&fid%5B%5D=1&fid%5B%5D=10&fid%5B%5D=33&fid%5B%5D=31&fid%5B%5D=18&fid%5B%5D=8&fid%5B%5D=30&fid%5B%5D=13&fid%5B%5D=12&fid%5B%5D=15&fid%5B%5D=36&fid%5B%5D=32&fid%5B%5D=11&fid%5B%5D=14&fid%5B%5D=34&fid%5B%5D=5&fid%5B%5D=35&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search], you'll see some of the older discussion.

So, to close with my opening statement, is there anything that can be done, other than watch? I'm not sure I could go to SSP, since that takes a significant period of time, and AIV would probably reject my request. [[User:Yngvarr|Yngvarr]] [[User talk:Yngvarr|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Yngvarr|(c)]] 20:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:[[WP:RBI|It's easy]]. SSP would just be a waste of time. If there are abusive edits, just block them right off. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::I would agree, but being under the [[WP:3RR]], since this is not vandalism, I would be wary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colgate_(toothpaste)&diff=prev&oldid=244437312] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Colgate_(toothpaste)&diff=prev&oldid=244433404] could have easily escalated into an edit war, similar to what you might see in Mid-September on [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series&curid=7103269&action=history]. [[User:Yngvarr|Yngvarr]] [[User talk:Yngvarr|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/Yngvarr|(c)]] 20:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Hammerthingys42 has not continued past a Level 1 warning, so immediate action is not necessary. But I believe there's enough evidence in this ANI report to justify a one-week block if he continues to make edits promoting YouTube Poop. It's quite safe to call this ''abuse'', especially in the presence of an off-wiki campaign to encourage it. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 20:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I'm personally not interested with playing Whack-A-Puppet with the people who want to push this... thing continually by referring to it in articles of the topics they use in their videos, what can be done about this for the future beyond [[WP:RBI]]? [[User talk:Treelo|<span style="color:#94887C;">treelo</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Treelo|<sub style="color:#D2CDC6;">radda</sub>]] 21:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Why not just add all the data you've submitted here to [[Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Particleman24]]. This will allow you to refer to it in the future. The behavioral case may be strong enough to justify blocking all the meatpuppets indef even though [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Moleman 9000|the RFCU]] didn't reveal commonality of IPs. [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 21:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Personal Threats from POV Warrior ==

{{Resolved|1=Indef blocked. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
[[Special:Contributions/Zycriss|Zycriss]] has been on a crusade to redefine [[evil]], [[hell]], and [[cancer]] in spite of a 24-hr block and repeated warnings.  Now he/she has threatened[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AC1k3&diff=244405699&oldid=243464512] to kill me. This is one user I think we can do without.  [[User:C1k3|C1k3]] ([[User talk:C1k3|talk]]) 20:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Indef block the user. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Barneca already has. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Done.  Although, ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cancer&diff=prev&oldid=244405731 just in case he's right]'', in these tumultuous financial times I think buying shares in [[Arm & Hammer]] would be a wise move. --[[User:Barneca|barneca]] ([[User talk:Barneca|talk]]) 20:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
== CENSEI ==

{{Resolved|1=User blocked for 31 hours. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)}}
{{userlinks|CENSEI}} has been disrupting [[WP:AN3]] for his own [[WP:POINT|points]]. He's personally attacked other editors who have been working to check his obvious bias. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=prev&oldid=243580421], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243581439]. And has been pushing his POV on the noticeboard [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243571676]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 03:37, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I support a block for personal attacks after warnings, disrupting Wikipedia and soapboxing. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Block for 2 weeks, this is would be the user's 4th block, previous one for 1 week. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::To keep things clear I wasn't working specifically to check CENSEI's bias.  I haven't edited the article in question for two weeks.  I simply filed a 3RR report on an third-party editor who was up to 6 or 7RR on a potential BLPVIO.  CENSEI disrupted two 3RR reports I filed today, called me "despicable", etc.  He's revert warred the insults into the noticeboard, three times now.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=243572175&oldid=243571390][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=243578454&oldid=243577871][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2F3RR&diff=243583406&oldid=243582975]  There's a very small group, perhaps down to a group of two now, who make wild accusations and personal attacks every time someone tries to deal with disruption under Obama [[Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation|article probation]].  I seem to have been singled out for special abuse.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 03:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::: I never called you dispicable, only your actions, much like Erik the Red said on my talkpage [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=243581372&oldid=243581195], but let me guess, somehow ''that'' wasnt a personal attack but mine was? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 04:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 

:The behavior of the other editors involved her has been a subject of this board several times before, so there is really no need to bring it up again as it should be well known by now. The tag teaming that Wikidemon and co have engaged in on any editor who makes an disagreeable edit to one of their pet articles is despicable, quite frankly. They frequently [[WP:BITE]] new editors and take turns reverting edits they disagree with making sure that they do not engage in 3RR acting in a team so each one can make their own small contribution to an edit war. Explanations are rarely given for their edits aside from the occasional edit summary and they aggressively harass any editor who tries to engage them. Continually plastering my talk page with warnings and deleting my comments from ANI pages is harrasment designed to provoke a response, one that I have fully given. 

:There was no [[WP:BLP]] vio, that was red herring thorn out to provide cover for the edit warring. 

:Blocking me standing up to a bunch of bullies would be most unfair indeed. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Blocking you to prevent further disruption of the project however, would be. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 04:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::: It would seem that I am not the only person disrupting it now am I? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: I would be more than happy to never edit any article on the Obama article porbation list if someone with authority would lay down some discipline to the editors who now dominate and own the aricles. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 04:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::This discussion is not about me, not about Eric the Red, not about Grsz11, and not about any of the other half dozen or so editors CENSEI has been antagonizing in the past few hours .  Grsz11 chose to bring CENSEI's abuse, edit warring, disruption, etc., to the attention of the noticeboard for disrupting a 3RR report.  These reflexive attacks against me are very, very tired.  My editing has been fine.  I have been on this board as the subject of abuse lately, and also to deal with disruption on various articles.  My editing has not been under any serious, reasonable question.  Please leave me out of it.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Can an admin make a formal warning to CENSEI for personal attacks, so the next time he starts like this he will be directly blocked without so much drama? --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 11:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

: Does the same apply to editors making personal attakcs against me and harrassing me? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 13:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::Not necessarily. Believe it or not I had a long term editor of this project tell me that [[WP:IAR]] would allow for a violation of [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:NPA]]. Unfortunately if some admins do not like you then those few will not hesitate to throw personal attacks at you and get away with it. Best course of action- avoid those who you have issues with and work on parts of the project which interest you but doesn't have their participation. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] ([[User talk:Bstone|talk]]) 14:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::: So, I can be blocked for allegations of personal attacks and what not, but fellow editors who behave the same way, and in this case much worse are given an atta boy? I would concur with your best course of action advice, but doesn’t that just encourage article [[WP:OWN|ownership]]? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 15:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::::censei, WP:IAR was written so editors wouldn't apply rules blindly without looking before at the context, it's not a bad thing. There are some attenuating circumstances, for example, when an editor has been provoked by an abusive user to the point where he will explode and make a very uncivil comment about the provoker (I'm not saying that this is the case here, I'm just talking about a case I have seen a pair of times). --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 20:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 

::::: And I could understand an editor exploding or having an outburst who though I was provoking them, but the repeated nature of the harassing tags and threats on my talkpage even after repeatedly asking them to stop is consistent with a pattern of harassment and intimidation, not someone [[WP:IAR|ignoring the rules]] once because I pissed them off. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::CENSEI, warnings are an attempt to deter a user from continued bad behavior. If you actually read them and took them in, we wouldn't be here time and time again. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 22:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::: [[WP:DTTR]]. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 13:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring and BLP violations continue: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=prev&oldid=243665359], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=243665669], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=prev&oldid=243665866]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 15:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:This is a potentially more serious issue.  We have just concluded a month-long RfC.  Additionally, there is a serious BLP issue regarding unproven, unreliably sourced allegations of murder against [[Bernadine Dohrn]] that one commentator is claiming raises Foundation issues.  I tend to disagree that the Foundation is in a position of liability here, but it is edit warring to both overturn an RfC outcome and revert in disputed BLP violations.  I will ''not'' revert war any further with this editor on this, and will have to step back in the interest of not getting hopelessly tangled up in this drama.  However, we do need to figure out what to do about dealing with article disruption and implementing the RfC results.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 15:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:: There was '''no consensus in the RfC''', and your continual repetition that there was does not change this. In addition, I have not been adding material tha Violates BLP to any article, unless you have take this issue to the BLP noticeboard and got some comment to the contrary.  Lets get an uninvolved Admin or tow to certify the RfC closure and what the disposition of it was.

:: And just for some backgroud, Wikidemo is claiming that the following: Grathwohl, Larry, "as told to Frank Reagan", ''Bringing Down America: An FBI Informer with the Weathermen'', Arlington House Publishers, New Rochelle, New York, 1976 pp 168, 169, {{ISBN|0870003350}}, is not a relibale source. Thats ridiculous. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 15:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

::: That is a ''content issue''.  Content issues are not decided here.  However, no, an involved informant's recollection of hearsay testimony he gave the FBI 30+ years ago is not a reliable source for accusing a living person of murder, even if it is printed in a book.  Accusing a living person of murder in an article is a serious issue that one editor, as I said, raises Foundation issues.  The refusal to respect the RfC result - the last stop in dispute resolution as I understand it - raises a question of where to go next.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 16:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::: Wrong on so many counts Wikidemo .... where to begin. First, the informants recollection wasn't 30 years old. The book was published in 1976, making the materials only a few years old. Secondly, its not up to us to decide if the informant is "relaible", the author Frank Reagan, did that for us (yeahhh!). In addition to Reagan, Grathwohl has been used as a source in a number of other [http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGIH&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tab=wn&q=%22Larry+Grathwohl%22 reliable sources]. Lastly, this issue was never specificaly settle on in the RfC (which only touched on th terrorism issue), so there is no point in you lying about it. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 16:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::: Just to note, a report that there has been an accusation of murder is not, in itself, an accusation of murder, especially if it is accompanied by appropriate denials or refutations. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sup>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sup></b> 16:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Wouldn't that depend on the source of the accusation? If I level an accusation of something silly... say, vegetable sacrifices at Sean Connery... Would that merit inclusion in his biography? I'm by no means a reliable source, so the accusation would stay out. Let's say I somehow recruited 5000 bloggers to reiterate my violence to vegetables accusation; it still wouldn't qualify for inclusion. So the source of the accusation needs to be examined. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 16:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::: The book was published in 1976 by an established author. Grathwohl's testimony was also picked up in a 1981 Tod Gitlin Nation article: White Heat Underground. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 17:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

===Comment by Scjessey===
I'd like to add that CENSEI has just filed a malicious AN3 report on me as well ([[WP:AN3#User:Scjessey reported by User:CENSEI (Result: )|report]]) -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 18:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

: How ''dare'' I bring to the attention the fact that you made 10 clearly questionable content reverts on one article in 36 hours .... the nerve! [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yes, how dare you try to get an editor blocked for reverting BLP violations and NPOV violations RS violations and then attacking the editors who call you out on it. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 22:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::: If I called refrigerator a dog, would it play fetch with me .... calling something a BLP violation doesnt make it so. NPOV violations are very much in the eye of the beholder and dont immunize Scjessy from the 3RR, or in his case 10RR rule. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 01:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::But what they are violations, it's kinda different. You've been told this. Please stop playing dumb. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: As the only explanation that anyone has tried to offer for why they were BLP violations were not only few and far between but also bordering on ridiculous to down right fabricated you repeating a baseless charge really does little to change my mind. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 13:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

===Attention needed===
CENSEI has been attempting to game the system, here and at AN3. His personal attacks persist and he continues to violate [[WP:BLP]] policies with no intention to stop. 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243571676] Here he makes accusations at AN3 in an attempt to divert attention from the violation.
::* How dare I question the motivations of a 3RR report. Anyone who does that is clearly gaming the system[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=243705273&oldid=243702097][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=243706731&oldid=243706087][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=243707874&oldid=243707570]. What was the disposition of that 3RR by the way? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=prev&oldid=243580421] Makes an attack.
::* Wikidemon had no right to remove my comments from the 3RR page [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243577871]. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::*They were trolling and personal attacks. He had every right to do so. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* Thats certainly seems to be ''your'' opinion and you are entitled to it, but remeber what they say about opinons and that other thinkg and how they all smell just about as bad. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=prev&oldid=243581195] Calls warnings by neutral users spam and trolling. 
::* Judging by Eric cotnributions here and elsewhere, he is hardly neutral. And after all, like my man Sjessey says, sometimes you just gotta [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=238906395&oldid=238841065 rm BS from POV-pusher][[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::*Neutral does not mean "agreeing with you". Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* No but neutral would certainly indicate that you dont have any conflict of interest here or a prior editing conflict with me. Oh yeah, ''that'' neutral. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC) 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243581439] Uncivil comments.
::* It would nt be the first time Wikidemon has misrepresented someone in an attempt to get them blocked, and as I told him, If he thought I violated 3RR he should have filed a seperate complaint. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=prev&oldid=243582097] Again uncivil and confrontational.
::* Right, compeletely uncalled for .. right along with the comments calling me "childish and immature" and Eric's declaration that he was "ashamed to have you as my Wikipedia co-editor". [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::*Your attacks dripping sarcasm toward other editors are indeed childish and immature. I haven't heard anyone say those kinds of things toward other people since high school. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* Funny, I was just thinking the same thing about you. but naturally, you had a ''good reason'' for your incivility. A reason so good that I could never reach that bar.  [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:CENSEI&diff=prev&oldid=243582917] Describes others attempts to warn him about his behavior as "borderline harrassment."
::* Its my talkpage and If I dont want harrassing and threating messages there, it is my right to remove them, just as others do. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Scjessey&diff=243703408&oldid=243700820] [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::*You shouldn't remove recent warnings from your talkpage, so that reviewing editors can see whether or not you have been warned for your actions. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* its not gone permanently, a link to the differences can be provided. It would also seem to conflict with [[WP:DTTR]]. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=243585254] Claims that he is being "bullied" into edit warring.
::* An interesting interpretation of that to be sure. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=243586298] Uncivl accusations.
::* More like accusations of incivility made in a civil manner. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=prev&oldid=243665359] Inserts BLP-violating material with no consensus.
::* Do show me where this concensus exists. You refer to it so often that it should not be difficult to find. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=prev&oldid=243665866] Undoes a revert of above and labels it "vandalism".
::* After all, no one else has labeled a content revert as undoing vandalsim. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardine_Dohrn&diff=238906395&oldid=238841065] [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:::*'''Borders''' on vandalism. CENSEI, labeling a living person who has not even been brought charges against a murderer is vandalism. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::* Didnt label anyone a murderer guy, only repeated an allegation from a reliable source that the above mentioned was involve din a murder. I suppose that means your characterization of the above '''borders''' on a distortion. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=243665669] Another bad BLP edit,
::* Once again, show me the concensus that material from the book: “Bringing Down America: An FBI Informer with the Weathermen” by Frank Reagan is a BLP violation. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=prev&oldid=243667972] and revert.
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=prev&oldid=243697269] Opens a bad report at AN3 in an attempt to game the board and detract attention from his actions.
::* No one had called attention to my actions, and if the reprot was '''really'' bad then the earlier ones filed agains Norton and Berdov were "bad" as well. Or does this "bad" reprot filing only apply to some editors? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::* Don't disrupt a 3RR report with personal attacks against other editors, again.  And don't impugn my honesty.   If I see an editor pass 3RR in a way that disrupts an article, and who not heed a caution to stop, I will file a 3RR report again.  It is utterly uncalled for to call me names for that or accuse me of plotting anything.  3RR is an electric fence to prevent undue article reverts.  That is what it is there fore.  You edit warred against three other editors who were removing your hostile attempts to interfere.  If you do it again, someone will likely remove it again, and you are running very close to a long-term block or topic ban.  
::::* What you call a "personal attack" I call pointing out the obvious. But then again your condemnation for disrupting a 3RR report probably only goes so far. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=243712330&oldid=243711802] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR&diff=243706731&oldid=243706087]. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::*Yes, CENSEI's abuse of 3RR filings is another problem.  I see he's filed six or so in the past month and a half, all weak, some clearly in bad faith, and all sneak attacks on editors he has been edit warring against.  Now I understand where he dreams up the accusations he makes about other people on the 3RR board.  This is rather abusive.  So to CENSEI, do not do that again either.  No abusing WP:ANI/3RR either to file bogus reports or to disrupt legitimate ones.  And please don't insult our patience by claiming that other editors are doing the same thing. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::* "six or so in the past month and a half", more like 4, so there is one lie of yours that’s easily enough dispensed with. And how many have been filed against me and Noroton that have come to nothing? Or shouldn’t I mention that because it makes you look like a grade A hypocrite. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 13:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::* What an utterly obnoxious, horrible attitude here, accusing me of lying and hypocrisy.  I won't bother looking at the diffs.  I'm probably right but who cares?  It's not even worth responding to this kind of trolling.  I see no point dealing further with this editor.  I should not have to deal with this nonsense as a cost of editing Wikipedia, and I will not.  If administrators will not ban or block this editor, the community ought to deal with him without administrative tools.  Revert any disruption, delete any incivility, and do not let him poison things here further.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 16:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

CENSEI's actions need checked. He's been blocked [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ACENSEI] for edit warring and disruption before and it's clear he has not learned. Not only does he need blocked, but a community ban needs serious consideration. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 19:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Let's give him one more chance. If he is blocked (for two weeks, as I have suggested) and continues to violate 3RR and BLP and NPA, then a ban should be considered, but now a block is appropriate. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::I've got only a little time, so I clicked on a couple of diffs above, and, sure enough, it's [[Bullshit|bullshit]]. The two I clicked on were edits that called Bernardine Dohrn a terrorist. She was a terrorist. The reliable sources are there, even in one of the edits cited (and the other was in a lead paragraph and didn't necessarily need a citation). It's not only bullshit, it's tiring bullshit. But I expect this will be over in four weeks. Just watch where you step. -- [[User:Noroton|Noroton]] ([[User talk:Noroton|talk]]) 23:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::[[Ziad Jarrah]] is a terrorist, nobody will argue that. Yet does his article state that he is? No. We don't use the word terrorist, it's as simple as that. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::: [[Eric Robert Rudolph|Run Run Rudolph]], its is simple as that. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 02:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Because that's the model stable article, right? Want me to go change it? '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 02:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::: Hmm, nearly every version of that article for the past 24 months describes him as a terrorist ..... I wonder whats different here ..... hmmm .... let me think about that one for a while. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I've got no dog in this fight, but to claim that Wikipedia doesn't "use the word terrorist" is just plain [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&ns0=1&redirs=0&search=terrorist&limit=500&offset=0 silly]. And for the record, [[Ziad Jarrah]] is in [[:Category:Lebanese terrorists]], a subcategory of the well-populated [[:Category:Terrorists by nationality]].  — <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Satori Son|<b>Satori Son</b>]]</span> 18:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why CENSEI isn't blocked as a username violation. Is there a reason he's allowed to edit under the name of a company??? [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 00:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

: Whodathunkit. I didnt even know CENSEI was the name of a company. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 01:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::He's a Navy guy, and in the Navy, CENSEI supposedly stands for "CENter for Systems Engineering and Integration". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 02:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Close, its a nickname someone gave me. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 03:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Yeh, that's a pretty common nickname. I used to get called that a lot before they settled on "Bugsy". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Okay, thanks Baseball Bugs. I didn't realise it had a naval meaning. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 00:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
One way to look at it is that Ayers and Dohrn "played" at being terrorists. Rudolph really was a terrorist. The former are university professors and the latter is a convicted murderer sitting a cell for life, so there ya are. Maybe it's only good luck that Ayers and Dohrn never killed anyone (that we know of). But they changed their ways, and Rudolph didn't. The worst you can say is that Ayers and Dohrn are ''former'' terrorists, which sounds rather silly if you think about it. "Terrorist" is a political term, so it can only be used if reliable sources use it. Wikipedians can't assign that label by themselves without violating POV policy. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

===Admin attention needed===
CENSEI has now filed a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Lulu_of_the_Lotus-Eaters_reported_by_User:CENSEI_.28Result:_.29 malicious 3RR report] against [[User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters|Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]]. Please, someone, anyone, review this. The 3RR report is laughable, with each edit being utterly unrelated to the next, and this is just after another 3RR against [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] resulted in sharp words for CENSEI. This needs to stop immediately. It's highly disruptive wikigaming. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:I closed it. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 02:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

: The last one filed against Lulu wasnt deemed malicious and it did have merit although it turned out to be stale. But by all means, I encourage any uninvolved admin to look into Lulu's edit warring. It almost seems as if editors like GoodDamon think that if they can whine loud enough about legitimate 3RR reports then they wil limmunize themselves from them .... well not on my watch ladies.  [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 02:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::The one you most recently posted looked more like a fishing trip.  I examined the diffs and saw no violation by Lulu.  And, as a side, I ''am'' an uninvolved administrator. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 02:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::CENSEI just fails to understand that continuous reversion of contentious BLP and POV material does not result in a 3RR violation, nor does removing POV material that CENSEI agrees with. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 03:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:What's the threshold before enough is enough?  The incivility is an unnecessary pox here - we're not here for our health, and having our efforts undermined and being repeatedly called names substantially degrades the experience of contributing to the encyclopedia.  That in turn hurts our productivity and makes the encyclopedia a worse one to read, not just a worse place to be.  I do not see any recent productive editing from this editor - other than deleting two negative statements about Dick Cheney he has devoted nearly all of his attention to fighting other editors, whether by launching administrative procedures, opposing others' administrative procedures, adding and edit warring over disputed content, or contentiously removing others' content.  Nowhere do I see an article cleaned up, expanded, improved, etc.  The editor is not even on good behavior now that he is under scrutiny here.  Lately he seems to be wikistalking perceived opponents, filing reports on them and reverting their edits.  Called on serial filing of questionable and/or bad faith 3RR reports he goes out and files another one one the same editor out of a grudge.  Questioned on civility, the taunts and insults only increase here on this page.  Questioned on edit warring, this editor unashamedly launches into one edit war after another on POV-related content while we are discussing the very issue.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Woods_Fund_of_Chicago&diff=prev&oldid=244052558][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Woods_Fund_of_Chicago&diff=prev&oldid=244048541][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bill_Ayers&diff=prev&oldid=243885788][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now&diff=prev&oldid=244046156] (this is just the past day or so - one can go as far back in the contribution history as one wants and find a similar pattern).  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 03:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::I'm really tempted to throw him to an admin with an itchy trigger finger because of his belligerence - he's contesting my rejection of his newest 3RR report for, what I can gather, no other reason than to get it reversed.  I'm not about to keel over to him. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 03:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::One of the two axioms about disruptive editors: "Why are you still messing with this guy?" The guy is begging for a lengthy block. Why deny him that? :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 03:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I prefer not to block people I'm talking with unless they're clearly trolling.  Appealing a decision is not trolling in and of itself. -<font color="32CD32">''[[User:Jéské Couriano|Jéské]]''</font>  <font color="4682B4"><sup>([[User talk:Jéské Couriano/Discussions|v^_^v]] [[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|Kacheek!]])</sup></font> 03:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::For what it's worth, I'm an optimist and hope that a warning will suffice. I can count on one hand the number of relatively long-term editors I've asked to have blocked, and still have room for five fingers. I think perhaps CENSEI's POV is enough of a factor that s/he should be encouraged to edit in other articles, but even though I'm the one who asked for admin attention, I'd really prefer blocking to be considered a last resort. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 04:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::I would be in favor of a lengthy topic ban ''at the very least'', per the [[Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation|probation]] for articles related to Obama. CENSEI's [[WP:DISRUPT|disruption]] continues at [[Bill Ayers]], with "tag team" edit-warring and incivility on the talk page. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User%3ACENSEI Previous blocks] have not curbed this editor's disruption. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 18:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::: Well considering that you have '''again''' violated 3RR on Bill Ayers (oh I know, they were all "blatant BLP violations"), I would argue that its you who need a time out for edit warring. I have made exactly '''2''' edits today, and none of the reveision. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 18:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*{{AN3|p}} [[Bill Ayers]], since it looks like edit warring between multiple users. --[[User:Slakr|<span style="color:teal;font-weight:bold;">slakr</span>]]<small><sup>\&nbsp;[[User talk:Slakr|talk]]&nbsp;/</sup></small> 19:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Please help us.  There is no need for article protection.  We have consensus on what to do about "terrorism" across these articles - we just came off a month-long RfC on the subject.  CENSEI is continuing to edit war across multiple articles, disregarding the consensus (or in his view, the lack of consensus, which produces the same result) not to associate various living people with terrorism.  He just got the [[Bill Ayers]] article fully-protected and is edit warring against the RfC result on the [[Weatherman (organization)]] as well.  I think we're done here.  The RfC is the last collaborative step in the dispute process, and he is not respecting the result.  CENSEI is not tenable as an editor on these articles, period.  After all of the above he simply will not stop.  It appears he will not quit until someone forces him to do so.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 20:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Would one editor saying that another editors edits is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Weatherman_(organization)&diff=244210844&oldid=244209565 nothing like taking a shit on policy and consensus] qualify as incivility? [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 22:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Considering he's referring to ''your'' edits, it sounds more like an apt description. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 22:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Whoa! That's gotta hurt! >:) Beware of crushing a CENSEItive ego. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 22:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::In a case like this, I'd rather be CENSEable. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 22:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That's a CENSEItional idea <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Bwilkins|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">'''BMW'''</font>]][[User talk:Bwilkins#top|<font style="color:#000000;background:white;">(drive)</font>]]</span></small> 23:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::: Hey look at that, everone gets to be an asshole around here! Neat-o! [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 23:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::It's good to see that through all this brouhaha, you've retained your CENSEI of humor. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 01:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::: And the best part about all of this is the concensus that the editors have been droning on about [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Weatherman_(organization)/Terrorism_RfC&curid=19191056&diff=244250839&oldid=243986843 is the exact poopsite of how it actually went down]! Imagine my suprise to see it taken out of context. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 23:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::...'Poopsite'? *cough* [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 02:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

===Admin attention ''still'' needed===
This editor continues to be highly disruptive. It appears the individual is now watching the contributions of a group of editors who have complained about his/her behavior and is reverting the edits they are making - often with misleading or rude edit summaries, and even [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMegapen&diff=244253045&oldid=244252130 removing warnings] left on other editors' talk pages. A topic ban is essential, and a lengthy block is desirable. Administrator apathy on this issue is perplexing. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 23:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:I don't think it's apathy, so much as exhaustion. This particular user keeps opening fishing 3RR reports and incidents on other editors, and those take a lot of work to clean up. Give it time, I don't doubt this will attract attention soon enough. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 11:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... I hate to bring this up, but CENSEI is trying to edit in a BLP violation in the Obama article again. Of note is his 2nd revert [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=244395356&oldid=244381387 here]; the edit summary reads ''"a school can be "Islamic" without being a madrassa, I quoted this strait from the article."'' But nothing of the sort appears in the cited news story, a ''debunking'' of the notion by [http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/ CNN] from early in 2007. CENSEI knows this is false, and yet has twice (so far) tried to insert the BLP violation as if the ref supports it. I'm sorry, but I'm beginning to hesitantly move in the direction of supporting a topic ban or block. This has to stop, and it has to stop now. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 16:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Aaand, he just hit 3RR. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 17:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Three reverts in 24 hours is the limit of acceptability.  If [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] reverts again, please report it at [[WP:3RR]].  [[User:Ioeth|Ioeth]] <sub>([[User_talk:Ioeth|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ioeth|contribs]] [[WP:FRIENDLY|friendly]])</sub> 17:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:: Again with the lies Damon, when will you learn that people can actually, you know, check into these things and dont have to rely solely on your word for them. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Will do. Thanks. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 17:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::3RR is the guideline, but if he's playing the "3 reverts every day" game, then that's against the rules, as it's "gaming the system". [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 17:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::: I would be more than happy to apply this standard to ''everyone'', but somehow, I dont think that would fly. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::The revisions are these.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=244379379][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=244395356][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=244402060]  Utter disregard for this AN/I, article probation, consensus, NPOV, etc.  Do we have consensus for a community ban from the Obama pages?  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 17:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::'''Agree''' - Regretfully. I really don't like supporting this. But we've moved beyond absurdity. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 17:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::(Now he's going to start hollering at us for CENSEIrship...) [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 17:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Without having to read the whole ''megillah'', I take it this CENSEI guy is trying to be a crusader for Rush Limbaugh and his relentless smears and fearmongering about Obama. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 18:12, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Let's see... Since the contributions could basically be described as RezkoAyersAlinskySecretMuslim(repeat x1000)... I'd say that's a fair summary. --[[User:GoodDamon|<span style="color:green;">Good</span>]][[User_talk:GoodDamon|Damon]] 18:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::: First let me apologize that I don’t worship at the altar of our new Obamessiah ... I am sure that if elected I will follow the law of the land and pay homage no less than 6 times a day, while facing 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, to our newly crowned demigod. Leaving that be for the moment, when have I mentioned Rezko, Alinsky or secret muslim? I know that lying about other editors has become second nature for you Damon, but do you have any links to support this? I wont hold my breath. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Sounds like CENSEI pretty much does that already, between Bush and Limbaugh, so he will have had plenty of practice. :) [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 23:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
(Marvellous. Clear proof of bias along with a veiled personal attack against a user. ''Why'' hasn't he been blocked yet?) [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 20:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::And introducing the claim that he went to a "Muslim" school, while citing an article that asserts it was not a radical school, while leaving out the part that it's also a ''public'' school, not a Muslim school as such, is a fairly sneaky way of trying to slip this smear in. Kind of like those who try to put "Jewish" in the lead of every public figure that's Jewish, even if there's nothing about their public life that has anything to do with Judaism. That character needs to go and take his right-wing POV somewhere else. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 18:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::: This is strait from the article ladies and gentilmen, 
:::::::: <blockquote>Obama lived in Indonesia as a child, from 1967 to 1971, '''with his mother and stepfather and has acknowledged attending a Muslim school''', but an aide said it was not a madrassa. Obama has noted in his two books, "Dreams From My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope," that '''he spent two years in a Muslim school''' and another two years in a Catholic school while living in Indonesia from age 6 to 10. [http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/]</blockquote>
:::::::: so lets dispense with the lies about what is an did not in the article please. Edit warring to exclude perfectly valid and well sourced material is just as bad as any bullshit (in this case) BLP violation. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::"Perfectly valid" and "well-sourced" does not necessarily mean it must be included. It must also pass [[WP:WEIGHT]] (particularly with this being a [[WP:SS|summary style]] article). There is also a question about whether or not it is even relevant, since Obama is a Christian (for a quarter of a century). -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 19:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::: Well, its good to see that you have dropped the BLP canard. As for relevancy, I'll deal with that on the talk page. 

:::::::::: As an aside, doesn’t anyone find it a little bit worrying that these editors would edit war so vigorously over '''one''' word in the article, which even by Scjessey's admission above, does not violate BLP or any other policy?  [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 19:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::Note that removing a BLP violation that has been debunked multiple times via bulletproof reliable sources on a high profile article that is under article probation (where YOU must get consensus to add) is not edit warring, it's adhering to the policies of wikipedia. Stirring the pot on these long dead and debunked "controversies" is disruptive. --[[User:Guyzero|guyzero]] | [[User talk:Guyzero|talk]] 19:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::::: As Scjessy said above, this aint a BLP issue, so you can put a fork in that one. [[User:CENSEI|CENSEI]] ([[User talk:CENSEI|talk]]) 20:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::::::I didn't say anything of the kind. You are misrepresenting what I said - another one of your disruptive tactics. --

[[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 21:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:He's been blocked for 31 hours. Now we can get some work done. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

===Irony===
Kinda ironic he is accusing others of whitewash, when he flat out [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_King&diff=next&oldid=244444281 removed] an entire section of sourced information from an article on a Republic congressman. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>X</sup></font></b>]]''' 21:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

===Blocked for 31 hrs for disruption===
CENSEI started going on yet another article ( [[Steve King]] ) after final warnings against disruption by myself and another administrator.  I've blocked him for 31 hrs.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 21:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Oh CENSEItional. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 21:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Now he is removing any comments from editors he doesn't like on his unblock request. Any editor can comment on an unblock request. He is attacking others and removing their responses. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Eh. Technically that's allowed. Just look at it this way: He's well on his way to digging himself so deep a hole, he'll get out faster by digging ''down''. [[User:HalfShadow|<font color="gray">'''Half'''</font>]][[User talk:HalfShadow|<font color="black">'''Shadow'''</font>]] 21:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::[[Mantle (geology)|Ouch.]] Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 21:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Regarding that issue - yes, he's allowed to remove those comments, and please don't beat up on him for doing so 8-)  We expect blocked users to be grumpy and vent.
:::::I am concerned that he's going to be further disruptive when the block expires, but [[WP:AGF]] applies and working cooperatively to try to get him to understand what he did that got him blocked is appropriate, which I'm trying to do.  [[User:Georgewilliamherbert|Georgewilliamherbert]] ([[User talk:Georgewilliamherbert|talk]]) 21:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== Harassment ==

{{NOINDEX}}
{{ombox |image=none |text= This section has been [[Template:Courtesy blanked#Courtesy blanking|blanked as a courtesy]]. {{#ifeq:|yes|The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee]]'s decision is still in effect, and can be found in the [{{fullurl:Wikipedia:{{PAGENAME}}|action=history}} page history].}}
}}

This section has been blanked as part of the compromise close at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ScienceApologist|this MfD]]; it is available in the history of [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]].

Signature/timestamp for archiving: [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
:''The following discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' <!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----
===Greasemonkey script===
I've been using this for a while now.
<pre>
//Greasemonkey can't seem to be able to access the embedded variables such as wgUserName
//unless you do this. This make it easy to tell if you're logged in, much simpler than 
//checking the edit token.
var cdata = eval(document.getElementsByTagName("script")[0].innerHTML);

//This punts you to the login page if you try to make an anon edit.
if(wgAction=="edit" && wgUserName==null) location.href = wgServer + wgScript +
    "?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=" + wgPageName;
</pre>
— [[User talk:CharlotteWebb|CharlotteWebb]] 13:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:I should remind everyone that there is already a big difference in the editing screen between a logged in user and not-logged in user which should hopefully alert you what's happening [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 17:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::It never alerts me. :( [[User:Protonk|Protonk]] ([[User talk:Protonk|talk]]) 18:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, I rarely fail to notice as my preferences are set to a different 'skin'.  People could try setting their preferences to a different skin (appearance of the screen). [[User:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b>]] [[User talk:Sticky Parkin|<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b>]] 22:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:Here's my version: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/7209<!---->.  It disables the save button if you're not logged in.  —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 23:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::Use unsafeWindow. --[[User:Slakr|<span style="color:teal;font-weight:bold;">slakr</span>]]<small><sup>\&nbsp;[[User talk:Slakr|talk]]&nbsp;/</sup></small> 20:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
----
:''The above discussion is preserved as an [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|archive]].  <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive bottom --></div>

== Gerry Ashton being disruptive ==

User [[User:Gerry_Ashton|Gerry Ashton]] is being disruptive to make a point. [[Wikipedia_talk:Mosnum#Dueling_proposals|Here]] on [[WT:MOSNUM]], there is a debate about bringing the formatting of numbers on some of Wikipedia’s mathematics articles into conformance with the rest of Wikipedia’s articles on our technical and applied mathematics articles. The details of the dispute are arcane, but it essentially is debate over delmiting long numbers so they can be parsed easily, such as {{val|2.718281828}}.

The tone of Gerry’s tenor in the debate on WT:MOSNUM has escalated this morning so he hauled off and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Greg_L&oldid=244191721#TfD_nomination_of_Template:Val posted these two notices] on my talk page announcing that he was nominating two templates for deletion.

You should know that the {val} template was extensively discussed long ago on MOSNUM ([[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94#Grouping_of_digits_after_the_decimal_point_.28next_attempt.29|here on Archive 94]]) and was further discussed on WT:MOS ([[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_97#Exponential_notation|here on Archive 97]]). In both cases, there was a broad-based consensus that the envisioned template {{tl|delimitnum}} was a good and it was well-received by the community. This all transpired in February of this year. The only thoroughly disaffected editor who opposed the template was Gerry ([[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94#Broader_consensus_needed|here on MOSNUM Archive 94]]). He hated the idea and tried to block it with the suggestion that a consensus should also have to be obtained on WT:MOS. Well, a while later—as I mentioned above—that is precisely what eventually happened; I later noticed an issue there about the formatting of scientific notation and told them of what had been discussed on WT:MOSNUM. We had a great discussion that resulted in a tweak to the proposed template. The clear consensus in ''both'' venues was that it was a good idea.

Note: The {{tl|delimitnum}} template never worked well for long strings and much greater favor was found with a {{tl|val}} template created by [[User:SkyLined|SkyLined]]. The {val} template is used in a wide variety of Wikipedia’s articles and is used extensively on [[Kilogram]], which just received GA status. The deletion of {val} would be terribly disruptive. The template can also be used to create values in what is known as “concise form” like ''h''&nbsp;=&nbsp;{{val|6.62606896|(33)|e=-34|u=[[Joule-second|J·s]]}}. This is the same, SI-compliant way the NIST shows the value ([http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?h|search_for=universal_in! see example]). We need this tool.

Now Gerry, who has long opposed these templates (he wrote ''“I oppose this proposal on the grounds that it is a bastard.”''&thinsp;) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=191681309&oldid=191675443] knows full well that these templates were well-received in the community and that the templates—particularly {val}—are used extensively in Wikipedia’s articles. This is simply [[Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point|disrupting Wikipedia to make a point]]. May I ask your assistance in this manner. The nominations are as follows:

* [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_October_9#Template:Val|Here for val]] and…
* [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_October_9#Template:Delimitnum|Here for delimitnum]]

I ask that Gerry be sanctioned for this move. He knew full well this move would be highly disruptive. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 20:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:I did not delete anything, I merely suggested what I consider to be the best course of action. Now that the Val template is being debated, I think it should be done away with before this bad idea spreads to more articles. --[[User:Gerry Ashton|Gerry Ashton]] ([[User talk:Gerry Ashton|talk]]) 20:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:* You didn’t “*merely* suggest” anything. All the articles that use these templates now have [[Kilogram#Importance_of_the_kilogram|little notices imbedded in them]] advising that the templates they rely upon are in peril of being deleted. And this stunt is ''not'' how would calls for debate; we already ''were'' debating a related issue [[Wikipedia_talk:Mosnum#Proposal_to_delimit_long_numeric_strings_in_mathematics_articles_every_five_digits|here]] on WT:MOSNUM. You just thought you’d up the temperature a little on a long-term annoyance to you.<p>The record of how well received these templates are in the community is clear, I’ve cited the links above. There is clearly a general consensus on this and [[User:SkyLined|SkyLined]] put a lot of effort into the {{tl|val}} template to make sure it was in conformance with that consensus decision. There is no debate; only an editor who disagreed with the consensus view, got angry this morning, and went out of his way to disrupt Wikipedia.<p>This move is nothing but a pure case of [[WP:POINT]]. This goes well beyond the bounds of what could remotely be considered as constructive and was intended to be purposely disruptive. I ask that Gerry be sanctioned for this. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 21:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*Administrators should be aware of the latest eruption of a long debate [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Delimiting_numbers] here at [[WP:MOSNUM]]. I have suggested mediation on that debate, and I shall do so to the two users named here as well. I don't think this is an administrative matter for the moment, although administrators can easily see for themselves the tone of the debate over this and related issues. [[User:Physchim62|Physchim62]] [[User talk:Physchim62|(talk)]] 21:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:* Administrator action (sanctions) are ''certainly'' indicated here. The ongoing debate was over another issue. This stunt was intended only to be disruptive. Gerry should be blocked for at least 48 hours for this stunt. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 21:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

::*I'm afraid I partially agree with Greg.  ''Both'' of them have been disruptive in more than one discussion at [[WT:MOSNUM]], <s>but I don't think sanctions should be considered,</s> including pre-emptive editing of templates with general approval (if not a full consensus).  But I don't think that administrative sanctions should be considered.
::*:Yet.  — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]]  [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 21:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

:::* I don’t think we can let Gerry get off scot-free on this. The {{tl|val}} template (at that time known only as {{tl|delimitnum}} had been extensively discussed and well received on both WT:MOSNUM and WT:MOS ([[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94#Grouping_of_digits_after_the_decimal_point_.28next_attempt.29|here]] and [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_97#Exponential_notation|here]]). Gerry made his opinions known back in February ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AManual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29&diff=191681309&oldid=191675443] and [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_94#Broader_consensus_needed|here]]) but his arguments failed to gain any traction with the other editors. Gerry full-well knew this. The [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Delimiting_numbers|current debate]] on WT:MOSNUM regards a different issue (what to do with some math articles that do things their own way). His response, nominating two templates for deletion knowing full well they had broad community support (he was there debating it at the time), was intended to be at least disruptive today, and, had it succeeded, would have been a form of vandalism. I think at least a 24-hour block is in order here.  <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 22:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

My view is that the Val and Delimitnum templates were an interesting exploration as to what could be done. I think there were fewer than 10 editors following the discussion, two of which were not satisfied with the direction. Although many of the editors seemed pleased with the progress, they still have [[Template talk:Val#val template has a serious flaw| problems]] which, in my view, make them unsuitable for anything but experimental use. Since the use of these templates in actual articles seems to be spreading (although still fairly small), I believe it is necessary to stop them before they become a ''fait acompli'' that can, unless editors carefully inspect each use, introduce numerical errors (if the Val talk page is correct).

I also think the fact that MOSNUM (the guideline, not the talk page) was never edited to allow grouping digits to the right of the decimal is evidence that the temlate does not have wide acceptance. --[[User:Gerry Ashton|Gerry Ashton]] ([[User talk:Gerry Ashton|talk]]) 22:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

* I appears Gerry is attempting to deflect the discussion away from his conduct. That is what ANI’s are for—not to debate atomic-level details of the formatting of numbers. Like [[User:Dweller|Dweller]] once wrote: ''“What consenting mathematicians get up to behind closed doors is their business, but please don't do it in public.”''<p>There were many editors back in February who participated in the discussion about the two templates Gerry doesn’t like. It has been half a year since then and most of these editors have since lost track of the issue; this isn’t unusual. That there would be only a few still thinking about it now—particularly someone who strenuously objected to it in the first place—isn’t surprising. But there are rules of conduct here and under no circumstances are editors to be intentionally disruptive. We certainly can’t permit editors to use disruptive stunts to re-open debate on an issue that was thoroughly discussed, achieved broad consensus to be made, and directly resulted in a Bugzilla request of the developers to produce the special parsing functions to enable the template. This is simply an intentional disregard of the consensus view that consumes other Wikipedians’ time and effort. It is simply [[WP:POINT|disrupting Wikipedia to make a point]]. I think at least a 24-hour block is in order here. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 23:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
**Well, this is likely to go one of three ways: (1) The topic is so obscure that no-one cares and no-one else will comment here on it, so you won't get enough support for a block (which you seem to have asked for at the end of each of your four posts here so far - he won't get blocked merely because you keep asking for it); (2) Lots of people will comment and support a block for nominating two templates for deletion (unlikely, in my opinion); (3) Lots of people will comment and reject the notion that we should be blocking for making nominations at XfDs (deletion debates). My opinion is that XfDs get a ''different'' audience to that found at [[WT:MOS]] and [[WT:MOSNUM]], and are a legitimate alternative opinion. Not to be done frivilously, of course, but not to be rejected out-of-hand either. [[WP:CCC]] as well - those debates you pointed out were in February and March, 7-8 months ago. It ''can'' be extremely annoying when someone drags the discussion to an XfD venue, but sometimes you have to grit your teeth and bear it. If the arguments for keeping are good enough, they should work anywhere, regardless of the discussion venue (well, in principle at least). One exception, I think, is when you have a ''pattern'' of nominations and re-nominations, either within the same subject area, or of the same templates. Even then, though, you will have to have a very good case. I don't think you have enough for a block here. <small>(Disclosure - I've been active on WT:MOSNUM recently, over the date linking issue, so I'm peripherally aware of both Greg and Gerry, and recently had a dispute with Greg. Regardless, I hope I've managed to make an objective response here. Since posting this, I've also commented at one of the TfDs [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_October_9&diff=244478646&oldid=244444208 here])</small> [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 00:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

== Off-wiki harassment by [[User:ScotBartolo]] ==

{{resolved}}
{{user|Scotbartolo}}

Recently, I speedy-deleted [[Clikatat ikatowi]] and [[Clikatat Ikatowi]] (only difference is in caps) under [[WP:CSD#A7|CSD A7]] (unremarkable band).  Yesterday morning, I started receiving harassing emails from [[User:Scotbartolo]] (the only contributor to the band article) telling me that he "can't believe" I deleted his article, calling me some rather nasty names, accusing me of abusing my power as an administrator, and asking me if I work full-time at Wikipedia (which I obviously do not).  He also seems to believe that I am a different person that he's had some sort of past trouble with.

I asked him to address me in my Talk page instead of sending me off-wiki emails, and he replied with "I'll contact you however I please."  (This harassment continued on into this morning as well.)

Below is the email exchange I had with this user, with name and address specifics censored:

<blockquote>
''emails redacted per [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova#Removal of private correspondence]]. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 00:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)''
</blockquote>

In my opinion, this behavior is unacceptable.  What say you? &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 15:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:Started with a block and disabled his e-mail...unfortunately he already has your e-mail address from your response. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 15:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::That's okay - I'll deal with that.  Thanks. &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 15:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Although he was brilliant enough to tell you who he was and where he was from and then continued e-mailing you after you told him to stop...which means if he keeps it up, I'd give his ISP a call. --[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 16:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::That's how admins should deal with harassers. Good job! [[User:AdjustShift|AdjustShift]] ([[User talk:AdjustShift|talk]]) 16:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::Keep in mind that the sender owns the "copyright" to those e-mails, so you might hear from his lawyer. Meanwhile, since he's obviously an idiot, maybe you could ask him what his street address is, telling him that you want to visit and personally explain things. Then see if he's surprised when the men in the clean white coats turn up at his door instead, coming to take him away, ha-ha! [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 16:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

::::::If he becomes particularly troublesome, I'll escalate it to his ISP, but I doubt it'll be necessary.  I already told him after his most recent message that I'd be sending further messages from him to my spam filter, so I expect I might get one or two more angry messages from him that I won't need to pay attention to.  He can, of course, contest his block, but I doubt he will.  It's really nothing more than a temper tantrum. :) &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 17:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

: The guy seems like a bit unpleasant but a bit of research suggests that the band may be notable. They've been [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/arts/music/14foal.html?fta=y mentioned in the New York Times] and google news shows a few  mentions. [[User:JoshuaZ|JoshuaZ]] ([[User talk:JoshuaZ|talk]]) 19:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::That's all fine and good.  The CSD criterion is about ''assertion'' of notability, and the article at the time did not satisfactorily assert (at least, in my opinion) the band's notability.  I told the user via email that if he could address the notability issue, he was welcome to recreate the article, and I did not try to discourage him in any way from doing that (except to point out that he had a potential [[WP:COI]] since he was one of the band's members).  At that point, though, it was pretty obvious that he was more interested in telling me where I could stick it than working constructively, so it's probably a moot point anyway. &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 20:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I personally like Joshua's pre-redaction description instead...--[[User:Smashville|'''Smashville''']][[User Talk:Smashville|<sup style="color:#03F">talk</sup>]] 20:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::<s>Not sure I follow.  Are you saying that I should have not deleted the page? &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 20:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)</s>
::::Ohhh, I see. :)  Note to self: Scan the history before replying.  Yes, I'll agree to that! &mdash; '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' ([[User talk:KieferSkunk|talk]]) &mdash; 20:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Great Sphinx]] ==

Please see [[User_talk:Lifebaka#User:Great_Sphinx|this]]. Apparently, I'm an "evil" editor. It's almost certainly the same user as [[User:Puttyschool]], but I'd like someone to verify this. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 18:52, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:I have started a checkuser case: [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Puttyschool]] based on the evidence provided here and by looking at the contribs history of the involved users.  Please await the results of that checkuser.  --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 19:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Thanks. I'll keep make sure my eye on it. I won't be surprised if any more issues happen soon, though. [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 19:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::The RFCU came back as inconclusive, which does not disprove the connection between the two accounts.  If the editing patterns between the Great Sphinx continue to show a strong correlation to prior edits to the article, then the [[WP:DUCK|duck test]] should still be enough to block.  If you think there is enough evidence, then please be ready with comparative difs to show so. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 00:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::::OK, so if there's any further disruption, I should probably notify the user and contact someone immediately. Should be enough, right? [[User:Troy 07|~ Troy]] ([[User talk:Troy 07|talk]]) 01:12, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

== [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]]'s threats and [[User:Elonka|Elonka]]'s [[WP:OUTING]] ==

{{NOINDEX}}
{{ombox |image=none |text= This section has been [[Template:Courtesy blanked#Courtesy blanking|blanked as a courtesy]]. {{#ifeq:|yes|The [[Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration Committee]]'s decision is still in effect, and can be found in the [{{fullurl:Wikipedia:{{PAGENAME}}|action=history}} page history].}}
}}

This section has been blanked as part of the compromise close at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/ScienceApologist|this MfD]]; it is available in the history of [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]].

Signature/timestamp for archiving: [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

== Review for possible incivility, assumption of bad faith, etc. ==

{{user|Alansohn}}

The user is subject to [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Footnoted_quotes#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions|these editing restrictions]] for one year.  I believe in [[User_talk:Kbdank71#Unexplained_CfD_closes_from_October_4|this exchange today]], he crossed the line into incivility, assumptions of bad faith, abuse of process, and trolling.  This is recurring conduct&mdash;accusing those who disagree with him of misconduct, and misrepresenting their comments or positions; see also this related [[Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2008_October_10#Category:Fictional_obsessive-compulsives|DRV]], and [[User_talk:Kbdank71#Your_close_of_Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion.2FLog.2F2008_September_30.23Category:Deaths_by_age|this exchange]].  Please review.  Thanks, [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 20:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:I wouldn't block on that incident alone, but I would merely warn and say that any further infringement on his restrictions will result in a block. Erik the [[User:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:red;">Red</span>]] 2 <small>[[User talk:Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:green;">~~</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Erik the Red 2|<span style="color:blue;">~~</span>]]</small> 20:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::Whether a warning or block is merited, I've been too involved in arguments with him recently for me to be the proper one to do it; a neutral observer should step in, evaluate his conduct, and take steps accordingly.  [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 20:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Let me suggest that the ArbCom's editing restrictions on Alansohn would mean that any block would not be for "that incident alone" since they follow from past acts judged by ArbCom.  The restrictions are plainly a warning to stop wasting the community's time and goodwill in the future, has the warning been heeded or not?   While I see wikilawyering and mild abuse of process (and wilfull wasting of other editors time) in the two threads on Kbdank71's talk page, I don't see "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith" per se, which is what the ArbCom restrictions specified, but neither to I see reformed conduct, IMHO. [[User:Pete.Hurd|Pete.Hurd]] ([[User talk:Pete.Hurd|talk]]) 22:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::FYI: [[User talk:Alansohn#Blocked]].  [[User:Postdlf|Postdlf]] ([[User talk:Postdlf|talk]]) 22:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::I think the block was an overreaction based on what I have read - exchanges often get heated in deletion debates and this is no more heated than average. However, anyone who knows me knows that as an inclusionist my view here is not impartial. Cheers, [[User:Casliber|Casliber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 02:14, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

== To become notable ==

{{resolved|No admin action required.}}
What can I do to become notable enough for an article?  The only requirement is it can't be expensive, and it has to be something I can accomplish overnight.  Thanks!! [[Special:Contributions/75.40.204.26|75.40.204.26]] ([[User talk:75.40.204.26|talk]]) 00:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:See [[WP:N|our notability guideline]]; see also our [[WP:V|verifiability policy]]; see also our guideline about [[WP:AUTO|autobiographies]]. I strongly suggest you ''don't'' do anything to make you "notable". -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:Jumping off the IDS Tower might work. Especially if you hit the MTM statue. So look before you leap. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 00:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::Is there any specific Wikipedia administrative action you are requesting in this regard?  Given the above two responses, I'm not sure I want to know.[[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 00:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
:::This is really the wrong place for such a question, so I'll close this thread as resolved. If the user wants more help, they can use the help desk, or someone's talk page. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
== HornetMan16 ==

{{resolved|Currently no consensus to lift the ban.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 02:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)}}
I would now like to direct the [[WP:ADMIN|administrator's]] of Wikipedia to [[User:ChristianMan16]], who is kinda requesting a unblock, since he is banned from the community I think the best thing is to come here. ChristianMan to me (and the stuff I have seen from the past) has changed, and I know some administrator's and user's on this Wiki and the simple English Wikipedia would agree with me, I would now like the community to see his contribution's on the Simple English Wiki pedia [http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/ChristianMan16 here]. Does this look like a kid who is wanting to cause trouble? To me no! this looks like a person (who is now a grown man). Now to clarify HM has not socked in almost a year, and I'm by now means trying to belittle his previous  action's, but I do think it's time to let him back in. Some feedback please. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 22:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:Big no-no. Also, he has created socks in this past year. I've been here since July 2007, and I've seen some socks since then. <span style="font-family: tahoma">'''[[User:iMatthew|<span style="color:#900">iMa</span><span style="color:#090">tth</span><span style="color:#4682b4">ew</span>]] ([[User talk:IMatthew|talk]])'''</span> 23:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
::Sorry i mint this year and yes he did in January, but I think I even speak for Alison when I say that he deserves another chance. And iMatthew I think your speaking out of spite. Can somebody else please way in on the matter. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 23:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Steelerfan, [[WP:AGF|IMatthew is here to help]]. Please don't accuse him of acting out of spite unless you have [[WP:DIFF|proof]]. And if anyone's going to speak for Alison, I think she can do that perfectly well herself. You've raised the subject here; now let people debate it.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 23:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
That, and Steelerfan - you're getting to defensive. You started a threat at [[WT:PW]] that had nothing to do with professional wrestling, only a former member. And when somebody stepped in an was bold enough to remove it, you [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AScorpion0422&diff=243547980&oldid=243547861 got defensive] and accused him. You complained about WP:PW having too much drama, and I agree with you there - but I left the project, and I'm not encouraging it, but if you don't like WP:PW's drama, it may not be the project for you. <span style="font-family: tahoma">'''[[User:iMatthew|<span style="color:#900">iMa</span><span style="color:#090">tth</span><span style="color:#4682b4">ew</span>]] ([[User talk:IMatthew|talk]])'''</span> 00:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I oppose the unban. Just a glance at the Simple wiki contributions tells me that this person isn't ready to return here. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

:At iMatt. your right I just don't want a user who has been punished enough for his wrong doing's to be blocked any longer. Just give him ONE MORE CHANCE. I'll take the heat if something happens. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 00:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Too many "one more chance"s. Little to gain by unbanning him. Much to risk by unbanning him. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me a dozen times, and, well...you get the point. [[User:GaryColemanFan|GaryColemanFan]] ([[User talk:GaryColemanFan|talk]]) 00:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
* Oppose per the above - he's not ready to come back. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 00:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

* As one of the checkusers involved in dealing with him in the past, and in working with him over the past year on other wikis, I would <s>'''conditionally support'''</s> an unban providing he's placed with a suitable mentor. He's come on a ''lot'' since he was banned from the project here but I still have concerns over his knowledge of image copyrights, etc. A three-month mentorship would work wonders here and he could return to being a productive member of [[WP:PW]]. I'll also be willing to help where I can if he's allowed return. Note: there were a series of sockpuppet accounts made during the year which checkuser revealed were {{unrelated}} to Hornetman16/Christianman16 - indeed, they were created to just get the guy in trouble and seal his fate here on enwiki. They should, of course, be discounted. I can provide details if needs be - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 01:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
** Nevermind. I just saw the diffs to the canvassing on Simple :( - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 07:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

*Nope, not needed. 25% of his edits are to his userspace on simple. Very myspacey. A user who was previously very disruptive, needs to show stellar work that would be of great benefit to enWP before he could be considered reformed. Not seeing that yet.  [[User:Viridae|Viridae]][[User talk:Viridae|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 04:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*Strong oppose per above as well as [http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Simple_talk&diff=prev&oldid=1095560 this]. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 05:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*I don't think this is a good idea, yet. He's caused a lot of trouble in his time, and I don't think I can quite forgive him for it yet. --[[User:Deskana|Deskana]] <small>[[User talk:Deskana|(talk)]]</small> 06:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*'''Previous unban appeal: [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive132#Request_for_review_of_User:Hornetman16.27s_community_ban|March 2008]]'''. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 06:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*Based on his Simple English Wikipedia contributions it's pretty clear he's not going to benefit this project any more than he benefits that one. [[User:Giggy|Giggy]] ([[User talk:Giggy|talk]]) 07:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:Now I've never involved myself in a discussion here, but today I have something on my mind that might help. Today in modern society you are told to do the right thing. Now if you do the wrong thing you are punished. You are also looked down on. Either it be a extremely bad thing or small. Lets look at a crime of a man by the name of [[Seung-Hui Cho]]. In no way should he be forgiven of his acts ever even if he was still alive. If he was sorry for them or was not in the right state of mind he should still not be forgiven, but only if he had not planned them. If had just thought of it that day maybe. I forgive the [[Chris Benoit]] [[Chris Benoit double murder and suicide|stuff]], that was an act off the top of his head. Now look at those two amazing crimes. Why is it that because someone vandalized a few pages or made a few socks; crap maybe he did both I wasn't around or paying attention when they happened; is looked upon as if he was as bad as Cho. I see people like IMatthew, who I have nothing against, look at people who do these type of things, and act as if they should never get another chance; that is how I see you look at it, I could be wrong. If he wanted to vandalize pages he could just go to the other wikipedias and vandalize there, but from what I've seen he isn't doing that. Now I've seen people who should be blocked because all they did was vandalize. I feel everyone should have a second chance. Is making another account that bad? Not in my mind. Why is it that everyone looks at this type of stuff as if it was as bad as murder or rape. It isn't a crime. Maybe this guy should be given a chance. If he screws up and does the same stuff then it was a mistake. It isn't going to destroy wikiedia. And remember this is coming from someone who has been blocked before. It isn't fun and pisses you off. Also about benefit stuff. Is Wikipedia a company? Are we all looking to make this the greatest web site known to man? We have users who come on here and do nothing but whine and complain (see every WWE and TNA ppv from 2008) about stuff, but because this guy went down the wrong path on here he shouldn't be given a chance because he isn't writing articles to an amazing extent or participating in every discussion on the site, he doesn't benefit English Wikipedia. Doesn't that sound a bit childish? Are our standards too high?--[[User:Wrestlinglover|<span style="color:red;">'''Will'''</span>]][[User talk:Wrestlinglover|<span style="color:blue;">'''C'''</span>]] 08:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Wrestlinglover, no that doesn't help at all. Your talk of your own personal philosophy of forgiveness and punishment of rapists and murderers is highly insensitive and offensive to ''real'' victims of crime. And it's also ludicrous. Please point out one rapist or murderer who is punished by banning from a Wikimedia project. Ridiculous. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC) Also, you might like to know that no, we're not here to "make this the greatest web site known to man". We're here to build an encyclopedia and anything that gets in the way of doing that is an unnecessary distraction. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
*I find the comparison to Cho completely irrelevant, and the implication that Hornetman is treated here like a rapist or murderer completely inappropriate. Everything else you say is neither here nor there and doesn't convince me at all to unblock Hornetman16. Keep him banned.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 09:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*Hello there. I mainly edit on Simple English Wikipedia, so my comments are about the user "ChristianMan16" there. To my knolwedge, the user has made good contributions to mainspace ([http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special%3AContributions&contribs=user&target=ChristianMan16&namespace=0&year=&month=-1 list of his mainspace contribs on SEWP]), though he is sometimes focused on User space and project-specific talk pages. I do not recall having problems with his contributions on Simple English Wikipedia. Please note that Simple English Wikipedia allows multiple accounts per user, except for voting purposes. (I am not aware of his having multiple accounts on Simple though) For this reason I would not see a problem with letting him contribute to the English Wikipedia again. All the best. --[[User:Eptalon|Eptalon]] ([[User talk:Eptalon|talk]]) 09:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

*I was not active when this all happened, so I can only speak about what I see now. His simple contributions look okay and I would not even see the aforementioned diff as canvassing, as it also allows people to come here and !vote against him. I'd say '''unban on probation''' - if he is unbanned, he will be watched by dozens of editors and admins anyway. Let him back, if he does one false step, reban him instantly without discussion. Worth a try and we got nothing to lose really. We just have to avoid long discussions if he does a false step. '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 10:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

*Oppose per above.  Far too many chances, and blew all of them sky-high.  The fact he actually stalked Allie across several wikis is a deal-breaker for me. [[User:Blueboy96|Blueboy]][[User talk:Blueboy96|96]] 12:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
** 'Stalked' is a bit of a strong term, IMO. He was just being a bit impatient - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 14:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
***He's what, 12 years old? Agree with Allie, stalked is way over the top. I very much doubt Allie lives in fear of him and his "stalking". -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 16:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
****Is he 12-years-old though? If so, why does the opening post say that he's now a "grown man"? [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Direct quote from the subject: Tell them that they look at my past and say "nope" not look at the changes I've made in myself and the possibility of being a wonderful editor. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 16:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

*Oppose an unconditional unblock. SteelersFan, I would suggest waiting until next year, and then propose an unblock involving probation. [[User:PhilKnight|PhilKnight]] ([[User talk:PhilKnight|talk]]) 16:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
*Oppose an unblock at this point. I'm not particularly bothered by the one canvassing edit on Simple Wikipedia, but his other recent contributions there (particularly his retirement) lead me to conclude that he is unlikely to be a stable and productive editor on this project. Should note that I received an e-mail notifying me of this thread, based on my participation in the previous thread on the subject (where, if I recall, I also opposed his unbannination). [[User:Avruch|<strong style="color:#000;background:#fff;border:0px solid #000">Avruch</strong>]][[User talk:Avruch|<sup><strong style="color:#000;background:#fff;border:0px solid #000">  T  </strong></sup>]] 18:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

*Oppose unban. I don't really care about what happened a year ago as a year is very long time on Wikipedia and it's plenty of time to grow up and mature. However, having looked through his Simple contributions I think he's still very immature and I think overturning the ban at this point would be a bad idea. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC) And after the feedback he got about him canvasing on Simple for support on this WP ANI discusion, he goes and asks someone else to do that canvasing for him! [http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AEptalon&diff=1098225&oldid=1096459] This dude just doesn't get it. I think either this discussion should be closed and archived by an uninvolved admin as it is now hopelessly corrupted by the user's actions or Simple user's comments need to be discounted. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

===Proposal===
Let me try something here. Now I have had experience with him and heard from others about his past, some of which I never saw (because I wasn't a registered user yet). I can't think of why I am doing this, but if you all approve, I'd be willing to engage in a 1-month long mentorship program with hum. If the community would like, I would be willing to mentor him for a month, to see whether he has changed or not, and whether he should be aloud to stay here or not. Should he mess up at all, even once - he'd be re-banned, but should he do well and become a constructive editor, he may stay.

Again, I'm not sure If I myself believe he deserves this, but if the community agrees to those terms, I'd be willing to offer mentorship. <span style="font-family: tahoma">'''[[User:iMatthew|<span style="color:#900">iMa</span><span style="color:#090">tth</span><span style="color:#4682b4">ew</span>]] ([[User talk:IMatthew|talk]])'''</span> 18:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:I probably support that. Unlike the most of you, I do indeed trust him. I am an administrator on the [[:simple:|Simple English Wikipedia]], where Hornetman (ChristianMan16) is an active contributor and trusted editor. He works hard there, and is basically the only wrestling-contributor on there, and I think he should be given a chance to return here, even if that is only by mentorship. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 19:14, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::I support as well.  HM/CM16 is a worthwhile contributor at SEWP. [[User:Shapiros10|<font color="blue">'''Sam'''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Shapiros10|<font color="red">'''Blab'''</font>]]</sup> 19:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
:::The problem was never his work ethic. He "worked hard" here on enwiki as well. But as you say, he's basically the only contributor to wrestling articles there. He runs into a lot less resistance on simple, which is what always set him off. Just look over on simple wikipedia, at his complete inability to deal with this situation in a rational manner. No, I think simple wikipedia is a better place for him, where he's given something of a wider berth than on enwiki. I'm pretty sure he won't be able to deal with the tight leash he'd be on, if he'd return to enwiki.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 20:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, what have we got to lose? He knows apparently that he has no right to expect an un-banning anytime at all. We allow him to return on our terms (I think iMatthew's proposal is sound) and if he does not want it, he can decline it. And if he does accept it and then breaks it, we can tighten the leash to strangle him, to stay within the metaphor. No matter what happens, there is nothing to lose. If he starts again what lead to his ban, then he will be instantly re-banned. So, again, imho we have got nothing to lose from unbanning him with strict probation. '''[[User:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #AC0000">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="font-variant:small-caps; color: #1F3F53">Why</span>]]''' 22:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

: On reflection, I'd support that, too. He's not a bad guy and some of the stuff he did (and it's ancient history in WikiYears™) was nothing compared to some folks who have been rehabilitated. I'll personally put a bunch of time and effort into keeping him safe and out of trouble if he's unblocked. He's been kinda holding out for this for some time and he's ''really'' been trying hard. Let's just cut him a ''little'' slack here, folks ... - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 20:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose.  I don't think he has enough experience yet. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 22:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


Yup, good idea. We should try hard to get him to stay as close to article space as possible. I'd be happy to offer some mentorship to him as well, and I'd start off by working on a few articles with him. He needs to be eased back in slowly. '''[[User:Ryan Postlethwaite|<span style="color:green;">Ryan</span> <span style="color:purple;">Postlethwaite</span>]]<sup>See [[Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite|the mess I've created]] or [[User talk:Ryan Postlethwaite|let's have banter]]</sup>''' 10:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

===No, no, never===
[http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Simple_talk#I.27m_retiring See this].

''"I'm retiring since No one really cares. I started editing regularly here to improve the wrestling articles here and most importantly to me rub it in enWP's face that I could change..I have spent a year here and nothings changed...everyone still HATES me on enWP. I've really done nothing more than waste my time here....it makes me cry looking at those comments. I was looking forward to possibly getting a 18th birthday present of unbannishment but instead I got spat in my face. I figure I better retire here while I'm ahead.''"

Strongly oppose any mentoring or anything after that. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 23:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Daniel, I think he was just saying that because he got his hopes up and then it looked like all hope was over, He's just told me that he likes the idea. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 00:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:I care little. We should never be letting this immature editor back. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 00:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::Daniel... you already stated your opinion above. Is it really necessary to rub it in? Just trying to keep the heat down. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::What would it take from CM back in now? <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 00:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I don't think there is anything. He's shown himself totally unsuitable to fitting in with the community. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 00:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Direct quote from CM: Tell Daniel he's got a bad attitude. Now Alison thinks he could come back, and she's the blocking admin and has been in contact with him the most recently and even she agrees he's changed. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 00:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::Tell Hornetman16 he has a bad attitude, as proven by the fact he was banned from the English Wikipedia. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 00:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Daniel, I wouldn't disagree with him much, honestly. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 02:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::And for full disclosure, you're another editor from Simple. I'm seeing a pattern emerging. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::My goodness, Daniel, I'm not just "another editor from Simple." I am an administrator there and an active user here. By this "pattern," you mean the overtaking over Simple Wikipedia? For goodness sakes. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 02:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Allowing sockpuppeteers to return and edit legitimately only serves to degrade other legitimate users, and it also weakens the community spirit and determination to fight vandalism of all sorts from all fronts. Call me prejudiced, but I '''adamantly refuse''' to be associated with this sockpuppeteer. To me, he will always be a vandal, never a real user. Once bitten, twice shy. No matter what he does on other encyclopedias, this user is not a contributing user. Never was, certainly not now, and never will be. [[User:Arbiteroftruth|Arbiteroftruth]] ([[User talk:Arbiteroftruth|talk]]) 15:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I hate to have to say this, but Simple is a project of about 20-something mostly (not all) disaffected and banned EN users who are trying to get unbanned here, so being an admin there really doesn't mean much here. Also, in the spirit of "admin = no big deal", your being an admin there is irrelevant; you ''are'' "just another editor from Simple," just as Daniel is "just another editor from EN WP" (and frequently gets told that whenever he posts to Simple). [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 08:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)  
:::::I'm going to have to strongly disagree with that characterization.  The notion that "most users" on Simple are banned from the English Wikipedia is greatly overexaggerated.  As far as I know, Jonas D. Rand (Ionas68824), ChristianMan16 (Hornetman16), ShockingHawk/StaticFalcon (ThePageChanger), and SwirlBoy39 (was later unbanned) are frequent Simple users banned on en.  Possibly more.  On the other hand, everyone else is in good standing on en: Giggy, Tholly, Kennedy, American Eagle, RyanCross, Creol, Eptalon, The Rambling Man (b'crat and admin on en), Isis (Isis4563 on en), Cassandra (??? on en), Majorly, Gwib, Fr33kman, Swatjester, Chenzw, and Tdxiang, from just the "most active" list.  That's 16/19 unbanned en users. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 17:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Point taken, Hb, but "mostly (not all) disaffected and banned EN users" is very different to "Most users on Simple are banned from the English Wikipedia". Some of the people you mention ARE disaffected here (heck, I sometimes count myself as a disaffected EN user) and some I wouldn't exactly count as regular Simple editors. Swat, for example, has made less than 250 edits there in 8 months. And there are others. Adding to your tally of banned EN users going to Simple, is also N--- N---. [[User talk:Sarah|Sarah]] 22:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Swat may be relatively new but he's shooting for getting [[:simple:Sniper]] up to a good article status, so I counted him as an active user. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 04:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Goodness, what a sweeping generalization, Sarah. Please retract those comments. Yes, there's a handful of banned users, but some of the most respected and, may I say it, best editors from English Wikipedia work there (examples The Rambling Man, Giggy, Tdxiang, Isis, Phaedriel etc) and of course people like Eptalon and Creol, both checkusers and bureaucrats. Your comment is degrading to those who work hard on Simple. It's not mostly "disaffected and banned EN users" at all, and being an admin there is the same as it is here, and anywhere else. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 21:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::::I was pointing out the trend of Simple Wikipedians supporting this user being unbanned, with the converse pattern for non-Simple Wikipedians. I believe it correlates with Simple's decreased community inclusion standards and increased acceptance of social networking, relative to the English Wikipedia. That's why it's relevant. [[User:Daniel|Daniel]] ([[User talk:Daniel|talk]]) 02:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::That's because we know and trust him. You guys don't, but that should be changed. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 04:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Whoa, whoa, whoa, American Eagle.  Do YOU know the background of each and every one of these editors?  For all we know, they may have a reason why they don't trust him, such as reviewing his contribs shortly before banning, or being personally involved with some of his sockpuppet cases, yet you act like as if their reasons don't matter or that they are invalid, and that the SEW's opinions matter more. [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 05:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
American Eagle, I also find it, funny, here, that you use your status as an SEW administrator as leverage in this debate on enWP.  Whereas, in the Razorflame 9 fiasco, you simply relied on SEW contributions [http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Razorflame_9&diff=1021165&oldid=1020764] to try to discount the recent rash of opposers that had effectively sunk the ninth bid, ignoring the fact that four of the five "new" opposers were enWP administrators, or in the case of Daniel, also the chair of the Mediation Committee (as [http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Razorflame_9&diff=1021192&oldid=1021186 pointed out] by Creol).  [[User:Hbdragon88|hbdragon88]] ([[User talk:Hbdragon88|talk]]) 06:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::It doesn't matter what "status" someone has. It's the relevance of their comments here that is what matters. Whether AE is an admin on Simple, or whether Daniel is medcom chair has nothing to do with anything. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 10:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::: I have to agree with Daniel here.  You can't commit the amount of sockpuppetry he has and then get so surprised that people aren't going to be annoyed at letting you back.  Even then, if you are serious about getting back, stand up and actually respond to criticism like an adult.  To get that emotional about what people on an internet encyclopedia are saying about you is just immature.  Better he act like that now than when he first faces criticism somewhere here.  Also, looking at his simple edits, I really don't see a whole lot of interaction with others (on article contributions not on user space).  He hasn't even edited a talk page since July.  I really don't care about people's article space edits so much as talk space.  We've blocked great contributors who refuse to civilly talk about anything.  The discussions are an most important part of this project.  And frankly, the fact that he felt the need to go to the main talk page to announce his retirement concerns me.  I wouldn't feel like making a post at [[Talk:Main]] or here that I'm retiring, for whatever reason.  Maybe it's different but that's just odd.  -- [[User:Ricky81682|Ricky81682]] ([[User talk:Ricky81682|talk]]) 10:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:On the third hand, the fact that he is just eighteen years old implies that his maturity can be expected to increase significantly going forward, which in turn implies that he may yet return to constructive contributions in the future.  [[User:SheffieldSteel|<span style="color:#006622;">S<small>HEFFIELD</small>S<small>TEEL</small></span>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:SheffieldSteel|TALK]]</b></small></sup> 13:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::His latest act of melodrama over on simple wikipedia shows he certainly hasn't done much maturing in the past year.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 13:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Look, when we talk about 'unbanning" him, I and Aaron both know that that doesn't mean that your going to just turn him loose and do what ever, He and I both know that he has to prove himself, and there's only one way to do that, give him a one month trial, and if he does good let him stay. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 15:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
::Hbdragon88, you'd have an excellent point, but it is different. All the users I stated (as far as edits) were users who came over from English without any prior experience. That is different with this case. I have 1,425+ edits here, Shapiros10 has 4860+, Steelerfan-94 has 1535+, and Alison has 33180+. It's very different. Steelerfan-94, that is also my point. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 17:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
:Okay, being an outsider here, I want to know what he has done. I know he sock-puppeted, and was disruptive here, but what is keeping him from returning? I mean, I really want to see him succeed. He's proven himself to me, and I grown much trust for him. But I know the ChristianMan who has worked hard to Simple Wikipedia, not the sock-puppeteer you all know. Please, can you give the problems you have with him - I'd like to know what is yet keeping him from returning to edit here. Thank you. -- '''[[User:American Eagle|<font color="blue">'''American Eagle'''</font>]] ([[User talk:American Eagle|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])''' 02:51, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::That is a fair question, on the principle that as this was a community decision it does need scrutiny, and if the strength of opinion of people whom I trust is any indication, the diffs and evidence and backstory to this are probably sitting around somewhere. (I'm also an outsider, for the record.) The question from those people seems to be (and I may have misinterpreted) whether on en, where he is likely to encounter more opposition, he is likely to behave as constructively as he has at simple. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 07:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:Allowing sockpuppeteers to return and edit legitimately only serves to degrade other legitimate users, and it also weakens the community spirit and determination to fight vandalism of all sorts from all fronts. Call me prejudiced, but I '''adamantly refuse''' to be associated with this sockpuppeteer. To me, he will always be a vandal, never a real user. Once bitten, twice shy. No matter what he does on other encyclopedias, this user is not a contributing user. Never was, certainly not now, and never will be. [[User:Arbiteroftruth|Arbiteroftruth]] ([[User talk:Arbiteroftruth|talk]]) 15:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
::Please let's just give him a one month trial. He has learned from his mistakes, he's smart enough not to do anything disruptive again, he knows that this is his last chance. I agree he should be on a leash so short, and his edit's should be reviewed after the one month trial obviously. And he wanted me to say this: "I think everyone should be aware that I have a mental illness called Bipolar disorder. I have other sicknesses that I have listed on my Simple English Wikipedia user page. Please mention them on WP:ANI." <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 23:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
:::It's unfortunate he has illnesses, but it doesn't mean we make an exception for him. I don't agree to a one month trial. His contributions (on Simple) during this whole discussion have confirmed my opinion on this. He needs to stay away for longer, and come back once he's grown up. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::He needs to '''''never''''' come back. If there was a consensus for a Global Wiki ban, I would have recommended it for the user in question here. And given how SteelersFan94 is advocating for this sockpuppeteer so fervently, I would have good reason to suggest that them two are colluding in some plot against Wikipedia as well. Alas, WP:AGF does not allow me to do that. [[User:Arbiteroftruth|Arbiteroftruth]] ([[User talk:Arbiteroftruth|talk]]) 00:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::Never is a bit harsh I think. I'll be willing to change my mind if I saw evidence of him acting like a rational individual. I don't see anything like that though. People do grow up and change though. -- [[User:How do you turn this on|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:white; background:gray;">how&nbsp;do&nbsp;you&nbsp;turn&nbsp;this&nbsp;on</span>]] 00:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::: Re: illnesses - as an occasional supporter of and reporter to SANE's [http://www.sane.org/stigmawatch/stigmawatch/stigmawatch.html StigmaWatch], and as someone with several friends with bipolar and ADHD, I get more than a tad annoyed when behaviour like this gets blamed on [[bipolar disorder]]. On looking at the Simple userpage, he only claims to have ADHD, allergies and asthma. People should accept responsibility for their own actions and try not to stigmatise others who have the exact same conditions and can edit in good faith. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 06:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Abusive sock-puppetry

Hi Steelerfan-94,

This is basically what I wished to discuss with you in email. On the 8th of May, you created two Confirmed sockpuppet accounts User:HornetFather19 and User:HornetUncle. There are also others. My questions are 1) why did you do that, and why specifically did you want banned editor User:Hornetman16 to take the blame, 2) why exactly should I not indefinitely block your account right now for abusive sock-puppetry? It bothers me enough that you were socking, but that you were doing it to ensure someone else was blamed, well .... - Alison ❤ 21:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC) This is why. I owe it to him! <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 01:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
: Steelerfan-94, please do ''not'' post private emails to a public forum like [[WP:ANI]] without the sender's permission - [[User:Alison|<span style="color:#FF823D;font-family:Monotype Corsiva">'''A<span style="color:#FF7C0A;">l<span style="color:#FFB550;">is</span>o</span>n'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Alison|❤]]</sup> 01:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::It's not, it' from my talk page. And I'm making me tea and cookies. I'll pick back up on this tomorrow. <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 01:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::I'll simply confirm it came verbatim from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASteelerfan-94%2FUserpage&diff=218714708&oldid=216708436 this diff], upon a quick investigation. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 05:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::We're not going to unban Hornetman to ease your guilty conscience.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 06:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

:::::By now this thread is only becoming a drama magnet and a lousy attempt to clean a user's image. We already have what is being asked for here, consensus has been established before and the current result is leaning the same way. For the sake of avoiding more HM related drama lets leave it here and close the thread, otherwise we will continue seeing rants and "melancholic" posts trying to play the system. Enough is enough. - [[User:Caribbean H.Q.|<b><span style="color:#0000DD;"><span style="color:#0066FF;">Ca<span style="color:#0099FF;">ri<span style="color:#00CCFF;">bb<span style="color:#00EEFF;">e</span>a</span></span>n</span>~</span><span style="color:#FF3333;">H.</span><span style="color:#FFCC00;">Q.</span></b>]] 06:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
::::::Agreed. I think this one should go to the archives. [[User talk:Orderinchaos|Orderinchaos]] 10:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Ironic, isn't it? All this drama was initiated by a sock puppeteer/advocate of a sock puppeteer/crusader against drama on Wikipedia... [[User:GaryColemanFan|GaryColemanFan]] ([[User talk:GaryColemanFan|talk]]) 18:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:That's not why I'm doing it. No one here new I did it so what "image" did I need to redeem? And the reason I did it was because I knew/know that he's changed. Besides what's one month to see if he's changed? <font face=tahoma>[[User:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">SteelersFan</span>''']][[User talk:Steelerfan-94|'''<span style="background:Black;color:Yellow">94</span>''']]</font> 14:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Are there actually any admins who are even willing to entertain the idea of unblocking him?  I interacted with him plenty of times during his stay here and saw nothing promising.  Unless there is an admin seriously considering unblocking him, it's time to close this and move on with life. --[[User:B|B]] ([[User talk:B|talk]]) 21:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
:As it is clear there is no consensus right now to lift the ban, I've marked the issue resolved.--[[User:Atlan|Atlan]] ([[User talk:Atlan|talk]]) 02:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)